Hushing the Nay-Sayers on Cavalry in 8th Ed - Page 2 - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #11
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    Other factors to the effectiveness of Cav units might also be whether they cause Fear? A lot of cav out there don't cause fear, but your more elite cav units either do or are immune (Frenzy, for example). Ld 8 with Cold Blooded is pretty handy too. Predatory Fighter is handy, but not always reliable.

    I haven't played against Empire or done research on them in 8th Ed, but the Demigryphs look pretty awesome. My shop has a tourney next month and one of the players has an all cav Empire army with a unit of 8 Demigryphs (I think it was 8 and not 6 because I was wondering what he did with the 3rd Model). Anyway, not to say he will use that same list next tourney, but if I face him, what problems would I be facing besides Stomp and probably Fear?)

    Also, Ravenblade said he runs a unit of 10-12 Cold Ones, so maybe that's the magic number for us? Antithesis posted about 4 Crushers and Lord (MoK on Daemonic Steed) as the best Hammer, so maybe that's the best for Warhammer (the Post backed up by modern science and technology suggests so!). In Colorado I saw a guy with hundreds of Spider Riders. (Don't know how effective an all Spider Army is, but the units were ridiculously deep in ranks.)

    So I think we can all agree that either players who hate Cav are using them wrong, or not enough of them in a unit.


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  3. #12
    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzillafan801 View Post
    Other factors to the effectiveness of Cav units might also be whether they cause Fear?
    Fear is very unreliable. Many enemies are immune. Most enemies will pass the test.

    I haven't played against Empire or done research on them in 8th Ed, but the Demigryphs look pretty awesome. My shop has a tourney next month and one of the players has an all cav Empire army with a unit of 8 Demigryphs (I think it was 8 and not 6 because I was wondering what he did with the 3rd Model). Anyway, not to say he will use that same list next tourney, but if I face him, what problems would I be facing besides Stomp and probably Fear?)
    The main problem with Empire cav spam list is that literally the whole army has a 1+ save and is M7 Swiftstride. Anything lower than strength 5 is pretty useless against mass 1+ armour. However, any non-Demigryph units of his are also quite useless when not charging.

    In my opinion Lizardmen are horribly bad against that type of Empire army. Try to get some points of him and stay alive.

    Also, Ravenblade said he runs a unit of 10-12 Cold Ones, so maybe that's the magic number for us?
    I dispute that heavily. He was under the mistaken impression that disrupting ranks = cancelling steadfast. That is not true. Furthermore, he is talking about Dark Elf Cold One Knights which are slightly different. They are slightly better at supporting attacks than Saurus Cold One Cavalry, so there is more merit to deploying the Elves in deeper units.

    Antithesis posted about 4 Crushers and Lord (MoK on Daemonic Steed) as the best Hammer, so maybe that's the best for Warhammer (the Post backed up by modern science and technology suggests so!).
    Crushers are Monstrous Cavalry which is a totally different unit type.

    In Colorado I saw a guy with hundreds of Spider Riders. (Don't know how effective an all Spider Army is, but the units were ridiculously deep in ranks.)
    They are a pretty atrocious unit. Deployed in ranks they are basically very expensive goblins that can move slightly faster and cast 4 times as much.

    Furthermore, spider riders are Fast Cavalry, not real combat cavalry like Saurus.

  4. #13
    LO Zealot d_k_patt's Avatar
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    I have lots of cav only lists my dark elves my high elves, brets and empire all are very effective my empire is 3 units of 14 knights with great weapons priest in each and a Lvl 4 light for biros and speed of light for 2 attacks 10ws i10 double movement elves similar units brets 15 Lance breaks most things dark elves little different my doom locks drop tough to pummel units with my rxb until my cold ones and chariots hit home

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  6. #14
    Senior Member Ravenblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kroxigor01 View Post
    So do any unit.
    Yes, but cavalry are the best at getting into positions to charge flanks and rears because of their maneuverability.


    Quote Originally Posted by kroxigor01 View Post
    This is false. Flanking only denies rank bonus, not steadfast.
    My bad, I meant rank bonus. But 10-12 is still the optimum size for cavalry vs infantry I have found. The exception are Chaos Knights, 5 of them will do the job.
    And yes, the vast majority of my experience comes from Dark Elf Cold One Knights, but I have had a few games with Lizardmen Saurus Cavalry. What I found with them is they give a nice bit of pace into a relatively slow army.
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  7. #15
    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    Yes, but cavalry are the best at getting into positions to charge flanks and rears because of their maneuverability.
    Monsters and Flyers can flank just fine to though. For example no Lizard player is going to drop Stegs and no Empire player is going to drop Demigryphs because they "need more flankers".

    But 10-12 is still the optimum size for cavalry vs infantry I have found.
    I don't think that claim has much weight.

    The back rank of models give (Saurus Cav) the following offensive properties in addition to having double the wounds:
    21% more attacks (25% if the rules are Errata'd so that Supporting Attacks can proc Predatory Fighter)
    Combat resolution (+1CR from ranks, up to +3CR by disrupting)
    Steadfast against things with 1 rank or fewer

    I would argue that:
    The extra attacks don't justify the cost. 100% extra cost (actually a little less than 100% depending on command set up) for 21% more damage is almost certainly worse than getting a second unit of the same size.
    The Combat Resolution is useless. For the combat resolution to matter you need to be either; losing combat or winning combat against a non-steadfast enemy.
    The Steadfast is useless unless you are losing combat (against a very small unit or monster) by enough that an unmodified test is too risky, but aren't taking enough casualties to remove said steadfast... That seems almost mutually exclusive to me.

    Don't take a unit of 12, take 2 units of 7. I believe in theory that is stronger, especially for their role.
    Last edited by kroxigor01; January 13th, 2014 at 00:56.

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    Supporting attacks can produce more attacks from Predatory Fighter (nothing in the Army book to say otherwise at least. Don't know if there was something else out there saying it couldn't.)

    I'm still going to defend the 12 model unit of Cold Ones because of what I have seen with them in my own games. I have not fought against Warriors of Chaos or Ogres, but fighting against High Elves, Slaanesh Daemons, and VC, they did pretty well. I used them as a supporting unit, or as an anvil against a smaller unit (25 Skeletons for example). 2x units of 7 might work out just as well, but I honestly think you and I are going to be on the opposite side of the fence on this. You are using a small unit of cavalry in an orthodox role under the current rules set by supporting with flanks and chasing down war machines. I am using a larger block to tarpit and support other units with a flank attack.

    A full command and the extra rank give me more of an advantage than a unit of 7, so it helps to tarpit smaller units. 7 models will have 28 attacks (assuming there's no champion), while my unit pumps out 30 attacks. (This is probably the exact wrong way to figure out probability but...30 divided by 6 is 5. So potentially 35 attacks.)

    All I'm saying is that you shouldn't just give up on Cavalry just yet.

    On another note, the guy at the game store that had given up on Cavalry (and thus prompting this post) also tried to convince me to run my spearmen in a horde formation. I found this didn't work during the store's last tournament, so I run 42 spearmen in a 7x6 block. This packs quite the punch! With this being said, perhaps Lizards have decent cavalry and foot soldiers and so can operate in an unorthodox fashion? Just theory, of course.

    Anyway, I guess the best thing to do is for me to try 2x units of 7 and you guys could try a unit of 12 with FC and Spears.

  9. #17
    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzillafan801 View Post
    Supporting attacks can produce more attacks from Predatory Fighter (nothing in the Army book to say otherwise at least. Don't know if there was something else out there saying it couldn't.)
    Page 47 of the BRB:

    "(a warrior using supporting attacks) can only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects."

    The Lizardmen book simply calls for 6s to cause the warrior to "immediately make another attack" which seems pretty expressly forbidden by the above BRB rule in the case of supporting attacks.

    You are using a small unit of cavalry in an orthodox role under the current rules set by supporting with flanks and chasing down war machines. I am using a larger block to tarpit and support other units with a flank attack.
    I don't think there are enough situations where Cold Ones are more effective tarpits than regular Saurus to justify that role for me.

    7 models will have 28 attacks (assuming there's no champion), while my unit pumps out 30 attacks. (This is probably the exact wrong way to figure out probability but...30 divided by 6 is 5. So potentially 35 attacks.)
    My count is 28 base that can all predatory vs 31 base (you forgot your champion?), 25 of which can predatory. That ends up normally being ~33.67 vs ~35.17. But the units are different widths so I don't think the comparison is very fair.

    All I'm saying is that you shouldn't just give up on Cavalry just yet.
    As I said, I haven't given up on all cavalry, I am just very critical of their effectiveness. If you want to win you should be critical of all potential selection. 7 cav is already almost a Steg of points.

    On another note, the guy at the game store that had given up on Cavalry (and thus prompting this post) also tried to convince me to run my spearmen in a horde formation. I found this didn't work during the store's last tournament, so I run 42 spearmen in a 7x6 block. This packs quite the punch! With this being said, perhaps Lizards have decent cavalry and foot soldiers and so can operate in an unorthodox fashion? Just theory, of course.
    I personally think horde units are almost always crap. They are impossible to get into favourable combats, and unlike small units, actually make it harder for your OTHER units to get favourable combats. I'm also a hater of Core Saurus with spears and in such large units, but I will agree with you on the ridiculousness of trying to deploy them in horde. They are among worst infantry unit to horde in the game.

    Anyway, I guess the best thing to do is for me to try 2x units of 7 and you guys could try a unit of 12 with FC and Spears.
    I'm not advocating 2x7, I'm using 2x7 as an argument for how 12x1 is bad. I think 1x7 is the most I would take.

  10. #18
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    Yeah, pretty embarrassing I forgot my own Champion!

    Okay, forgot about the BRB part about not being able to generate more attacks.

    Yes, I agree the Stegadon is BA, and should be in every list, but that would go off of tournament list versus aesthetics. (A Godzilla figure as a Carnosaur proxy would be the best Warhammer fig, but it's not exactly on every Lizardman's tournament list.)

    I will spare the innocents on a forum post on why you should run a block of 7x6 Saurus with spears. (I can hear the gasps of relief over the net right now.)

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