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  1. #1
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    ETC WoC against DE

    First, a bit of context.

    So, I was a WH40k player for a lot of time but stopped playing, and recently a few of my friends told me they were playing some Warhammer Fantasy using a computer program (they have models, but not enough for the kind of games they like to play). They asked me if I wanted to play and I said yes, and since I used Chaos Space Marines when I played 40k, I figured I would try WoC.

    So I started playing. The games were 2500 points. First game against Ogres was a very narrow victory. Second game against Wood Elves was a narrow victory too, but I started winning more easily. And then, in what my friends called "a rape train with no brakes" I defeated Lizardmen, Skaven, Empire and Brettonia. So with all victories and no loses, one of my friends said he had enough and he challenged me to a game using ETC rules. His Dark Elves (his main army) against my Warriors of Chaos.

    So I might be a bit of a newbie in WHFB, but I realize that the worst thing about Warriors of Chaos is how easy it is to simply stay away from them, shoot them a lot and then run them over when they have been softened (or simply keep shooting at them until they are dead). Usually I'm not competitive. I try to take what I feel are the best options for an strategy I have in mind, yes, but I don't get out of my way to use "that list that's so awesome" and that kind of stuff, but the way my friend worded the challenge was quite annoying, to say the least, involving certain things that had nothing to do with Warhammer. So now I really want to beat his ass on our game. It isn't going to take place until, at the very least, July, as we both have finals. So I have lots of time to prepare.

    I haven't played against him using Dark Elves, but I do know a few things about his playstyle:
    -He WILL take a lvl 4 Supreme Sorceress with Lore of Life and a lvl 2 Sorceress with either Lore of Metal or Lore of Dark Magic. Considering I'm WoC, I'm guessing Lore of Metal.
    -Doomfire Warlocks. He loves them. However there's a bit of mindgames with this one, as he knows I know he loves them, so he might no take them thinking that I will take some Hellstriders.
    -Black Ark Corsairs. In most of his lists, these are what fills his Core, along with Darkshards.

    I'm guessing he will make a heavy shooty/army, able to shoot at me for 2/3 turns and then charge what remains of my forces. So I want to say a big "No" at him during magic phase and maybe shooting phase. So I made a few possible lists. They might no be really suited to defeating the Dark Elves, but hey, I'm looking for criticism. Remember this is done using ETC rules, so 50% max on Lords, 50% max on Heroes, 25% min on Core, 50% max on Special, 25% max on Rare, and I also have some limits in my options.

    List Number One:

    Lords (500pts):
    Daemon Prince (500pts):
    Chaos armour, Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic Flight, Lore of Death, Wizard Level 4
    Chaos Mutations & Powers: Scaled Skin (5+), Soul Feeder
    Magic Items: Channeling Staff, Dragonhelm


    Heroes (695pts):
    Chaos Sorcerer (320pts):
    Lore of Undeath, Mark of Tzeentch, Wizard Level 2
    Mounted on Chaos Warshrine with Mark of Tzeentch
    Magic Items: Dispel Scroll
    Exalted Hero (185pts):
    Barded Chaos Steed, Great weapon, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield
    Battle Standard Bearer with Banner of Swiftness
    Festus the Leechlord (190pts)


    Core (620pts):
    Chaos Chariot (125pts):
    Mark of Nurgle
    Chaos Chariot (125pts):
    Mark of Nurgle
    Chaos Chariot (120pts):
    Mark of Tzeentch
    Chaos Warhounds (36pts):
    6x Warhounds
    Chaos Warriors (214pts):
    12x Chaos Warrior with Mark of Tzeentch, Shields and Champion


    Special (585pts):
    Chaos Knights (315pts):
    6x Chaos Knight with Mark of Tzeentch, Ensorcelled weapons, Champion and Standard Bearer with Blasted Standard
    Chosen (270pts):
    10x Chosen with Mark of Nurgle, Great Weapons, Shields, Champion and Standard Bearer

    Total: 2400 Points
    I've made a few other lists that could be used, but this is the one that I feel would be safer to use. I'll probably upload some of the others later.

    Last edited by DBlues; June 9th, 2015 at 23:30.

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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Hey Blues, welcome to the forum, and to WoC! Good to hear that you've already been having lots of success with them. Out of curiosity, "9th edition" or 'Age of Sigmar' is set to drop in July - are you guys going to 'update'? It's not as big a deal for your lot, since you're playing online, "sans models", so if anything gets pulled, you'll always have your sprites.

    Only other thing I've got to say before we start is that you guys should just not even bother with ETC. It's restricting, but it's not a very good comp set, as it's one of the weaker restrictions you're going to see in any format. For example, I have a devastating Empire army that I would happily take to an uncomped tournament, and has beaten uncomped Daemons, Dark Elves, and (the player who introduced me to the list) stomped my own WoC army. My group has kindly requested that I not play that army against them without warning - it is totally legal under the ETC rules.
    The 'Swedish Comp' system is better if you're trying to balance the game, but it's a lot more complex. It basically adds an entire extra layer of 'points' to track, and you have to do a little more math, but it gives your army a score between 0 and 14, with 0 being the cheesiest army ever put onto a table, and 14 being an army that was written by your 2-year-old niece with a pink crayon. The advantage to the Swedish system is that players often assign "underdog points", which is the only way to make Comp work. Basically, for every 1pt of comp you have above your opponent (indicating you taking a softer list), you get +100 Victory Points at the end of the game. Therefore, while that 0-Army will almost definitely demolish a 14-Army, the player with the softer list is getting a whopping 1400VPs at the end of the game, just for showing up.

    But in regards to your list:

    Daemon Prince:
    I wouldn't bother with the Channeling Staff on this guy. Most people really prefer the Sword of Striking on him. DragonHelm or Enchanted Shield are also good takes on this one, but you've already got Scaly Skin, so that answers your question. I'd also grab Flaming Breath over Soul Feeder, if I could squeeze it in. Both are good, but the Breath attack makes him scary in a fight.
    This guy costs not only a lot of points, but he's also ripping apart your Comp. He's very susceptible to shooting, and to "direct damage" type spells in the magic phase. He's a single model, he doesn't have any 'ablative wounds' in a regiment to pass those hits on to. You're going to spend a lot of effort trying to keep this guy on his feet. Massed shooting will also bring down a Daemon Prince. The only real way to protect them (aside from leaping from cover to cover) is to bring multiple Chimeras to help create an "airforce" and force your opponent to split his fire between multiple threats.
    They're a popular character choice, but a lot of players have sort of backed off from them. Personally, I just take a L4 Wizard and leave it at that for my Lords. He can roll alongside the rest of my army and actually give them his Leadership if they need it.

    Chaos Sorcerer
    First of all, Shrines aren't worth it. Not on their own, and definitely not as a mount.
    Secondly, you have Festus already. Why bother with having a pair of L2s? You're not going to have enough dice to fuel them both, and extra L2s isn't going to help shut down his L4s or generate extra dice. It's much better to go "character lite" with WoC, and use those points to get more "boots on the ground" to soak up damage. WoC are one of the smallest armies on the table in any format, so there's no point making them even smaller by funeling all of your points into single-model characters.

    Exalted Hero
    I'd give this guy the Scaled Skin, put the Enchanted Shield on your Daemon Prince. You can't use a Shield concurrently with a Greatweapon, so all it's doing is giving him a 1+ against shooting and magic, and if he's in a unit, he doesn't really need either.
    Don't give him a Magic Standard - any units that want/need a magic banner, can just take one. It's better to have magic items on this guy.
    Otherwise, half decent character, considering ETC doesn't really like the "Unkillable Hero" (Daemonic Steed, 1+3++ with Third Eye)

    Festus
    Not bad, but you're only taking him for the Regen and Poison, really. Not sure if he's worth it. I've gone both ways with him, I typically skip him. I take my L4 and my BSB, and that's it for characters. Festus usually gets cut for the same reason that I'd cut your L2 - save points for more guys in the ranks.

    Chariots
    Not bad units. Not sure that I'd bother with Mark of Nurgle on them, or even really bother with Slaanesh. I'd go either Unmarked to keep the cost down, or Khorne to make them into brutal, brutal killing machines (6S5 Crew attacks each is nasty)
    Also, comp is belting you for taking so many of these. Not really fair, so I'd probably drop one of them and use it to make your Warriors regiment larger, and spend the "pool point" on something else (Crushers).

    Sword'n'Board Warriors
    Tzeentch HW&S Warriors are hard as nails, no doubt about it. That said, they won't kill anything, and so their primary use is adding Ranks to a combat and/or "tarpitting" an enemy regiment. WoC isn't exactly a "hammer and anvil" type of army though - everything is made of hammers, you should be ready and willing to pummel your opponent into submission, and "go it solo" if you have to. To that end, I'd bulk this unit up to at least 20 models (5x4) in a 2500pt game, and would really love to see them get to 24 or even 25 strong. 24 with Halberds will always be my "go-to" unit though. Wounding Elves on a 2+ and forgetting that they have armor is hilarious.
    You only need a champion to take challenges off of Festus or anyone else in the regiment. You also need a Standard Bearer though, because he's a free +1CR. Musician wouldn't hurt either. Champions are typically the least useful command option in any regiment.

    Knights
    Tzeentch Knights are like Tzeentch Warriors. Survivable, but they're not hitting nearly as hard as they could. Nurgle is also more survivable in combat, than Tzeentch. Worth pointing out. I would also skip the Blasted Standard. The math has been done, and against low-strength hits it actually hurts you more than helps. I'd take the Lichebone Pennant on these guys, for the 5+ Ward (stacks with Tzeentch) against Metal Magic. That, or the Banner of Swiftness if you really think you need it so badly.

    Chosen
    NOPE! They're just really expensive Chaos Warriors, and they don't count towards minimum Core. Give me one good reason to take these (and no, the EoTG roll doesn't count, because it only works on T1 most times, and only affects your Champ anyways).
    We've done the math - the likelihood of you using all the extra rolls (Champ with Chalice, Pregame roll, Shrine) in order to get an extra Daemon Prince is so abysmally low that you might as well just buy a second Daemon Prince for points. Also - no Greatweapons on small blocks of Warriors. Just don't do it man. I know you're fighting Elves and you're going to strike last anyways, but it's really just bad. Firstly, you're tailoring to fight a specific army, which is wrong (he shouldn't take Metal "just because your WoC") and secondly, you don't need S6 against Elves.

    Over All
    It's odd that you're not taking Crushers - they're nasty. Have you looked through the Quickstart Guide in this forum, or browsed some of the other army lists for ideas? Pretty sure that my WoC army doesn't hurt the comp (comes right in at 5, if I recall) and it's pretty mean. I've smacked around some Dark Elves with it in the past. It gives a pretty good idea of the kind of advice I'm throwing to you, since it's the army I'm currently playing after "working out the kinks" in a lot of my other lists.
    My List (for an example)
    Quickstart Guide
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  4. #3
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    I see. Apparently my list had way more "wrong" things than I imagined. I guess it's normal, considering the amount of time I've been playing.

    About the update to 9th, we talked about that, and we decided that we would wait to see how 9th is (waiting for a few months) before updating.

    Regarding the list, the only thing that I can defend there is the warshrine. And not because of the warshrine, but because apparently I'm very lucky with dice rolls. In six games, I've got at least one Daemon Prince from rolls on five of them. And against Skaven I got three Daemon Princes by the end of my second turn. I know I shouldn't rely on luck, but I feel like I could use it.

    And although I looked at some guides, they were probably not the most competitive. Let's see if this is any better:
    Lords (355pts)

    Chaos Sorcerer Lord (355pts)

    Lore of Death, Mark of Nurgle, Wizard Level 4
    Magic Items:

    Dispel Scroll, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation
    Heroes (424pts)

    Exalted Hero (234pts)

    Barded Chaos Steed, Battle Standard Bearer, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield
    Chaos Mutations & Powers:

    Scaled Skin
    Magic Items:

    Sword of Might, Talisman of Endurance
    Festus the Leechlord (190pts)

    Core (631pts)

    Chaos Chariot (120pts)

    Mark of Khorne
    Chaos Warhounds (30pts)

    5x Chaos Warhound
    Chaos Warhounds (36pts)

    6x Chaos Warhound
    Chaos Warriors (445pts)

    20x Chaos Warriors with Mark of Nurgle, Great weapons, Shields, Champion, Musician and Standard Bearer with Banner of Swiftness
    Special (590pts)

    Chaos Knights (315pts)

    6x Chaos Knights with Mark of Tzeentch, Ensorcelled Weapons, Musician and Standard Bearer with Blasted Standard
    Chimera (275pts)

    Chimera with Flaming Breath and Regenerating Flesh
    Rare (400pts)

    Skullcrushers of Khorne (400pts)

    5x Skullcrushers with Ensorcelled Weapons and Standard Bearer

    As an alternative to Festus (which is really there to provide buffs for the Chaos Warriors) I was thinking about a Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle, maybe giving the Chaos Familiar to the Sorcerer, and doing basicly the same job, but slightly cheaper/with more options

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  6. #4
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Lonely Chimera is going to become a liability once he gets away from your General - he's on Ld5 or something on his own, and Frenzied.
    Greatweapons are still an odd take - remember that you're giving up I5. Granted, Dark Elves hate, so they'll still get their rerolls, but typically you want to not tailor a list for specific foes. That's why I always go Halberds on my Warriors - strike before almost everything, negate Elf rerolls on everyone but Dark Elves and a few specific units, and they're still S5.

    The thing about looking up guides and trying to get advice for Warriors, is that it's actually the most solid book in the game - there aren't any really terrible choices out there to hang up on. It's not like trying to build a Brettonian army where you either come out with a rock-hard nightmare machine, or a total stinker. WoC has a lot of flexibility for players to field what they want to see. So it's not that you did anything "wrong", it's just that depending on your playstyle and what you're after, there were changes that I personally could suggest. But almost every WoC player will steer you a bit closer to their own list, and that means you'll get pulled and pushed all over the place. For example, if you read the 1D4Chan guide, they seem to play in a very different meta than what I do, and I know that other users here are in the same boat- they play against different armies more frequently, so what works for one person against a certain set of opponents, won't work for another against their regular group.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  7. #5
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    If specifically meaning against DE, then I will comment on that and not ETC in general. And CaptainSarathai knows a lot and has good opinions, but I don't agree with all he said down there 100%!


    Lords (500pts):Daemon Prince (500pts):
    DP is awesome and good and sweet. But turn him into slaneesh due to points costs and also synergy versus DE in general. Not many run warlocks anymore in DE army, as they are very high in ETC point costs, but the movement impairing effects that the DP has are insane. Even a slaneesh DP can be tossed into most fights versus DE army, specially if he has the normal OTS/DBG/Charmed Shield combo. DP is also easy to play, if you are a beginner and a good formidable pillarstone to play around. Just be careful about getting him shot up by repeaterboltthrowers etc...

    Chaos Sorcerer (320pts):
    I love 2ndary wizards for scrolls, I don't know how to not take them. Just ditch the warshrine, rather add steed or something to tag along knights.

    Exalted Hero (185pts):
    Make him Daemonic Mounted up with barding and 3+ ward. Too good to pass, even if it is two comp points. He is just brutally effective and can change the tide alone. Not to mention can charge into some fights, if you don't get him wrecked by killstealermount and champion duels...

    Festus the Leechlord (190pts)
    Dun play him myself, no idea. I wouldn't bother.

    Core (620pts):
    Chaos Chariot (125pts):
    I like nurgle chariots and slaneesh. Nurgle chariots are specially good versus DE as you have impact hits to wreck the enemy with (bypassing ASF) and still -1 to hit and you can win combats with the charge.

    Chaos Warhounds (36pts):
    doges ftw

    Chaos Warriors (214pts):
    Not recommended. I would personally rather take as many chariots as possible, dogs nad then marauder cavalry.

    Special (585pts):
    Chaos Knights (315pts):
    I have 15 knights painted, but haven't found a good list for them. Only way they have pulled their weight really is by soaking up a wild rider charge and punting them over in return.

    Chosen (270pts):
    Deadweight, but cool models and lore.


    Good things you missed from your list vs DE:
    Skullcrushers (really, they are good pretty much anywhere and fun to play)
    Trolls (not many DE really bother with flaming banners)

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