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  1. #1
    Senior Member sendaf's Avatar
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    1500 Warriors Help vs. Gunlines!

    I played 2 games against an Empire army today and got absolutely creamed. I admit my army list was sub-par and he also got really lucky at certain points in each game. However I still feel like even if luck was more balanced I had no chance. I really couldn't get my squads into combat fast enough. I've written up a new army list and I really need your help, I face mostly an empire gunline (cannon, volley gun 10 handgunners, 10 crossbows, 2 wizards) and some orcs/gobbos and high elves on the side. However please gear the advice as if I am joining a all comer's tourney because I really don't like to tailor my lists.

    Heroes 348
    Chaos Sorcerer 195
    Lvel 2, Nurgle,
    Chaos Familiar, dispel scroll

    Exalted Hero 153
    BSB, Banner of Swiftness
    Shield

    Core
    24 Chaos Warriors 453
    Full Command
    Standard of Disc
    Nurgle/shields
    Both heroes here

    32 Marauders 320
    Slaanesh/GW

    5 Chaos Warhounds
    5 chaos warhounds

    Special 215
    5 Chaos Knights 215
    Ensocelled Weapons

    Rare
    2 Chaos Spawn 100

    Thanks for looking at my list and any advice you could give when facing gunline list or tips for this type of list will be really appreciated

    "Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"

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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Small games with elite armies are hard. Empire has a lot of really good rules, stacked onto cheap characters, and a solid shooting phase; all things which are amazingly good in small games. It's worth pointing out that Empire are also nowhere near the push-overs that most people seem to think they are. My group plays and will continue to play 8th edition, and I've already had a short sprint from "zero" to "please never play me with that list again" using my old Empire army. Granted, that's at 2500pts, but it's vicious, and they only get better as the games get smaller. Conversely, I play WoC and all the Elves, and they've got a very tough time in small games because they just can't afford anything.

    First thing we'll get out of the way right now:
    If your mate's using Lore of Metal against you, he needs to be using Lore of Metal against everyone. This is especially true in low point games, because he can bring 2 Wizards for the price of our cheapest one. We will not "out magic" Empire at this points level without crippling our own lists. Empire can comfortably fit a L4 into their army at 1500pts, WoC don't have that luxury.
    Using Lore of Metal specifically against Chaos is unfair at any points level, because all of our options can be counted on to have at least a 3+ armor, unlike any other army in the game. I would say that it's like using Death against Undead/Dwarfs/Ogres/Lizards, except that only Purple Sun is only one spell among 7 - for Metal, the signature spell is literally enough to rip apart our units, and we're the only army where that's true.
    However, in low point games, it's even worse, because there are plenty of reasons why you don't even want a Sorcerer in a small game like this. Ditching your Sorc and just trying to get as many "boots on the ground" as possible is an entirely viable strategy.

    So on to your list
    If you know it's sub-par, why not post what you'd think the "par version" is, here? For example, you probably know that the Marauders should go out the door, flat on their butts. What else is "no good" in your opinion? If it's not working for you, replace it with something that is.

    Sorcerer
    You need a General. That much is true. However, you want to keep him as cheap as possible because you also need a BSB, and you're only getting a "Hero" for your General - his Ld isn't that much better (if at all) than your regular units. You only "need" the General because the rules say that you've got to have one. Answer?
    Either field a "naked" L2 Wizard just for the Dispel ability. Maybe hand him a scroll. I also really like the Opal Amulet for a cheap "miscast protection program" or just as a save on any of my "throw away" characters. He's literally only the general in name only. If you can get by without a Wizard (you can, if he avoids Metal) then you should honestly just build a nasty little Exalted Hero with bare minimum pricing. Toss him on a Daemonic Steed, chuck him the Charmed Shield and a Halberd, lodge him in a unit and have at it.

    BSB
    This guy needs to live through the game. Every army should have a BSB, for the rerolls. They'll bite you in the butt if you don't have them. You can get by without if you go with MoS or MoK on just about everything in your army, but you'll still risk failing a Break Check if you lose combat. So I would prefer to have the BSB.
    Bigger armies spend lots on keeping the General and the BSB alive. As a small army like Chaos, we can't afford that. The BSB is the guy that you want to have standing then, his bonus is vastly better than the General's leadership bubble. All the points therefore, go here.
    I would seriously suggest "The Unkillable Build" and maybe even tossing him onto a Disc. Don't give him a Magic Banner - you're spending a ton of points on a 2W model who's carrying a flag cheap enough for one of your units to grab. That banner is not that important. What is important is having your rerolls, and having a character who can smash a whole unit by himself at this points level.
    My suggestion:
    Exalted of Tzeentch w/ Charmed Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Third Eye, Halberd/GW, Disc/BardedDaemonic, Flaming Breath would also be optional

    The disc is really only there if you really want to kill off his artillery. Otherwise you can still shut down his shooting pretty easily and are better off on the Barded Daemonic. Start the game in the Knights, and you can always charge out later. The build should have a 1+ or 2+ save, with a 3+ Ward that rerolls 1's (very hard to kill). On the Steed, he's 3W and T5, so he's basically a Lord. On the Disc, he flies.

    Warriors
    You don't need a Champion. They're only there for eating Challenges, and two things;
    1) your BSB isn't in this unit
    2) even if he was, Chaos Heroes are the equal to most armies' Lords - you aren't going to see much that can bring down an Exalted in a challenge at this level
    So that saves you a few points right out of the gates.

    Additionally, the Standard of Discipline isn't worth it if you've got the BSB nearby. Just toss them the Banner of Swiftness and be done with it.
    If you're going "Sword'n'Board" and you face gunlines - go Tzeentch. 5+ Parry and 6+ Ward against everything else. Nurgle is about 10% better if the enemy is rolling 'To Hit' in melee. Tzeentch isn't as good, but it works against everything. In a small game like this, against Empire as a regular foe, I would go Tzeentch every time - even if you gave them Halberds (which you should).
    24 is huge for a Sword'n'Board regiment, too. You shouldn't be taking that many casualties, unless maybe it's from the shooting, in which case he's not focusing his fire on anything else. Getting just a handful of these guys across the board should be enough to route a gunline-style Empire army in combat. You don't need much more than your first rank to see off a block of 10 Staties.
    I'd go with 18. 6x3 and MoT. Give them Shields. Halberds if you can afford it. Banner of Swiftness if you can afford that too.

    Marauders
    You've got your minimum 325pts of Core from the Warriors. Why are these here? Anything in Core is usually over priced, as per the "Core Tax". The stuff in Special is a better "bang for it's buck" depending (Warriors > Chosen). So if you can drop Marauders and get more Knights, or drop Marauders and get some Crushers, or seriously anything that is NOT Marauders - do it.


    Dogs
    A side note. Everyone knows to take Dogs. In small games, you're losing the deployment war already. In games against a gunline that doesn't move and always deploys in the same formation, you don't even need to know where his drops are going. Dogs are just points on a plate for him. If you guys change lists based on opponents (a huge no-no in my group and just about anywhere) then drop the dogs when you play this joker. That or use them for cover, put him at -2 if he tries to shoot "over" the Dogs into your juicy units behind. Worst case, it buys you a turn while he murders the dogs. Best case, he keeps stupidly plugging impossible shots into your Warriors/Knights following up behind.

    Core
    An alternative here is to take "throw-aways" in your Core. Put Vanguard on your Hounds for funsies (they'll buy at least a turn of shooting) and maybe even throw some cheap and cheerful MCav units in there. Forsaken are also good. I know, it sounds wierd, but they are. Especially in smaller games where their oddball attacks can just go off the chain and rip whole units to pieces. Plus Slaanesh for Swiftstride is always cool. And they're already M6, which is silly. One unit should probably get pretty close to your minimum Core. If not, add Dogs to flavor.


    Knights
    Well, yeah. I'd go with Lances, actually. Small games like this, not sure that you shouldn't just burst whatever you charge. Lances are cheaper anyways, and you (and the horse you rode in) are still S4 with a 1+ in every subsequent round of combat.
    Again, Tzeentch. Maybe the Blasted Standard, or put your General here (whatever you're using) and give him the Iron Curse Icon to help bounce the warmachines.
    Cavalry is a hard sell against a gunline. If they're the only fast target, they're the Light Brigade and they're going to get blown to bits to the tune of Iron Maiden's "The Trooper". If that works for you, and buys you time for the rest of your army to get across the board - good. Just as long as you're planning on losing those Knights. Otherwise, you need to have lots of fast targets, and then you can pounce your whole army into combat on T2/3, before he has the chance to shoot all of it. Basically, something will get through, and if that something is a Chaos Knight or a decent sized unit of MCav, or (god forbid) Crushers, you're going to gut his army like a fish.

    Chaos Spawn
    Yyyyyyeah... I'd go with looking at the Marauders entry on these guys. Basically, they're good. They're chaff. They'll work, right up until they're lone models in front of a gunline. And that's your problem. If he wants, he'll shoot them down. If they want, they'll go super slow into his army and be the last viable target that he can shoot at. Their average move is 7". That's 1" slower than your Infantry, without the Banner of Swiftness. Face the facts- they're not getting across the table. Put the points into something that will.

    Beating Your Mate
    Playing against Gunlines is hard. Mostly just because it's boring. You move, he shoots, you move, he shoots, you charge, he dies. That's it. If you get to do anything other than move models and maybe throw a few spells, you win the game. Otherwise you just spend several turns frustratedly watching your army get wrecked.
    If you want to beat him at this game, then roll scenarios. 'Battle for the Pass' is actually every gunline's favorite game, but it's really easy to make them hate it. Just deploy along the back of your DZ, single-file and with your solos out of sight of his cannons, and then every turn announce that you do nothing. This will frustrate him to end, as there's no way for him to actually win the game - it will take too long for him to move his guns into 24" to be able to kill any units, and even dual cannons can only kill a maximum of 12 Warriors over the course of the game. When he complains that "you're not playing", just tell him "that's what it feels like to play against a gunline". Any other result you will probably auto-win, except perhaps Blood and Glory or Pitched Battle.

    Otherwise, for beating gunlines it's all about having enough terrain on the board (the only time I'm okay with using D6+4 pieces on a 6x4 table) and then overwhelming their ability to shoot you down. Either moving quickly, or bringing lots of bodies. Usually as much a combination of both as you can manage.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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  5. #3
    Senior Member sendaf's Avatar
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    Wow thanks for the post it was tons of help! My friend's list does include a block of 40ish sword and board staties with a warrior priest and a 20 man detachment of free company so I do need to make sure I have a decent chunk of a unit left for combat (hence the huge block of warriors) Also what I posted was a revamped list from what I ran so yeah I did need lots of help lol. I played last when 8th edition first came out and surprisingly a lot has changed since I last was on these forums. I revamped my list using your suggestions and put in some commentary on why I made some choices.

    Hero
    Sorcerer
    **What can I strip from the BSB to get him to level 2?**

    Exalted Hero 261
    BSB, Tzeentch
    Charmed Shield, Talisman of Pres, 3rd Eye
    Barded Daemonic Steed


    Core
    18 Chaos Warriors 341
    Tzeentch, Musician/Standard of Swiftness
    Shields
    **running 6X3 I hope there are enough left over to tackle a 40 man ranked unit**

    5 Marauder Horseman 75
    Javelin
    **Not much but its a fast unit that can harass warmachines**

    10 dogs
    **I find their disposability highly in-disposable, tactically they bring a lot to the table**

    Special
    10 Chaos Knights 440
    Lances, Tzeentch
    **would 2 groups of 5 be better? if not should I get them a command?**

    Rare
    Giant
    **I know people hate them and he won't make his points back, but he attract cannonballs and terror tests are pretty good when your opponent brings an extra wizard instead of a battle standard**

    I really don't have the money to buy new models and I don't have any crushers, forsaken etc. I have 13 points left so where could I spend them?
    "Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"

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  7. #4
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sendaf View Post
    My friend's list does include a block of 40ish sword and board staties with a warrior priest and a 20 man detachment of free company
    That mob shouldn't really scare Warriors. As you've got yours right now, you're taking maybe 1 casualty per turn and wasting his regiments on the return strikes. Target the Free Company - they're easier to kill and give you lots of free Combat Resolution. Try to avoid fighting that block at all. That's what he wants you to fight. Instead, charge in after his guns and crossbows, make that block of Staties come after you. If you do get stuck in, challenge him. He should accept with the Champ and let you kill him. If he doesn't then you can send the Champ to the back and leave the Priest caught up front where you can waylay him.

    Hero
    Sorcerer
    **What can I strip from the BSB to get him to level 2?**
    Nothing, really. And that's why you're better off just taking a naked Exalted unless your friend is being a jerk and using Lore of Metal. Worst case, take the barding off your Daemonic Steed, and drop some other stuff elsewhere to get the points from your army. You're not capped at 25% for Heroes anymore - you can go all the way up to 50% now. Check the FAQ for the main rulebook (just google it).

    Exalted Hero 261
    BSB, Tzeentch
    Charmed Shield, Talisman of Pres, 3rd Eye
    Barded Daemonic Steed
    Brick house. A Halberd really wouldn't hurt this guy though. The Charmed Shield is just there to bounce that first Cannonball, since you don't get a Look Out Sir! roll while on a Daemonic Steed. You could ride him with the Knights, and ditch the Daemonic Mount just to give him a regular Chaos Steed and get a Look Out Sir, and save some points. However, you still want to be able to "dump him out, solo" in order to chase down machines and small regiments.

    Core
    18 Chaos Warriors 341
    Tzeentch, Musician/Standard of Swiftness
    Shields
    **running 6X3 I hope there are enough left over to tackle a 40 man ranked unit**
    I already told you what to do with that unit. And if you do get stuck in against it, you'll survive the game's end. You might not break his unit, because it will be Steadfast, but you shouldn't lose combat, and it should take him too long to grind you down.

    5 Marauder Horseman 75
    Javelin
    **Not much but its a fast unit that can harass warmachines**
    Nope. They'll ride out and get shot to bits because he's afraid of them. 5 Javs isn't going to do much, you might be better off saving the points.

    10 dogs
    **I find their disposability highly in-disposable, tactically they bring a lot to the table**
    Tactically, not against a gunline. What are you going to redirect? If you get in his way, you buy yourself a turn - good for you, that means he gets an extra turn of having dogs in the way to shoot you. If he wants rid of the dogs, he shoots them. He doesn't care where you deploy your units, because the Swordsmen and Detachment go center, guns go around that, and Warmachines go 1" behind, in a small gap between units. Every. Time.
    I'm not against using Dogs, because I am against tailoring lists. But against guns, you're just handing him points on a silver platter, and even risking Panic checks.

    Special
    10 Chaos Knights 440
    Lances, Tzeentch
    **would 2 groups of 5 be better? if not should I get them a command?**
    Yes, split them. 2 units means that he has to split his fire. If the Helblaster gets lucky and kills 30 Knights, it will only actually kill 5, and the other unit will carry on unmolested.

    Rare
    Giant
    **I know people hate them and he won't make his points back, but he attract cannonballs and terror tests are pretty good when your opponent brings an extra wizard instead of a battle standard**
    He'll eat one cannonball. And then he's dead. I wouldn't count on his Terror, and if he's not going to make his points back, why sink the points into him in the first place? If your only options are the Giant or the Spawn, I'd go with the spawn - same reason as the Knights: he has to shoot them twice to kill them both.
    I really don't have the money to buy new models and I don't have any crushers, forsaken etc. I have 13 points left so where could I spend them?[/QUOTE]
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  8. #5
    Senior Member sendaf's Avatar
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    Wow I had no idea they changed the 25% cap on lords and heroes! Ok I swapped the sorcerer out for an exalted hero w/ iron curse icon and gave both heroes Halberds.

    What is a good unit setup for marauder horsemen? Khorne+Flails?

    I have ogre models would they be better then the giant? I'd drop the dogs, horsemen and giant

    I really appreciate you bringing me up to speed!
    "Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"

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