[Red Archer]

Hey there, fellow brother-captains!

I haven't versed Nids in a long time (more than two years) and I had feared it won't be until January next year, but now the faint hope for an opportunity arose. I just sat down to make a list and came up with this, but it seems too simple. Can you help me out here, am I missing anything?

I am expecting many genestealers (extended carapace), some hormagaunts, flyrant and carnifexes, probably built for speed where possible with scuttlers and leaping and all that stuff.

Thanks, guys...
Red


HQ
165 - Captain Seregon w/ bike + relic blade

Elites
210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 1 heavy flamer + 2 combi-plasma + razorback
210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 1 heavy flamer + 2 combi-plasma + razorback

Troops
185 - 4 Bikes w/ 2 plasma guns + heavy bolter attack bike
185 - 4 Bikes w/ 2 plasma guns + heavy bolter attack bike
185 - 4 Bikes w/ 2 plasma guns + heavy bolter attack bike

Fast Attack
180 - 2 Landspeeder Typhoon
180 - 2 Landspeeder Typhoon

Heavy Support
- - -

TOTAL
1,500


Tactics are easy: stay away, kill from afar, block with the razorbacks, keep the bikes alive, contest with the speeders. Bolters, heavy bolters, frag missiles shoot the horde stuff, plasmas and krak missiles take out the MCs. If I do hit close combat I'd try to break and regroup to shoot the bad boys.

I'm interested whether this would work or whether I am missing something important.

 

[realitycheque]

Normally I'd say Thunderfire Cannon or Whirlwind against 'nids, but they don't really fit your army style. I'm not a fan of plasma guns, I see why you've got them but I think they'll be a liability.

A command squad on bikes with plasmaguns however, are a totally different kettle of boiled nid.

 

[Red Archer]

Thanks for the "reality check"! A little inspiration can't hurt.
But the plasma guns aren't too bad actually. If I lose a few models to gets hot! that's okay. In 4th edition I couldn't expect a single plasma gunner to survive a game, but that's because your weapon got hot on 1 AND 2 if you double-tapped. Nowadays my plasma guns do okay.
Feel no pain would make it a lot safer, true, but I don't like command squads very much: too expensive. I'm a little low on troops already anyhow. I could drop both sternguard squads because I don't really need them, but if there aren't any major holes I'm missing I'd like to keep them because they're lovely.

So it seems the list is okay so far, not toting any major vulnerabilities (except for killing itself with plasma)? That's good, then.
Thanks for your comment, realitycheque!

 

[jy2]

Unless he's playing nidzilla, I think you'll do fine. Kill off all the troops or kill off the synapse creatures. Avoid the carnies if possible. Easy enough to do when you're bikers.

I don't quite like your sternguard configuration. I would prefer:

210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 2 heavy flamer + 1 combi-plasma + rhino
210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 2 heavy flamer + 1 combi-plasma + rhino

Nothing kills hordes quite like 2x HF's, unless you know he's playing nidzilla. But honestly I don't think you even need them. Just go all bikers like you normally do with the following changes and play the keep-away game:

165 - 4 Bikes w/ 2 flamers + heavy bolter attack bike
165 - 4 Bikes w/ 2 flamers + heavy bolter attack bike

90 - 1 Landspeeder Typhoon


One thing you need to watch out for are any dakkarants or dakkafexes. That's a hive tyrant or carnifex with 2 twin-linked devrourers. It'll mess up your army real bad. Good thing for you it's range is only 18". If you see them, concentrate fire to get rid of them first.

 

[Red Archer]

Unless he's playing nidzilla, I think you'll do fine.

Would I really be having trouble against Nidzilla? I was thinking that a potential of 8 krak missiles, 20 plasma shots, and a whole lot of hellfire (and some heavy bolters) would do the trick, even against a mass of monstrous creatures?

Kill off all the troops or kill off the synapse creatures.

Thanks for the tip!
I'll probably just kill off anything that threatens to make it into close combat first, though, and then order priority by synapse/troops/etc...

Avoid the carnies if possible. Easy enough to do when you're bikers.

Yes, that was the plan, and with all the mobility it shouldn't be hard.

I don't quite like your sternguard configuration. I would prefer:
210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 2 heavy flamer + 1 combi-plasma + rhino
210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 2 heavy flamer + 1 combi-plasma + rhino

I'll definitely consider that, thanks! I hate to lose the razorback heavy bolters, but flaming two heavy templates out a rhino seems compelling too...

But honestly I don't think you even need them.

True. But:

I could drop both sternguard squads because I don't really need them, but if there aren't any major holes I'm missing I'd like to keep them because they're lovely.

One thing you need to watch out for are any dakkarants or dakkafexes. That's a hive tyrant or carnifex with 2 twin-linked devrourers. It'll mess up your army real bad. Good thing for you it's range is only 18".

Don't really see the problem here? A carnifex with double twin-linked devourers has four shots with quite decent strength that re-roll to wound too, if I recall correctly. But statistically that's still only .88 dead bikers per turn per dakkafex - at 18"! Not something that's really worth its points. It can hurt the transports and speeders, but not reliably. The speeders should be far, far away from them anyhow...
The dakkarant has six shots and higher BS, but is worse with the wounding. So (enhanced senses and toxin sacs included) even that only amounts to 1.33 dead bikers per turn on average at 18". Not really worth its points either...
Am I getting this wrong?


Thanks for your opinion, jy2!

 

[jy2]

Would I really be having trouble against Nidzilla? I was thinking that a potential of 8 krak missiles, 20 plasma shots, and a whole lot of hellfire (and some heavy bolters) would do the trick, even against a mass of monstrous creatures?

Honestly, if it had 6-8 TMC's, you wouldn't be able to kill them off fast enough. Then again you do have the mobility to play keep-away-and-shoot should they get a little too close, though he'd probably to able to catch a couple of those units if he forms a dragnet. But that's assuming it's a true nidzilla list with a few T7, 5W, 2+ godfexes.

Thanks for the tip!
I'll probably just kill off anything that threatens to make it into close combat first, though, and then order priority by synapse/troops/etc...

Alwasy a sound strategy.

Don't really see the problem here? A carnifex with double twin-linked devourers has four shots with quite decent strength that re-roll to wound too, if I recall correctly. But statistically that's still only .88 dead bikers per turn per dakkafex - at 18"! Not something that's really worth its points. It can hurt the transports and speeders, but not reliably. The speeders should be far, far away from them anyhow...
The dakkarant has six shots and higher BS, but is worse with the wounding. So (enhanced senses and toxin sacs included) even that only amounts to 1.33 dead bikers per turn on average at 18". Not really worth its points either...
Am I getting this wrong?

A dakkafex has 8x shots (2 TLD's x 4 shots each) with re-rolls on both hits/wounds. The tyrant has 12x shots.

Dakkafex = 8x(1/2 + 1/2x1/2) x (2/3 + 1/3x2/3) x 1/3 = 1.77 wounds

Dakkarant = 12x(2/3 + 1/3x2/3) x (1/2 + 1/2x1/2) x 1/3 = 2.67 wounds

And if you're in range to plasma them, next turn they'll be able to move in range to shoot you back.

In my 'monstrous' 1500 nidzilla list, I have 2 dakkarants (1 winged), 3 dakkafexes, 2 cc-godfexes (T7, 5W, 2+) and 3 small squads of WON gaunts (without number). It is quite scary at the points level.

Then again, not many people will use such a nidzilla list in friendly games.

 

[Red Archer]

Thanks for the heads-up, jy2! This is very useful information. Rep.

Still I don't think that Nidzilla list would be too big a problem. With my mobility I do have alpha-strike capability, and my speeders, my bikes, and my sternguard can each kill one of the monstrous creatures rather reliably in one turn of shooting. After that my sternguard are probably engaged and lost, but they will take the speed out of the enemy approach and the razorbacks will survive and be able to retreat and to take the speed out of the enemy approach on a later turn again, while the speeders and bikes can still each kill a monstrous creature a turn. The godfexes would be much harder to kill, but I could ignore them until the dakka-MCs have fallen and then rapid-fire them with the bikes which would kill them too, and if I lose one bike squad to the second one I'm still good.
Annihilation would be easiest of all, I could just keep killing a gaunt squad with my speeders and run everything else away for the entire game. If the Nidzilla splits its force far enough to really form a dragnet I have enough plasma punch to burst through one flank.

 

[Lancealot]

Alot relies on the close range firefights going your way. Its a fine line between success and failure in a lot of these situations. Why not try a ranged sternguard squad to hold a objective if necessary??? Instead of;

• 210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 1 heavy flamer + 2 combi-plasma + razorback
• 210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 1 heavy flamer + 2 combi-plasma + razorback

Maybe a squad composition of...

• 210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 2 heavy flamer + 1 combi-flamer + rhino
• 210 - 6 Sternguard w/ 2 plasmacannon + razorback

...would add some more range and variation????

If you go for isolated units of troops maybe you'll even get a second shot with that many flamers?? Though only the heavy flamers the second time. Crispy genestealers....hhhmmm

The plasmacannons work well with the special ammunition's too, they wound well, have a similar range and ignore armour of 2+. Depending on the ammunition you use it matches well.

Good luck anyhow

 

[Red Archer]

Thanks for your reply, Lancealot.

I fear you underestimate bikes. I don't rely on "close-range firefights going my way". I have a lot of mobile heavy bolters with decent range, and even the plasma guns are an effective 36" on the bikes. Don't forget that bikes can shoot and assault if I am willing, so if there is need to deliver a rapid-fire punch I will go in with at least two squads at a time, rapid-firing and charging any remains. I have absolute shooting superiority, close-up and ranged.

I don't like the ranged sternguard because they are supposed to be my suicide units. They will deliver their alpha-strike (waiting for the enemy to close in, then charging up in their transports, disembarking and spraying death - on MCs with hellfire and plasma or on extended carapace genestealers with kraken and plasma) and then go down (getting assaulted, dealing a little hurt there with their veteran attacks but most importantly slowing down the enemy). I especially don't like the plasma cannons against Nids because the plasma is in the list to put wounds on monstrous creatures, what a single small blast marker shot can't reliably accomplish. Against the hordes it's a waste and against the MCs it doesn't work well.

Thanks for your advice!

 

[Lancealot]

You make a good point on the effective shooting range of bikes being extended due to them being relentless. I fully appreciate this, shooting heavy weapons and rapid firing on the move then charging is a good way to wipe out a unit. The point I make is that doing this will put your bikes out of position a fair percentage of the time.

A weakness is the lack of assault weapons in your bike squads if you commit to an assault. This combined with a bit of bad luck on some armour saves (especially in the early turns) could take a toll quickly. This plagues all elite single wound armies, those without invulnerable saves in particular.

As for the heavy bolters, 3 shots with a likely 2 hits can be very fickle especially with some lucky cover saves by your opponent.

Your force is also very elite so 420 points (of sternguard) in a 1500pt game is alot to loose, as is 12 of your 28 models. A cheaper suicide unit such as....

• 10 scouts- 140
• 2x landspeeder storm -100

...would be cheaper and add more scoring units. If you subtract the 420pts for the sternguard and 180 or 90 for 1 or 2 of the typhoons. 250+pts to instill some MC death???

I was aware of the weakness in the plasmacannon against nids, I personally like its compatibility with the sternguard special ammunition's. lol

I'd like to be a fly on the wall to watch your battle though because it sounds interesting...haha

 

[Red Archer]

Thanks for the inspiration, Lancealot!

Bike don't need assault weapons. Being relentless also means that they can charge regardless of what they did in the shooting phase. I assume you meant close combat weapons. But: bikes are not supposed to be in close combat. They are mobile and fast enough to avoid it.
If I am charged, then I will use combat tactics to retreat. Bikes fall back far enough (usually - it went badly once) that they can regroup next turn and act as if nothing had happened. And if I choose to assault myself, then it will be a situation like this: a group of twelve extended carapace genestealers is coming in on a flank, driving me towards the main Tyranid force. Two bike squads rush up to them, rapid-fire killing about ten, and then assault. I'll lose a biker, but I don't need any power weapons to win the combat against the remains, even if a lot of the vermin survived shooting.

Your suggestions for suicide units do not exactly fit my requirements. The scouts can't deliver a decisive alpha-strike, nor do they pose a threat thrown in the enemy's face that he can't just ignore. The scouts will go down very quickly in close combat and will even fall to Tyranid AP4 weaponry which is bad.
I don't need the sternguard. This point has been made several times throughout this thread, first to state that was myself. I would have a very competitive list fielding only bikes and landspeeders. But I want to give my opponent some satisfaction (fighting an opponent who keeps running away and evading your forces is probably not very fun, especially for a Tyranid player) and use the sternguard because I like them.
How do they fit in with the list? They can deliver a very decisive alpha-strike once they enemy is within 24". The razorbacks rush up ahead, unload the sternguard, and they either take down two MCs or a lot of genestealers (or anything else) - whatever the enemy force will look like. Then they are right up the enemy's face. He can go around them and their razorbacks, but it wouldn't be very wise to let them shoot another turn. So the opponent has to do something about them (probably just wiping them away with their entire army), but that buys time for the rest of my army.
Scouts and storms are just too fragile, being open-topped and having only carapace armor. They can't deliver a real punch either, because they suck both at shooting and close combat. They could win against some hormagaunts on the charge, but if they get assaulted themselves or if they try to assault something bigger they will get torn apart far too easily. I would only risk giving away vulnerable targets in kill points missions.

And I will never take (any of) the typhoons out of the list. They are just too freaking awesome. They can kill all Sv3+ MCs easily while they are better at killing hormagaunts than landspeeder tornados, they have very decent range, they can contest objectives at the end of the game (being hit only on 6s in close combat), etc...

As for the battle: I can't promise to write a full battle report and post it in the battle reports section, but I will certainly give a short report on the battle in my blog, as I always do with my campaign games.
Unfortunately there's no date for the game yet, but I hope to face those Tyranids soon. If I remember I will drop a note in this thread once the battle has been fought. In the meantime feel free to read the reports in my blogs if you are interested in bike army battles...

 

[Lancealot]

Haha yeah i meant cc weapons. The bike tactics are very effective against isolated units but what if the genestealers were in 2 squads (or had a broodlord) and were entrenched in some cover??? Do you often risk dangerous terrain tests???
If the bikes are forced to shoot at more than 12inches range they're almost literally half as effective, obviously this is why you reference using squads in tangent.

My scout idea was more for them to assault when cleaning up the shooting remnants and slowing the opponents in dire situations. I'd outflank or hide behind terrain with them as much as possible in Kill Point missions. haha. The 250+pts was to replace the alpha strike effect of the sternguard. Maybe with more speeders or vindicators or something. lol

I see you use no dreadnoughts??? Their mobile shooting seems to fit your force? Is their a reason or do they just not make the cut???

Would the army composition change much against a different opponent??? For example would you consider the typhoons to vulnerable against a more shooty opponent???

 

[Red Archer]

Haha yeah i meant cc weapons. The bike tactics are very effective against isolated units but what if the genestealers were in 2 squads (or had a broodlord) and were entrenched in some cover??? Do you often risk dangerous terrain tests???
If the bikes are forced to shoot at more than 12inches range they're almost literally half as effective, obviously this is why you reference using squads in tangent.

The key to win with a mobile but vulnerable army is to realize that the game is about movement of models on the tabletop, and not about blasting the enemy apart. The mean thing about a bikes and speeder army is that, if you don't decimate it really badly before the end of the game, it is bound to win with objectives. In kill points missions I just snipe one easy target (inflict heavy bolter krak missile death on an MC with the typhoons, for example) and then use that headstart as an excuse to pull back and see what happens.
The point here being that I need not engage the enemy. The enemy needs to engage me if it wants to have any chance of success. Therefore genestealers lurking in some cover are no danger to me. They need to come right at me to pose any threat, and I'll make them come out into the open. Otherwise I can just snipe some of them from afar and giggle while the enemy can hide all it wants but won't do any harm that way.
Look at it this way: the Nids either stay within range of one another to support themselves. The typhoons can wreck havoc while three bike squads combined can still kill an MC or a squad of genestealers or gaunts or something like that. It's a free bonus, I hardly take a risk, so why not shoot a little from afar. I don't need to be very effective - every shot I take is a gift I don't have to pay for. If they want to claim objectives and/or engage me from different directions in an attempt to surround my guys, I can engage an isolated part of the enemy force with my entire army.

About terrain: I have come to regard it as my worst enemy. I appear to be very unlucky with dangerous terrain tests as at least two of my opponents can testify (often losing two out of five models or losing exactly the powerfisted sergeant when assaulting, etc). Nonetheless I take the risk, though not light-heartedly, often enough.

My scout idea was more for them to assault when cleaning up the shooting remnants and slowing the opponents in dire situations. I'd outflank or hide behind terrain with them as much as possible in Kill Point missions. haha. The 250+pts was to replace the alpha strike effect of the sternguard. Maybe with more speeders or vindicators or something. lol

This is what I started out with in my all-comers army: three bike squads as troops, one mechanized tactical squad for support (so I can reach the upper levels of ruins or sit on a home objective, etc), some speeders and three vindicators. Very effective, and it would probably do very well against Nids. Maybe I will just go back to it again...

I see you use no dreadnoughts??? Their mobile shooting seems to fit your force? Is their a reason or do they just not make the cut???

Dreadnoughts actually don't suit mobile armies very well. Sure, it can move 6" and still fire its guns, and if it has to get away it can even run and get as far as a vehicle if its lucky, though its movement is slowed by terrain. But that is not even the point.
The dreadnought just has nothing to offer. If mobile armies need support, then it is heavy ordnance. I could have multi-meltas, assault cannons, and missile launchers on bikes and speeders if I wanted, I don't need the expensive dreadnought that can't reposition swiftly and runs the danger of being tied up in close combat from whence it can not escape.
It just doesn't put out enough firepower for me to consider it. I would always rather choose the vindicator for support, as that one actually does something the rest of my army can't do: hit many, many models in one turn, mass instant-kill (especially versus Ork nobs with feel no pain), destroy a monolith, etc...
I feel sorry for my three dreadnoughts not seeing any action, but in non-bike lists they go drop pod assaulting a lot, so I guess that's fine.

Would the army composition change much against a different opponent??? For example would you consider the typhoons to vulnerable against a more shooty opponent???

The list would definitely change. It needs much more melta against other opponents, for instance.
I outlined my all-comers list above, but since it is boring to play the entire campaign with one list (my whole chapter is there, for the Emperor's sake, I can't just let poor captain Seregon do everything) I have put it down again after a few games. It is common to list against specific opponents in my gaming group anyhow, so I've been experimenting again ever since.
In the meantime I have replaced all the vindicators with speeders, and often enough the tactical squad in my list got kicked out in favor of either a fourth bike squad or a scout sniper squad with Boromar (my Telion). Against Eldar I use a whirlwind which has proven very effective against them so far. Etc...
If you're interested in what list I use against which opponent I will again point you to my blog. Almost every one of my recent entries reports either one or two battles.