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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
1000-

HQ-
Farseer w/Doom

Elites-
9 Banshees w/ Exarch and mirror swords

Wave Serpeant w/ TL EML and Spirit Stones

Troops-
10 DA w/ Exarch, 2 SC, and Blade Storm

Wave Serpeant w/ TL BL and Spirit Stones

5 Rangers

Heavy Support-
Fire Prism

Fire Prism





1500

HQ:

Farseer w/ Doom

Farseer w/Guide

Elites:

10 Howling Banshees w/ Exarch and Mirror Swords
Wave Serpeant w/ Spirit Stones and TL EML

6 Striking Scoprions w/ Exarch, Claw, and Shadow Strike

Troops:

10 DA w/ Exarch, 2 SC, Blade Storm
Wave Serpeant w/ Spirit Stones and TL BL

5 Rangers

5 Dire Avengers

Heavy Support:
Fire Prism

Fire Prism

Faclon w/ Holofields, Spirit Stones, and BL

I am 18 points under. I have been debating adding Acrobatic, War Shout and Stalker to my Elites, or Adding a DA Exarch w/ 2 SC to the 5 DA.

The 5DA +GuideSeer are going in the falcon. Seer guides falcon. Goes to unclaimed or least guarded objectives towards end of game. Prisms do what you would think theyd do.

Doomseer goes with banshees in a serpeant. Both serpeants travel as a team to the weakest flank to crush it.

Scorpions outflank and hopefully dont die.




The reason I am not taking a 3rd prism is because I do not own one. I am not going to proxy because this is a list that i am trying out for a tournament. I am not going topurchase any more models but I am willing to take suggestions for swapping and editing of my list. Here are models I own that I am not using already:

Autarch
8 Harlequins (leader, jester and shadowseer)
3 warlocks
6 Fire dragons (exarch)
20 Guardian defenders (2 platforms)
3 Vypers
Wrathlord
War Walker

Let the bashing begin!
 

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I would maybe play the Wraithlord over the Falcon myself. He's a tough target, and can help you against specially tough units like Termies, Carnifexes, and heavy vehicles. That, and I just like wraithlords. But it looks good to me, even if maybe a bit weak in troops. Hopefully the Avengers in the WSerpent will cancel that out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I would maybe play the Wraithlord over the Falcon myself. He's a tough target, and can help you against specially tough units like Termies, Carnifexes, and heavy vehicles. That, and I just like wraithlords. But it looks good to me, even if maybe a bit weak in troops. Hopefully the Avengers in the WSerpent will cancel that out.

I agree the troops are little on the weak side. I dont prefer to take my wrathlord because he doesnt fit into my list very well. Also he cannot claim an objective.
 

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Simple Green.
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Drop the Faclon for a Falcon, they're much better ;)

But yea do you have much success with rangers? Personally I like them for a solid holding unit in 1000pt games but I feel more dynamics are needed at 1250 and up.

I really dont believe 5 blank DA's are much of a help in any circumstance, since you have 18 points free, I would drop them for 5 Fire Dragons (keeping the rangers to meet the req. of 2 troops) and put the Dragons and seer in the Falcon this way, since you dont have much in the way of shooting to take down say a TMC and Carnifexes or a Daemon Prince and tanks, it's a bit more flexible in that you can keep your anti-tank shooting at tanks and be able to drop a MC in a turn with the 5 melta shots from the Dragons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
No I really do not much success with my rangers. I am lucky to have 1 surviving by the end of the game. They are almost always annihalated. Specially since they are the only things outta transport. But as you see my options are guardians or rangers. Either way they both get turned into swiss cheese.

I know 5 DA are garbage but the point is they can claim objectives. I have been debating between the dragons and DA, and i just cant decide, cause the DA like I said can claim an objective and dragons only contest. and as it is, i usually only haev the 10 DA left to claim objectives at the end of the game.

I just cant decide !
 

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Simple Green.
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yes, yes, I know what you mean. It differs from my 1500 in that no matter what I always include a core of 2 full sized squads to make sure I always have enough for objectives. If your Rangers rarely last anyways why not consider dropping the Falcon in favor of a Wave Serpeant for the DA's, then boosting them to a 10man squad with an Exarch including Bladestorm and duel shurican cats? It would pack more of a punch overall I believe, especially if you go up against horde armies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
yes, yes, I know what you mean. It differs from my 1500 in that no matter what I always include a core of 2 full sized squads to make sure I always have enough for objectives. If your Rangers rarely last anyways why not consider dropping the Falcon in favor of a Wave Serpeant for the DA's, then boosting them to a 10man squad with an Exarch including Bladestorm and duel shurican cats? It would pack more of a punch overall I believe, especially if you go up against horde armies.

The reason I do no do this is because I do not own 5 more DA or another wave serpeant. If i had 5 more and a serpeant, i def would like to field that over the falcon.

I dont think this is a bad list, I agree that its probably better to do 10DA+serpeant+guideseer, but I juts dont have the models. And i would like to think that a falcon with a guideseer and either 5DA or 5 dragons isnt a bad choice, just probably not as good as a 10DA+serpeant+guideseer.

So the real dilema here is, take 5 DA+Guide seer, and then do what with the 18pts, or take 5 dragons+guideseer.
 

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hmm.. feels to me like there's a fair few 'wasted' points in the 1500 list.
a TL bright lance, a TL EML, another bright lance on the falcon and 2 prisms. seems pretty overkill on high strength weaponry. also the guide seer for the falcon seems like alot of points for not a huge amount of benefit, sure you're only hitting on a 4+, but consdiering all your other anti-tank is TL (inc prisms if you want a str10 shot) then i dont think you need to worry.

i'd drop the guide seer (-75 points), swap the falcons BL for a shuriken cannon (-25points) as you'll probably be moving with it a fair bit, meaning the 2nd gun wont really be firing a whole lot.

that's an extra 100 points freed up which means you could field 2 FA units, being two vipers with shuriken cannons. gives you opponent more things to keep track of, and gives you more guns on the field, as well as two more fast moving units which can move to contest in the late game.

i'd also probably swap the 3 lots of spirit stones on the tanks for 2 sets of star engines on the fire prisms, but that's just a personal preference. ;)

the only concern i'd have is that you've got alot of kill points available in an annihilation game. that said, most of the army is pretty mobile, so you should be able to pick your fights fairly well.

you could take 9 DAs in the WS, push your rangers up to pathfinders giving them a 2+ save in cover (should keep them alive) and throw spirit stones back on your banshee falcon, using up the last few points you had spare.
 

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Simple Green.
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i'd also probably swap the 3 lots of spirit stones on the tanks for 2 sets of star engines on the fire prisms, but that's just a personal preference. ;)
Spirit Stones are too valuable *especially* on a transport because it ignores the effects of having the ship not move for a turn unless immobilised of course. Preventing it from shooting isn't too bad, but considering the importance of what's inside, you can't let it stop moving. Why would you put star engines on a prism anyways? That's a waste.




you could take 9 DAs in the WS, push your rangers up to pathfinders giving them a 2+ save in cover (should keep them alive) and throw spirit stones back on your banshee falcon, using up the last few points you had spare.
Which list are you referring to? He only has 15 DA's at the moment. There is no Banshee Falcon, they have a dedicated Wave Serpeant.


So the real dilema here is, take 5 DA+Guide seer, and then do what with the 18pts, or take 5 dragons+guideseer.
Let's look at the pros and cons, ill be honest it's a fairly tough call, one is obviously more physically powerful than the other, but one is more tactically beneficial.

DA's ___________________________FD's
Anti-tank ability
Can hold objectives
Able to take down MC's
Better against horde mobs

If you think about the situations for both; if the opponent is already holding an objective and you're having trouble taking it down so that your full squad DA's could capture it, Fire Dragons would help more for the punch. But at the same time if you don't have something that can cap, you'll only take the point away from him to contest (which is still better than him getting it though). Now if it's a last turn scramble for objectives though and you still have the 5x DA's and Falcon alive you can always boost over to an open obj. for the point. In a 1500pt. game though, from my experience, I can strongly say that the Falcon will be targeted, it won't be ignored. If that's the case and it happens to get destroyed around turn three your DA's are left to foot-slog and than they truly are dead points because they dont have enough power to really do much. Now in turn, even if the Fire Dragon Falcon gets destroyed by say turn 3, at least they'd have turn 2 to be able to pop out and inflict damage on something in your opponents army that could prevent you from claiming an objective. If you aim to play for a 2-1 win, you can always have the rangers camp your back objective (which I know you plan to do anyways), and use the Fire Dragons to pop a hard target. All in all, even though that ramble may have seemed to favor one...

Take the 5 Dire Avengers

You have enough things that be able to hold your opponent to contests on the objectives that you want to contest and the ability to just boost over and gain a point on an empty claim is just too valuable for tournaments. Plus in a majority of tournaments it's allowed that troops inside a tank such as a Falcon can remain in the tank while still be considering holding the objective, so basically the Falcon itself can cap alone (effectively) as long as the troops are inside.

With the extra points take Runes of warding incase you fight psycher heavy armies/abilities (such as the all popular Lash in CSM nowadays)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
hmm.. feels to me like there's a fair few 'wasted' points in the 1500 list.
a TL bright lance, a TL EML, another bright lance on the falcon and 2 prisms. seems pretty overkill on high strength weaponry. also the guide seer for the falcon seems like alot of points for not a huge amount of benefit, sure you're only hitting on a 4+, but consdiering all your other anti-tank is TL (inc prisms if you want a str10 shot) then i dont think you need to worry.

i'd drop the guide seer (-75 points), swap the falcons BL for a shuriken cannon (-25points) as you'll probably be moving with it a fair bit, meaning the 2nd gun wont really be firing a whole lot.

that's an extra 100 points freed up which means you could field 2 FA units, being two vipers with shuriken cannons. gives you opponent more things to keep track of, and gives you more guns on the field, as well as two more fast moving units which can move to contest in the late game.

i'd also probably swap the 3 lots of spirit stones on the tanks for 2 sets of star engines on the fire prisms, but that's just a personal preference. ;)

the only concern i'd have is that you've got alot of kill points available in an annihilation game. that said, most of the army is pretty mobile, so you should be able to pick your fights fairly well.

you could take 9 DAs in the WS, push your rangers up to pathfinders giving them a 2+ save in cover (should keep them alive) and throw spirit stones back on your banshee falcon, using up the last few points you had spare.

I dont think any of the points are wasted. Do you have any idea how mechanized peoples armies are now a days? Fighting a min of 3 tanks in 1000 points is not uncommon anymore. For instance I fought against 3 tanks in a Tau 1000 pt army and 4 tanks against a 1000pt CSM army. Since the BL on the faclon is techniquelly a twin linked, it makes the lance too good to pass up, the only thing id consider dropping it for is a missle launcher.

and in reality why would my falcon be moving alot? he is only gonna move alot at turn 5. The rest of the game he going to slowly take position and sit behind cover, unleashing waves of heavy weapon fire. Then when the game comes to an end he will scramble for an objective.

All my spirit stones for star engines on my prisms? are you crazy?

What do you mean kill points in annihalation? I have 1500 points and so does my opponenet...... do you mean that my units cost alot and he will benefit greatly from killing them?


Let's look at the pros and cons, ill be honest it's a fairly tough call, one is obviously more physically powerful than the other, but one is more tactically beneficial.

DA's ___________________________FD's
Anti-tank ability
Can hold objectives
Able to take down MC's
More durable (save)
Better against horde mobs

If you think about the situations for both; if the opponent is already holding an objective and you're having trouble taking it down so that your full squad DA's could capture it, Fire Dragons would help more for the punch. But at the same time if you don't have something that can cap, you'll only take the point away from him to contest (which is still better than him getting it though). Now if it's a last turn scramble for objectives though and you still have the 5x DA's and Falcon alive you can always boost over to an open obj. for the point. In a 1500pt. game though, from my experience, I can strongly say that the Falcon will be targeted, it won't be ignored. If that's the case and it happens to get destroyed around turn three your DA's are left to foot-slog and than they truly are dead points because they dont have enough power to really do much. Now in turn, even if the Fire Dragon Falcon gets destroyed by say turn 3, at least they'd have turn 2 to be able to pop out and inflict damage on something in your opponents army that could prevent you from claiming an objective. If you aim to play for a 2-1 win, you can always have the rangers camp your back objective (which I know you plan to do anyways), and use the Fire Dragons to pop a hard target. All in all, even though that ramble may have seemed to favor one...

Take the 5 Dire Avengers

You have enough things that be able to hold your opponent to contests on the objectives that you want to contest and the ability to just boost over and gain a point on an empty claim is just too valuable for tournaments. Plus in a majority of tournaments it's allowed that troops inside a tank such as a Falcon can remain in the tank while still be considering holding the objective, so basically the Falcon itself can cap alone (effectively) as long as the troops are inside.

With the extra points take Runes of warding incase you fight psycher heavy armies/abilities (such as the all popular Lash in CSM nowadays)

I havent used my dragons in awhile, but dont they have a 4+save?

The falcon will of course be targeted. But in turn 1-4, what is more important to die.....the linking fire prisms in the back, or th e dual wave serpeants attacking your flank? or that falcon with a weak cargo squad, with 2 heavy weapons. Itll be a toss up, and from my experience, prisms take most of the heat.

And youre right, if the falcon dies they are in big trouble.

I am leaning heavily towards DAs, its too bad i cant make lists on mission dependent. On a capture and control mission or annihalation i might as well take the dragons, but in seize ground the DAs seem like a better choice.
 

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Simple Green.
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I havent used my dragons in awhile, but dont they have a 4+save?
~ I fixed that I had warp spiders on my mind :p


The falcon will of course be targeted. But in turn 1-4, what is more important to die.....the linking fire prisms in the back, or the dual wave serpeants attacking your flank? or that falcon with a weak cargo squad, with 2 heavy weapons. Itll be a toss up, and from my experience, prisms take most of the heat.
~ Depends, you know it's a weak squad inside, but the other person doesn't know that. We can always try to predict what the other person would shoot at based off what we know about our own army, but when you factor in LoS, while you can partially control what shots go where, at the same time the other person can dictate this as well. Also if their army has a balance of 48" 36" and 24" range anti-tank they could go for both in the same time and with the luck of the dice on their side, you never really know what will happen. People who don't know what prisms do may tend to ignore them for turn until until I shoot, at least that's what I've noticed, but those who know it's weapon and combi'd with the new rules where blasts auto hit those players know it's dangerous and will target it.


And youre right, if the falcon dies they are in big trouble.
~ Kinda goes along with nearly any squad though, but yea you know what i mean.

I am leaning heavily towards DAs, its too bad i cant make lists on mission dependent. On a capture and control mission or annihalation i might as well take the dragons, but in seize ground the DAs seem like a better choice.
I know :( . But if you could, than other players could so it's a double-sided coin. If you do get annihalation though and come up against nids or orks the DA's would be a nice mini-investment though :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
haha yeah. I will probably just go with the DA. If they dont work out, ill try something else involving the fire dragons. maybe place the guide seer elsewhere and what not, until i found a good list that I can play well in any mission that I do not have to alter.

I am still debating on not taking those 3 exarch powers, while they are minimal bonuses they ahve proved to be helpful in many different situations.

Also i am debating of dropping a couple of models here and there so i can make the rangers pathfinders I dont know yet. Ruins of warding are always good too. Ill just have to do some shuffling.
 

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Simple Green.
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haha yeah. I will probably just go with the DA. If they dont work out, ill try something else involving the fire dragons. maybe place the guide seer elsewhere and what not, until i found a good list that I can play well in any mission that I do not have to alter.
~ thus the trick to winning tournaments ;) The only thing holding you back is the purchasing of the models.


I am still debating on not taking those 3 exarch powers, while they are minimal bonuses they ahve proved to be helpful in many different situations.
Are we talking about the 2 bladestorms and the 1 shadowstrike? If so, keep them.


Also i am debating of dropping a couple of models here and there so i can make the rangers pathfinders I dont know yet. Ruins of warding are always good too. Ill just have to do some shuffling.
What's the point count upto? I don't have my codex with me I'm at work (hence why i stalk the forums there's nothing else to do in downtime ;))
 

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Spirit Stones are too valuable *especially* on a transport because it ignores the effects of having the ship not move for a turn unless immobilised of course. Preventing it from shooting isn't too bad, but considering the importance of what's inside, you can't let it stop moving. Why would you put star engines on a prism anyways? That's a waste.
indeed, which is why i put the stone back on the basnhee WS (falcon was a typo). thats the primary delivery, for me the DAs will have to do without for the benefit of the surprise package prisms, the same goes for the falcon which will only be pushing late game (along with other tanks, so shouldnt be recieving masses of fire. sure spirit stones are nice to take for the push, but the reason for putting star engines on a prism was demonstrated by you. you'r an eldar player and you're not expecting it. prisms that can contest from 36" on turn 5. with any remaining serpents, vipers and falcons moving on turn 4 to positions they can contest from, your opponent isnt likely to see or expect your prisms to make that distance. like i said personal preference.


http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/members/ericismyname.html
What do you mean kill points in annihalation? I have 1500 points and so does my opponenet...... do you mean that my units cost alot and he will benefit greatly from killing them?
kill points.. as in kill points.. the scoring method for annihilation matches. the current 1500 list has 12 kill points available, which feels pretty high, plus some of them being fairly easy to get. so it's something i'd be aware of. maybe look to invest more points in slightly stronger units with more survivability, e.g. pathfinders over rangers.
 

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Simple Green.
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like i said personal preference.
To each their own, to that I will not contest.


kill points.. as in kill points.. the scoring method for annihilation matches. the current 1500 list has 12 kill points available, which feels pretty high, plus some of them being fairly easy to get. so it's something i'd be aware of. maybe look to invest more points in slightly stronger units with more survivability, e.g. pathfinders over rangers.

Kill-point model values can vary from place to place or tournament to tournament it isn't always based on the wound count of certain models, that's why you two may not see exact eye to eye on what the other is talking about :)
 

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maybe 'wasted' sounded harsher than it was meant to :laugh:

at no point am i saying 'you should do this...', i'm just wanting to throw options or concerns in ther for you to consider. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I was talking about adding acrobatic,warshout or stalker, ive found my scorpions diving for cover many games, expecially in mech lists. Since there are not many targets for non heavy weapons. Also my scorpions have gotten assaulted from time to time. Warshout has worked for me against non MEQ units due to average to low ld values. but most of the time if they have low ld they have a ws 3 as well. and i have used acrobatic a couple times, like against genestealers. Also when you counter charge does the banshee mask take affect ? (I10)

And yes i was thinking 4th edition victory points, my bad. Yeah it does have alot of kill points, but wave serpeants w/energy fields, falcon with holofields arnt THAT easy to kill. There not hard, but certainly are resilent to heavy fire. ....now if only you could add holofields to serpeants..HMMM. I know they are not that good anymore, but they for sure have saved my hide several times. Someone rolls a 6 and 4, at least its still in the fight!

Yeah buying more models is holding me back, i do not want to put together anymore tanks!!! I have 2 serpeants 2 prisms ( which the turret isnt actually that easy...) and a falcon. Plus I have been painting them for awhile. I also have as you saw a large list of models. Ill get some spiders and jetbikes when they make new models, but until then, they are far to ugly compared to the new array of eldar models. With the first list i posted it was 18 points under. If i removed 1 banshee and 1 DA thatd be another 28 points, which would give me enough poiints to make them all pathfinders, then id still have the 18 points which i could add, those above 3 exarch powers, or add ruins of warding. I may just have to do some playing to see what works. My biggest concern is if the 5 DA are going to be more useful than 5 dragons. Cause in capture and control there is only 2 objectives, so there are no spares. annihalation ....no objectives , so only in seize ground are they truly able to shine. But are there more missions in the bigger rule book?
 

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Kill-point model values can vary from place to place or tournament to tournament it isn't always based on the wound count of certain models, that's why you two may not see exact eye to eye on what the other is talking about :)
Nono. In 5th edition Anihilation games, each unit you field is worth 1 kill point. A Carnifex is 1 point. A Land Raider is 1 point. 20 Guardians are 1 point. 10 Guardians on a Wave Serpent are 1 point each. The actual points cost is only used as a tie-breaker. A least, that's how it officially is. Some places still use old scoring rules, or make their own up. However, and remember I mean just going by the book, only 1 out of every 3 games is anhihilation.

Therefore, it is better, in theory, to play less, tougher units.
 

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Nono. In 5th edition Anihilation games, each unit you field is worth 1 kill point. A Carnifex is 1 point. A Land Raider is 1 point. 20 Guardians are 1 point. 10 Guardians on a Wave Serpent are 1 point each. The actual points cost is only used as a tie-breaker. A least, that's how it officially is. Some places still use old scoring rules, or make their own up. However, and remember I mean just going by the book, only 1 out of every 3 games is anhihilation.

Therefore, it is better, in theory, to play less, tougher units.
Again, that's according to the book certain tournaments and places don't play by those rules and kill points vary. I'll give you an example of one I played at a few days ago, the only kill points that mattered were IC's, squad leaders, and tanks. IC's were 5 points per, tanks were 3, squad leaders were 2. You can't generalize points and think everywhere is the same.
 

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Again, that's according to the book certain tournaments and places don't play by those rules and kill points vary. I'll give you an example of one I played at a few days ago, the only kill points that mattered were IC's, squad leaders, and tanks. IC's were 5 points per, tanks were 3, squad leaders were 2. You can't generalize points and think everywhere is the same.
I said that, many tournaments use their own scoring methods.

Back on topic, I'd try to see if you can scrape some points for the upgrade to pathfinders. The extra bonuses may not seem like much, but trust me they are important. With good cover your pathfinders are basically Terminators. 2+ Cover, and a lowsy armor save if that is denied. They are also good at running deeper into cover to avoid being assaulted.
 
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