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The Orange Grey Knight
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3,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Doctrines:
-- Grenadiers
-- Cyber-Enhancement
-- Sharp Shooters

HQ (266)

- Command Squad
---Senior Officer
-----Power Weapon
-----Storm Bolter
-----Macharian Cross
-----Bionics
---3 Plasma Guns
---1 Veteran
-----Medic
---Chimera
-----Multilaser
-----Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
-----Extra Armor
-----Smoke Launchers
-----Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
---Cyber-Enhancements
---Sharp Shooters
Total:266

Troops (510)

- Storm Troopers
---9 Storm Troopers
-----2 Plasma guns
---Sergeant
---Chimera
-----Multilaser
-----Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
-----Extra Armor
-----Smoke Launchers
-----Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
---Cyber-Enhancements
---Sharp Shooters
Total:255

- Storm Troopers
---9 Storm Troopers
-----2 Meltaguns
---Sergeant
---Chimera
-----Multilaser
-----Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
-----Extra Armor
-----Smoke Launchers
-----Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
---Cyber-Enhancements
---Sharp Shooters
Total:255

Heavy Support (215)

- Leman Russ Battle Tank
---Battle Cannon
---Hull Mounted Lascannon
---Heavy Bolter Sponsons
---Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
---Extra Armor
---Smoke Launchers
---Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
---Improved Comms
---Hunter Killer Missile
Total:215

Army Total:991

Remember, being mean ain't nice.

Mike
 

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Senior Member
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646 Posts
It's looking good Mike, but there's a few points I'd bring up.

1. Only BS3 models can take sharpshooters.

2. I would drop cyber-enhancment. IMO, 20pts a squad is an insane price to pay for a 6+ invulnerable. If you drop this and loose the illegal sharpshooters, that's 30pts per squad you've knocked off.

3. I would drop some of these upgrades in the command squad. Particularly the Macharian Cross. For a start, you can't redeploy vehicles, so it will only pay off if your Storm Troopers are down as line infantry (which is silly as you don't really have a line to bolster), and redeploying 1 squad isn't really worth 20pts IMO.
Generaly I think you would be better off taking out the medic and the bionics as well. Again, 6+ saves aren't worth it.

4. I think your Russ is far too upgrade heavy. I don't put any upgrades on mine, and also - a single Russ will last you 5 mins. For me it's 2 or nothing. If you dropped some of the upgrades on your squads and particularly on your Russ you could fit a second one in there easily.
Extra armour can sometimes be useful, but very rarley, and I would advise you drop the Hull Lascannon in favour of 3 HB. Keep the weapons consistant. This will knock 60pts off your tank! If you take my advice on the other changes, you have easily enough to squeeze the other Russ in.

5. If you were to expand this to 1500 I would look at some support squads or Sentinels, as you have a bit of a Heavy Weapons gap at the moment. You might also consider deepstriking meltaguns, or giving MGs to some of your squads to handle big tanks.


Other than the 2nd Russ and the possible addition of heavy weapons - I wouldn't suggest any major changes. Just loose some of those upgrades and get a bit more bang for your buck. Keep us updated on battle reports.
 

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The Orange Grey Knight
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3,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, First IG list and all.....

I can't fix it now, but I will when I hit home.

I'm keeping the CE, I like it and keeps the list fun and different.

Plus, even a few 6+ saves are better than nothing.

If I have lots of extra points I'll throw in some Sentinals nad swap the Hull mountewd Lascannon for a Heavy Bolter.

Mike

Mike
 

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Senior Member
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646 Posts
That's fair enough Mike, but I would stress that 2pts per model is far too much to be paying for a 6+ save, invulnerable or otherwide. Don't forget, these guys already have 4+ armour - so your enemies will have to shoot special and heavy weapons at them to kill them. IMO, the 40pts could be much better spent elsewhere.

Obviously if you want the upgrade it's your list - but I'm just telling you from my experience as a long time guard player that the extra points you are shelling out for upgrades and special equipment are better spent on extra units.

Good luck with it.
 

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Senior Member
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646 Posts
MiketehFox said:
[1000]IG Mech (FUN)

I put that there for a reason.
You posted your list up here for people to make comments on it, tell you how they think it will perform and their opinions on how you could improve it. That is what this section of the forum is for. I put aside my time to tell you what I think of it based on my experiences with guard.

If you are building a fun army, and don't really want to refine it, I have no problem with that, but I simply don't understand why you posted it if you are going to address criticism by reiterating (quite aggressively) that it's only meant to be a FUN army.
 

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LO's Shadow Captain
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12,783 Posts
Xethemez said:
You posted your list up here for people to make comments on it, tell you how they think it will perform and their opinions on how you could improve it. That is what this section of the forum is for. I put aside my time to tell you what I think of it based on my experiences with guard.

If you are building a fun army, and don't really want to refine it, I have no problem with that, but I simply don't understand why you posted it if you are going to address criticism by reiterating (quite aggressively) that it's only meant to be a FUN army.
Or, he posted the army list here to share it with others, and maybe get their opinions on it, but not necessarily to tell him to take this out, put this in, etc.

Is it so impossible for people on these forums to accept a fun/fluffy army list without getting defensive about things when the creator points out that it is a .. well, fun/fluffy army list, and not bent on winning every game?

:sleep:

edit: And I fail to note any aggression in Mike's post..



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Senior Member
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646 Posts
Lost Nemesis said:
Or, he posted the army list here to share it with others, and maybe get their opinions on it, but not necessarily to tell him to take this out, put this in, etc.
Nemesis, please explain to me why you would post your army list in an open discussion if you didn't want it to be commented on? I certainly wouldn't.

It's not about creating the perfect army list, or a list built for winning every game, at the end of the day, it's Mike's choice to open up a thread about his army. I gave Mike my insights on a list he constructed. It's a list I liked, and I told him what elements of the army I thought would work well in the field, what elements wouldn't and perhaps some things I would change. If he dosen't agree with it that's his choice, I'm not trying to force him to change his list - I'm just giving advice I thought was welcome. What more do you want?

not necessarily to tell him to take this out, put this in, etc.
Would you rather I said "Wow, this list is perfect." Or is this too close to commentry?
Perhaps I should say nothing because the word fun is in the title?

MiketehFox said:
[1000]IG Mech (FUN)

I put that there for a reason.
This is the post I interpreted as being aggressive.

This is essentialy saying to me: "Don't comment on my list because it's only meant to be fun". Now if there is a non-aggressive way to interpret this particular statment, or I have missed the point of what he was trying to say then by all means correct me.



My point is: If you don't want criticism, don't post it in an open dicussion. It's as simple as that. If your army is only intended to be fun, and you don't want people to suggest changes then don't post it on here.
 

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LO's Shadow Captain
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12,783 Posts
As far as I'm concerned, Mike has responded reasonably well to the discussions about his army, and even talked about them, gave his reasons for them, etc.

I don't really see him neglecting to take any criticism, and he was active in discussing the reasons he put certains things in his army/why he put them in his army.

And if you take that comment as being aggressive (as opposed to merely stated.. well, simply? effectively?) then I fear you may be offended by the "aggression" of many people on this forum.

Instead of looking at the list purely in a "hey, look, an army list, naturally he wants to know everything on how to make it better" way... look at it in a "hmm, would he really have fun with this list? what could help him have fun with it?"

Just because it was posted in the Army List forum, doesn't necessarily mean he wants comments about the list on what is effective. If that's all you think, well, I suppose it works for most of the lists on here, but as you can see, it doesn't always work for all of the lists. Instead, assume that the word "FUN" means he.. wants to have fun with the list? And instead of getting defensive when he points that out, try to help him accomplish it?

For example - I'm not sure if he'll have all that much fun at using this list. Why? It's very symmetrical. This army list doesn't have a whole lot of variation, and is quite easily countered by other army lists, especially once those squads get out of their transports.

@Mike - Don't always assume that everyone's just trying to tell you what to do. Believe me, it sprouts way too many arguments. ;) And, I'm not positive on this, but, is it legal to give Grenadiers the Cyber Enhancements doctrine? Might want to doublecheck that. If it references the upgrade to "Guard Infantry units" then it isn't legal to give it to them. Guard Infantry units are described on page 55 of the 'dex.



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Senior Member
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As far as I'm concerned, Mike has responded reasonably well to the discussions about his army, and even talked about them, gave his reasons for them, etc.

I don't really see him neglecting to take any criticism, and he was active in discussing the reasons he put certains things in his army/why he put them in his army.
I agree Nemesis. I thought we were having a healthy debate about the effectivness of some of the doctrines Mike had chosen, which is why I was quite taken aback by post #5 and responded in the way I did. However, I accept that I probibly read this post as being more aggressive than it was intended.

You are also right about Grenadiers not being able to take it. I let that one slip!

Instead of looking at the list purely in a "hey, look, an army list, naturally he wants to know everything on how to make it better" way... look at it in a "hmm, would he really have fun with this list? what could help him have fun with it?"
I still stand by my point that if you post your army list on here you can't really complain about people who take their time to anylise it, even if you don't agree with them or don't like the nature of the comments that are being made.

Just because you posted a fun list, it dosen't mean that people should immediatley assume that it's composition isn't an issue. If you want more of a discussion on how it will play then really that needs to be made clear in the initial post.

If I post an army list, I tend to give people a general idea of what I would like to discuss about it, especialy if I don't want a discussion on it's construction.
 

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The Orange Grey Knight
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3,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Alright, so a few things first...

Thanks Lost Nemesis for standing up for me in my abcense, it's good to know that theres at least one person who can at least slightly underdstand the workings of my mind. (My mind is CRAZY between the times of slight happiness and depression)

I would like to thank Xethemez for being as reasonable as hes able to be. (Sorry if this sounds wrong, but I can't think up any other way to put it)

I'll clear a few things up.

A] Normally I try to include a few notes in the list about why I use things and such, but I only fifnshed the list just before I left for school, I actually posted it at school but didn't have time to finish it off, I'll be revising the list and starting a new thread for Version 1.2 later, hopefully tonight. I had been counting on my reputation and my sig to show that I'm not all about winning (not that I try and lose either) but I expected too much, especially seeing as I've bearly posted in the IG Forum, My Mistake.

B] I took CE because of the same reason I gave my kroot a 6+ Armor save, because it helps them stay alive (in CC for the kroot, as not everyone carries PWs) and even if it only works twice for a squad every game, it'll have been worth it as other wise they would have died. Also, because of the low model count, I expect to be targeted with a fair amount of
Heavy Weapons, and I do worry about weapons like Autocannons with good stats and high shot rates. and evey a 6+ save is better than nothing.

C] I'm sorry if I offended you Xethemez, oit was definetly not intentional, but I find that sometinmes I have to say things several times before people realise or even notice what I'm saying, plus I find I'm pretty frank, I tell it liuke it is and move on. This is also due to the critisisme I've faced in the past with some of my lists so I can be cold to certain people. but that post was just what it looks like, a point made very easily, I could have posted a paragraph or 2 about why I posted that quote but I didn't think it'd be nessary, hoping the again that my reputation would precede me (this time about being calm and clear to the point) but again I was wrong, I'm sorry.

So I'll bewroking on the list and I'll also be on the Flash Chat if ya wanna, well chat.

New version HERE: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56788

Mike
 
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