[Yourand]

Hey all!
I'm playing a friendly game this Friday, i.e. I'll be facing the most tooled-up, minmax'd, cheesed out IG army EVAR. I've read somewhere that a nid army at 1000 pts is at an disadvantage against the guard, which got me kind of worried. I think my opponent will go for a fairly equal numer of tanks and special-weapons packed squads of infantry.
Here's what I'm thinking so far:

Hive Tyrant,
Winged, ST, BStrangler, +1s, warp field.

2 x Sniper Fexes, kept as cheap as possible.

2 x 3 flying ripper swarms

1 lictor

1 Zoanthrope, blast

as many hormagaunts as I can get (about 12).

I'm not putting in point values as this is just an early draft, but it sums up to about a thousand.
The idea would be to shoot the hell out of him with the fexes whily flying around the flank with the Tyrant, followed by the little guys. I'm also thinking gargoyles instead of the hormies.
Please tell me if I'm going in the right direction with this. Any comments will be very appreciated, as I'm sure there are some nasty anti-IG tricks in our arsenal that I'm simply not familiar with.

Also, with 4 s10, bs3 VC shots per turn, I'll be getting 6 glances a game against his vehicles. Are sniperfexes really worth it..?

Cheers!

 

[Overread]

Tyrant - I don;t like the stangler on him = its a long ranged weapon, but wings are really for closing distance to the enemy = drop the stangler if you can for another set of talons - or better for ani guard, take 2 sets of twinlinked devourers -- he should also have enhanced senses if he is shooting.

Sniperfexes - take them - they are well worth their points, the vennom cannons might not penetrat, but you only have to shake the crew to render the tank useless for a turn. The strangler will also come in handy against the masses of troops - and the chance of a penetrating hit on a tank. Consider taking reinforced chitchin if you can - the extra wound is always a good choice and really annoys opponents when a whole turn of concentrated fire still does not down the fex

lictor - one lictor - not sure about him in this list - good if your opponent is taking morters or a basalisk - but remember the lictor appears and dies fast

zoanthrope - you want more of these - get at least 2 into this force, 3 if you can, they have the best save in the tyranid army (without upgrades) and have our best "gun" - synapse would also support your army more - or you could take 3 with scream to set up a choir effect if you wish -- if you do this though you will need more troops for hitting the enemy.

dakkafexes (enhanced senses, 2 sets of twinlinked devourers - in the elite slot of the FOC) - none in your list, but there is points space for 2 of these, take them, the shots they can put out combined with their armour and toughness will make them good at surviving turns and also at taking out your opponents troops and light tanks. Also, 5 monstrus creaturs is not a thing to be faced lightly

Gargoyles are a very good choice to take - the reason most people don't take them though is because they cost way too much in money to get enough numbers together. If you have numbers take them

 

[MVBrandt]

He cannot take elite fexes in a 1,000 point game. 1,500+ only.

Hormagaunts and gargoyles, and the lictor too IMO, are all too expensive for a 1,000 point battle. Mass the spinegaunts - they'll handle guard pretty well in melee point for point.

 

[Yourand]

THanks for the responce, guys. I can't see takinh more than one 'thrope. At 1k they're a bit too expensive for what they can do... As for spinegaunts instead of hormies - I understand that numbers matter, but I can't get the image of being those few inches short of a succesful charge, and getting shot to pieces by the heavy bolters and other nasty stuff out of my head...

 

[MVBrandt]

What I am trying to get across to you, is that the # of regular guardsmen likely to be fielded in a "cheesed" 1k point Guard list, will be plenty enough to own your hormagaunts, ripper swarms and lictor in close combat. If I were your opponent, I'd just put all my fire into the Tyrant on turn 1, and now you have no synapse whatsoever. If he's a "cheese" guard he'll have enough lascannons/etc. to do it.

So, you lose on turn 1.

You need more synapse, and more models. Guardsmen can kill hormagaunts quickly in close combat, and lictors, if they outnumber them, and you will be massively outnumbered once your tiny cc force gets there.

12 hormagaunts and 1 lictor equate to 200 points with no upgrades on the hormies, which can be redeployed as 40 spinegaunts. That's 40 wounds vs. 14.


PS - you're forgetting the barbed strangler shots from the Sniperfexes (proper sniperfex build is enhanced senses, barbed strangler, venom cannon, flesh hooks and that's it for 149 points)

They are worth it, and I've found that I get more glances than just 6 over the course of a game anyway with them. Keep moving, since you can move and shoot all weapons, and get side armor shots on the russes ... really not that difficult to do IMO, and you'll own chimeras and lighter vehicles in the face.


My long and short opinion is you don't have enough synapse, and you don't have enough models. Lictors are TERRIBLE at earning their points back. You complain about what a 2+ / 6+ invul saving S10 shooting zoanthrope can do in a 1k list, then take a T4W2 5+ save (albeit better in cover) 80 point model that only has close combat abilities and is so armor-fragile that regular guardsmen will put enough return wounds on it to kill it. The rippers are also very pricey for this sized game and the ability of any S6 shot to pop them.

My opinion? Drop the rippers, the hormies, the lictor; buy another zoanthrope and put synapse on both of them, and buy a bunch of spinegaunts. Keep the zoanthropes moving up behind the main wave so that if and really when your tyrant gets ganked, your entire army doesn't fall apart. Alternately, fix up the tyrant so he isn't a mixed bag odd-ball weapon tyrant, and buy a 2nd tyrant and ditch the zoanthropes, and give the 2nd tyrant nothing but enhanced senses, toxin sacs, and two twin-linked devourers.

 

[Zakrael]

Spinegaunts are a much better choice. At 1000 you want as many meat shields as you can get.

Definitely lose the BS on the Tyrant, as well. Go for more talons (for anti-tank) or 2x twin-linked Devourers (for anti-infantry).

I'm just concerned with the lack of synapse. You've got anti-tank, so that should be fine. With the 2 Sniperfexes you should be at least mildly inconveniencing 2 tanks a turn. It's just that Tyrant will be leaving the gaunts behind pretty quickly (If you go Talons, he should be in combat by turn 2. ), meaning they'll do pretty much nothing.

I don't see Warp Blast being much use either - the max strength bolt has a pretty poor range, as far as anti-tank weapons go, and you'll only be hitting 50% of the time.

Solution to both problems:

If you get rid of the flying rippers, you can get another Zoanthrope. Maybe sacrifice a few guants as well. Give this 'thrope Synapse and Psychic Scream. Do the same to the other one. You then have two synapse creatures who are both pretty tough to kill. Even better, if you stick them behind your gaunts, the IG will have to take priority tests at -2 LD to hit them. This solves Synapse problem pretty well, and that LD drain will really irritate the guardsman.

And if your spinegaunts are getting hit by the heavy bolters, then they're doing their job. That's heavy bolters that're not shooting at the 'thropes, Tyrant, or 'fexes. The whole point of spinegaunts is to sacrifice themselves in amusing ways. They're the games best distraction.

Basically, even min/maxing on tanks, he'll only have three in the army. Force Organisation chart and all that. Well, unless he goes for Hellhounds. If you set your Carnifexes one each (probably the two most dangerous ones. I'm thinking the Leman Russ') they'll effectively keep those two tanks out of the game. The Hive Tyrant can hit him in the side on turn two, not having to worry about Synapse any more, and start eating tanks (if he's got Talons; average armour roll of 12/13, more than enough to breach side armour). If he does go for hellhounds as well, you're laughing. They go boom very quickly. Target them first though, as they can really mess up gaunts. If he goes more for infantry, then that's even better. Just tear apart unit after unit with the Barbed Stranglers. Once you get within Scream range, he'll fail all the pinning tests as well. Or at least most of them.

All the gaunts are ever going to do is psychological damage. But don't tell your opponent this. Let him think they're dangerous.

 

[Karmoon]

point of interest.. but againt IG.. isn't the barbed strangler a better anti infantry weapon?

Just wondering. Even with a Hive Tyrant's pathetic natural strength, sure a pie plate will generally hit/kill more than a TL Devourer.

*considers point level, and biomorophs needed to make Barbie strangler functional on HT*

Yeah.. actually, TL Devourer is a lot better at this level. heh heh.

 

[MVBrandt]

The only problem is that as squad sizes diminish, and the opponent spreads out, the barbed strangler weakens. The devourer does its statistical wounds just as well to one guy as 10, whereas the strangler only wounds 1 guy at *most* if there's one guy, and more like 5 or 6 at most (typically) if there's 10. If they're in the open, they won't get a save (unless they're carapace guard), so it's 5 or 6 killed.

If you think about the devourer, against guard, 9 hits are going to wound more or less 9 times (slightly less perhaps), killing 6 guardsmen or so.

When squads get smaller, the strangler's impact reduces by squad size, and the devourer continues to kill 6 (or all if less than 6 remain) or more guardsmen per turn.

That's the other thing. If the strangler hits 5 guardsmen, it CANNOT kill more than 5, and probably will kill less. The devourer is going to put more than 6 wounds on a guard squad per turn, so if the dice go your way you actually can kill more than just what's hit by a template.

You could consider that there is a demoralizing effect to having to place big blasts on one's units, but there's also a demoralizing effect when your opponent rolls 12 dice, then picks up and re-rolls all the misses, then rolls a ton of wounds and yet again picks up and re-rolls any of those misses. Watching one model drop a big pie plate on you sucks. So does watching one model occasionally make you roll 12 saves.

 

[Zakrael]

Even with a Hive Tyrant's pathetic natural strength...

I've never heard it called that before.

 

[MVBrandt]

It is S5 on a creature the size of a Carnifex, you know. It's one of the lowest Monstrous Creature base strengths in the game, I think.

 

[Karmoon]

It is S5 on a creature the size of a Carnifex, you know. It's one of the lowest Monstrous Creature base strengths in the game, I think.

Now that daemon princes have their gym membership and have been working out, it is officially the lowest strength monster in the game.

I mean seriously.. the Fairy King is stronger than a hive tyrant >_<

 

[NiteRabbit]

Granted, but you have to take into account the fact that the Hive Tyrant is one of the most common Monstrous Creatures in the 40k universe. Alongside the fact that they are mainly commanders and not siege platforms. So yeah, they're a dime a dozen...

 

[Yourand]

Guys, you're all golden. Thanks a LOT! I see I've been wondering in the dark with my ideas
Now I'm just internally debating:
a) 2x talons vs 2x devs on the flyrant (the devs would be awesome to use, but I think I really need to be certain that I can take out a tank a turn, otherwise it may end badly...).
b) why no 2+ save on the fex? Seems like a logical thing to do, but probably isn't. But why?
c) I know the lictor is a glass hammer, but it's just so tempting to have a model that can assault as it arrives, thus blocking the LOS of (potentially) his whole army... It has saved my ass against guard in the past. But your point-to-wound ratio is bullet-proof. Ah, damn. This is hard!

 

[Karmoon]

Guys, you're all golden.

*contemplates a golden cactus*

I may just be able to become even more annoying y'know

a) 2x talons vs 2x devs on the flyrant (the devs would be awesome to use, but I think I really need to be certain that I can take out a tank a turn, otherwise it may end badly...).

I strongly advise you to magnetise you Tyrant so you can try both out and you don't have to choose. They're both solid builds, and I vary between them depending on the rest of my army.

b) why no 2+ save on the fex? Seems like a logical thing to do, but probably isn't. But why?

2+ saves on fexes are great when you have lots of them. But, whether he has the extended carapace or not, he's still gonna get lascannoned in his fat little face. And lascannons don't care if your carapace is extended or not.

Extended carapace also holds much more merit against Marines and Necrons. Poor necrons.

c) I know the lictor is a glass hammer, but it's just so tempting to have a model that can assault as it arrives, thus blocking the LOS of (potentially) his whole army... It has saved my ass against guard in the past. But your point-to-wound ratio is bullet-proof. Ah, damn. This is hard!

Lictors are amazing units, so my respects for using them. And they can play havoc with guard be able to instant kill them naturally, and also hurt the back of tanks.

That said, they're just too expensive at this point level. BEcause even against a squad of 10 guardsmen with the charge for the lictor.. the guardsmen will still probably be able to stab their way through the lictor. They're fragile.. and as pointed out earlier - you need your wounds.

You'll get more and more powerful the bigger the match gets - rest assured.

 

[MVBrandt]

My only concern for 2 x talons, is that if he moves his tanks 1" per turn, you only hit them on a 4+ (if you get into combat w/ them at all). Granted you could in theory immobilize them w/ the fexes first, but now you're dedicating two monstrous creatures to a tank. Let the tanks be won or lost by the fexes. The Tyrant can smash apart guard in close combat w/out the scything talons, by virtue of the shots pre charge and only 2 less big heavy insta-ganking attacks, but he'll also be far more effective on the way in. Plus, he can still pop vehicle side armor on many guard vehicles, and on Russ rears, and with wings you'll be able to pull that off probably anyway. Against a chimera, for instance, if you get a side armor shot, you'll do 9 hits and at least 3 glances, which gives you a 50% chance from one round of fire to kill it, and a theoretical 100% chance to kill or immobilize it (which means when you thereafter charge if you can, you'll kill it with just the 4 attacks on charge, b/c they'll all hit automatically, giving you an average of 13 on the pen roll, for 4 penetrations, half of which result in a kill). Without said shots ahead of the charge, your scything talon tyrant hits only 3 times (4+ to hit, again assuming he moves it 1").


Karmoon answered the other 2 questions marvelously ... the only thing I'll add is with the fexes, what he said + STAY IN COVER. Give them flesh hooks, deploy BEHIND a building or trees, so he can't shoot at them on turn 1 if he goes first, then use the flesh hooks to move up ON the building, and start shooting (or into the trees).

 

[Yourand]

Gotcha. (However, I can't stop thinking that shooting my target with the tyrant will have the unfortunate effect of anihilating the given squad, thus making it possible for him to shoot the tyrant out of the sky next turn. Or cripple the squad so that it dies in the same combat phase I charge, again leaving the Tyrant in the clear...)
Taking into acount what you said, here's what I cooked up:

Hive Tyrand
Winged, S6, BS4, 2x tl Devs, warpfield.
186 pts

11 spinegaunts
11 spinegaunts
10 spinegaunts
10 spinegaunts
10 spinegaunts
10 spinegaunts
310 pts.



3 zoanthropes (3x synapse, 2x psychic scream, 1x warp blast)
175 pts

2 sniperfexes (BS, VC, BS3, w5, flesh hooks)
328

total: 999

 

[GH3_master]

I'd drop the rippers, they cost too much. I'd replace them with more spinegaunts. Hormagaunts and lictors are too expensive too. I like the tyrant, but you should spend some points on wings and give the 2 thropes without a second psychic ability. You should probably give the fexes the W. The rippers, (i beleive) are only effective with leaping or wings, which you really dont want to give them in this small of a game. They'd run really fast to the troops and start chomping them up pretty quickly.

 

[Yourand]

Edited my list as seen above
I'm gonna have to use some hormies as spinegaunts but don't think that'll be a problem.
Once again thanks for the help guys!

 

[Zakrael]

There's always something strangely satisfying about seeing all six troops choices filled up before you hit 1000 points.

But yeah. Thumbs up on the army. Plenty of tank-killing power, the Tyrant will mess up any guard unit that it comes across, and that many gaunts is a pretty damn good distraction.

 

[Yourand]

awwwwww yeah! Played the battle today, a take and hold alpha mission. Everything worked brilliantly! The 'fexes blew up all three tanks (the hellhound IS made of paper mache!), the tyrant made a flank sweep all by himself and run down everything he wanted with the devourers! The gaunts were being shot at, but there were enough of them to last the whole game and STILL be meneacing in the 6th turn. The only thing that had no effect on the games outcome were the 'screams of the zoanthropes. I'll consider dropping them next time, as any guard unit within 18 inches of them is either dead or doesn't need to make a ld check
Anyways, with 2 counters under my control and one contested (there being three on the board), and the only thing left alive being his 6 lascannons unable to shoot anything, it was a solid victory.
And, whats more, this list was A LOT of fun to play with, very much more so than my previous lists that were 100% bent on getting to combat. 2 turns of receiving punishment, 2 turns of getting to combat and 2 turns of dealing the damage that only seems like justice makes for a pretty frustrating, anoying game.
This... this was AWESOME!

I'm now thinking how to modify the list to make it viable against necrons and other meq. Hope I won't have to rework it much.
Cheers everyone!