[DMSolar501]

I have been toying around with several different army lists and believe I have found My preferred list for my area and im seeking a frank evaluation from my fellow servants of the star gods:

Army List:
Lord(Veil of darkness and Res orb) 200pts
10 immortals 280pts

10 Warriors 180pts
10 Warriors 180pts
10 Warriors 180pts

4 Scarabs 48pts
4 Scarabs 48pts
3 Scarabs 36pts

2 Tomb Spyders 110pts

1 Monolith 235pts
--------------------------------------------------------
Total 1497pts


Components and Tactics:
This List focuses on making a cohesive Phalanx that can be split into Smaller independent yet viable sub groups that can hold or contest objectives.

The first two subgroups are as follows: 10 warriors, Tomb Spyder and 4 scarabs. This subgroup functions by using the scarabs as a Cover/CC shield to enhance warrior duration on an objective. The TS will make a scarab swarm of its own and serve as a Counter assault unit of sorts. The second fuction of the TS is merely to allow the possibility of an annihilated warrior squad to have a chance to reinforce another area instead of just dying because there are no necrons with in 6 inches. These two groups are the Wings of the Phalanx.

The second sub groups is the heart of the phalanx. Constantly advancing until in range and laying down torrents of Gauss. This group consists of 10 warriors 3 scarabs and the Monolith. The general strategy again relies on using the 9 wounds of the scarabs as a cover shield. The Portal on the monolith will be used in any round a necron unit with in 18 inches in in melee, pulling them out and subjecting the offending unit to more Gauss fire.

The final Group is the phalanx's spear head the lord and the immortals. Until an opening presents itself the immortals and lord walk with the phalanx giving the warriors the benifits of the Res orb. When an enemy leaves an objective or critical unit under-guarded the lord whisks away to capitalize on the error.

Strategies:

The Strategies of engaging an enemy are going to rely on several factors: Deployment, Mission, Terrain, Your opponent, Your opponents army.

Opponents Army types
Since both you and your opponent will have made your armies with out prior knowledge of what the other is running your both on the same footing. However certain types of armies will have advatages over you while you will have advantages over them. In general there are four types of armies I have encountered: Beatdown, Ranged, Mobile, Balanced. The easiest army to defeat is the Ranged army that sits on its laurels. Merely walk up to gauss range and rapid fire to your hearts content. Beatdown armies are aggressive and will come to you they are betting they will survive your gauss fire and are counting on CC for the win. Careful engagement and teleporting makes this competitive match. Mobile armies that rely on shots on the run are the hard to deal with but by breaking up the force as little as possible you become a rock that survives the punishment the throw at you. Balanced armies are the hardest because you are not playing against a tactic pre-devised but another opponents stratagem. The other types of armies play themselves but a balanced army changes and flows as easily as its general.

Terrain:
When placing the terrain lines of fire and assault need to be assessed. Terrain in itself rarely changed the whole face of the battle but needs to be considered during tactical movement and placement. This army does not hide behind terrain unless it is hold an objective. Instead trying to close and engage in short range fire.

Missions and Deployment:
Capture and control tactics revole around centering the phalanx on your objective and waiting till your opponent drops thier gaurd so you can teleport close to thier objective in the late game. In both pitched battle and spear head the general strategy would be to set your objective as close to the enemies as possible allowing you to hopefully list forward slightly while still engaging the enemy with medium range fire. Advancing the monolith and teleporting a squad through the portal will allow for a assault and possible capture of the enemy objective with support from a lord teleporting in. In dawn of war there are two choices i would generally take. The first is not deploying any troops at the beginning instead having them all come in on your first turn from your table edge. The second involves using the lord and a group of warriors ar a sort of play action fake. hopefully getting your enemy to deploy thinking you will be there at the end of your next turn and teleporting to the other side of the board to join the emerging phalanx. I would only chose this if i were going second.

Seize ground strategy works out much like cature and contol but the armies ability to break off into smaller units becomes an advantage. The basic strategy with this army would be with 3 or 4 objectives attempting to control 2 objectives with either the heart and and a wing or the spear and a wing with attempts in the late game to use the spear to contest an enemy objective through teleporting. With five Objectives attempting to controll three with the wings and heart while the spear reinforces as needed. In either case if you cant start on top of them you want to move the army as a phalanx tile you secure one than break of the smallest sub unit starting with the wings and moving on to the next objective. The same strategies for deplayment in C&C apply in sieze ground.

Annihilation is won by this army by maintaining the phalanx and selectively engaging enemy units while popping things with immortals. Unlike the other missions your placement during deplayment will most certainly vary with direct correlation to the enemy troops. Against range and mobile units deploy as close as possible. Against CC units try to flank the army and not engage it on a front so you can deal with as few threats as possible at a time.

Now I wont go into fighting your opponent because that is best saved for military treatises but I believe I have covered the lion's share of tactical applications for this army in a competitive arena. If there is a specific army or tactic I have not covered but you have encountered please let me know so i can anticipate and adapt to it if I Encounter it. If you feel my list is lacking in a unit or capability tell me and I will respond with why I dint choose that unit and how the army overcomes or deals with the disadvantage of not having that unit.

Lastly I know this is long winded but I feel a competive army is not one that wins solely by metagame and army building but by tactical choices. I feel strategy is more than run up the middle with the monolith surrounded by the warriors and oh yeah there are tomb spyders in there. That is why I took the time to explain the "basic" strategy of this army because without it you merely got a list.

 

[shas_on_u]

Very well laid out tactics but it seems you basically addressed the only problem with this list yourself. If you re-read your post you will find that the scarabs are essentially not needed. You have a good strong core and a good strategy but I usually see scarabs only in fast lists or warrior heavy lists using them as screens. With 30 warriors your list is definitely not warrior heavy and your army is extremely slow.

I think in objective missions the list would do well due to your "splitting" function but in anniahlation especially against firing lines I recon you would definitely struggle a lot. Because you neither have speed or long range. This list would benifit enoumously from either wraiths, flayed ones or destroyers. You need to be able to engage the opponent with something threatening from at least turn 2. This list would struggle for turn 3. Wraiths are fast and pack a punch in combat and due to thier high initiative should be able to sweep up a couple of units before they die. Destroyers are both fast and long range so will be able to provide covering fire until the rest of the army gets in range and flayed ones would work in a similar way to wraiths. If you took out the scarabs you could fit either 7 flayed ones or 3 wraiths in. Take out a spyder or a couple of immortals on top of that and you can get your self 3 destroyers.

 

[Alzer]

Definitely a very interesting tactic set up. I would be most interested to see how this works out. The only thing I could think of to change would be to split your immortals. A 10-man squad can be dangerous to deep strike, as there are so many models. A 5-man unit, on the other hand, can fit into a spot rather nicely, and take out priority targets. Also in the return fire that is generally laid into a flying circus the whole squad is potentially wiped out, or if you're very unlucky, swept. With a second squad around, your lord gets a chance to port back and grab a fresh bunch of immortals to repeat the strike on turn 3 or 4.

I must say, it is uncommon to see a list without any destroyers. though I can see your reasoning with the scarab shields I worry about the damage output potential of this force.

 

[DMSolar501]

.... your army is extremely slow .

The speed of the army was definitely considered in the deployment section. Given a Stationary long range army setting up at the maximum distance from the board i would have to close at a around 30" given a 4'X6' (24 for the deployment + 18 for 6 inches from oponents board and minus the 12 for rapid fire). Given this the warriors will average third or forth turn if my opponent doesn't move at all. The scarabs in this case would turbo boost up gaining a 2+ cover save and assault the next turn tying up units allowing my phalanx to close. At the turn two with scarabs in charge range the lord is free to teleport into attack position. Now the Immortals foot slogging would clost the overall 42" separation in 2 or three turns with run rolls and a 24 inch assault range. So the tactical advantage at this point would be to have the lord port not with immortals but with warriors. Since the Scarabs have assaulted out of range of the phalanx the TS would serve as the cover monsters.

The worst possible case is facing a long range army in an annihilation match with dawn of war set up. But this should only happen 1/9th the time that I encounter those long range SoB's. In which case the scarbs and monolith are vital to closing the gap and having the phalanx survive! Or alternaely i can deploy one unit of warriors with the lord while DS in the monolith and having it spew forth warriors given a quick port back to the table edge I could still engage the enemy by turn 3 with 20 warriors 10 immortals, a monolith and the lord.

In anniahlation especially against firing lines I recon you would definitely struggle a lot. Because you neither have speed or long range. This list would benifit enoumously from either wraiths, flayed ones or destroyers. You need to be able to engage the opponent with something threatening from at least turn 2. This list would struggle for turn 3. Wraiths are fast and pack a punch in combat and due to thier high initiative should be able to sweep up a couple of units before they die. Destroyers are both fast and long range so will be able to provide covering fire until the rest of the army gets in range and flayed ones would work in a similar way to wraiths. If you took out the scarabs you could fit either 7 flayed ones or 3 wraiths in. Take out a spyder or a couple of immortals on top of that and you can get your self 3 destroyers.

Three wraiths tend to die very easily and they are great for tying up Non cc units but Power weapons destroy them even with invulnerable saves. A SM devastator sqaud that seems like the perfect target for the wraiths However:
wraith attacks on charge 12: average hits 6 :average wounds 5: average dead SM 1 1/3
Sm attack 4: average hits 2:averabe wounds 1:average dead waiths 1/3+
Sergenat with PF attacks 3:hits 1 1/2: Average wounds 1 1/4: average DEAD wraiths 5/12 for a total 3/4 wraiths to 1 1/3 sm dead
Next turn they are locked in cc with out the charge bonus and are probably broken by my next turn.

wheras 4 scarabs

Sm attack 4: average hits 2 2/3 :averabe wounds 1 7/9 :average dead scarabs <1
scarbs 16 attacks: average 8 hits:average wounds 2 2/3:dead Sm about one
Sm sergent with PF 3 attacks: 1.5 hits: 1.25 wounds: 2 1/2 models dead
1 1/2 wounds due to no retreat with armor saved down to 1/2 hound so on average 1 scarab survives with two wounds till next turn when my immortals and hopefully rest of the phalanx is in range.(I would analyze IG specail weapons but i dont have the codex with me)

This statistical analysis shows that in tying up the scarabs are as effective against SM but cost a third the price of wraiths. Wraiths do have some tank killing abilities that the scarabs lack but in that case the scarabs would be used as mobile cover saves for the phalanx to engage. Same rule applies for the Flayed ones in this sort of manner the army becomes more effective(slightly) in one location but loses the CC and cover screens.

Next as to the lack of use of destroyers I have repeatedly ran a full compliment of 15 but chose immortals over them for the ability to pop anywhere on the board and dish out similar amounts of fire power(20 str5 ap4 shots VS 18 sct6 ap 4). Plus having the immortals keeps my PO at a reasonable level. Considering dropping a TS would hamper the force splitting capabilities as well as removing one of the few reasons my opponent has not to charge me.

I feel with the mutable strategies i have laid out that i have justified the need for the scarabs in the armies. They are bullet magnets and power weapon sponges. Plus they allow for tidy distraction of opponents long range guns. Most opponents would not simply ignore the scarbs zooming into toward them and would immediately pour all of their fire into them. With turbo boostas ans small rules they have a great chance of tying up long range troops for multiple turns. Plus if you cant assault my warriors because of some scarabs that means my warriors dont get swept!

Definitely a very interesting tactic set up. I would be most interested to see how this works out. The only thing I could think of to change would be to split your immortals. A 10-man squad can be dangerous to deep strike, as there are so many models. A 5-man unit, on the other hand, can fit into a spot rather nicely, and take out priority targets. Also in the return fire that is generally laid into a flying circus the whole squad is potentially wiped out, or if you're very unlucky, swept. With a second squad around, your lord gets a chance to port back and grab a fresh bunch of immortals to repeat the strike on turn 3 or 4.

I must say, it is uncommon to see a list without any destroyers. though I can see your reasoning with the scarab shields I worry about the damage output potential of this force.

I considered Splitting the immortals but decided against it for several reasons. First being offering up more kill points to the enemy. Second being Damage out put of the flying circus and lastly being the teleport is planned as a "precision" tactic not a spam tactic. Plus i can always pop back for some warriors.

As to overa l damage output the maximum shot are 60 str4 ap5+ 20 str 5 ap4 + 3 str 5 ap 3+ either a Particle whip or flux projectors. this assumes the warriors are with in 12 inches but anything should die to that! ...trick is getting that scenario set up with your opponent.

 

[Dark Trainer]

So I'm not a fan of the list. Not to say it wouldn't work. But there's some things I see as flaws.
> In Annihilation you're offering up FREE Kill points. 3 tiny squads of scarabs is 3 free KP's. What's the purpose of the scarabs. Contesting? Use a squad of destroyers that can shoot stuff up all game, then last minute also contest (love turbo boost). Consider instead a LARGE scarab squad (they still die horribly easily, but at least they're not free KPs)
> You have nothing to prevent the enemy from saying, HEY free DEATH. Meaning they'll rush you in 3-4 Rhinos and assault your lines. You have nothing that will beat them. Even basic marines will likely have power weapons, assault marines, etc. CC will destroy you. Consider a Ctan and drop the scarabs and spyders all together. Deceiver is my fav...he makes them think twice about sending their best, as well as he's cheaper.
> I'm not a fan of the immortal teleporting myself. Too much randomness for 480 points of teleporting. You could get 10 destroyers for 500 points and be far more mobile and devastating. PLUS your res orb will be out of range of your phalanx all to often

I'd rank your list a 2 out of 5 for difficulty. 5 being the hardest list ever. I only gave it a 2 since people hate what the monolith can do and Gauss isn't all that bad.

 

[Sancraer]

Its alright. but...
1). Destroyers may have a similar output to immortals but they're going to get more turns shooting. Your flying circus will teleport in, ahnihalate one squad and then get shot by that persons army so it doesn't happen again. If the player is smart his little guns will batter the circus, probably not killing all of it but still whilst his big guns kill warrior after warrior because they no longer have a res-orb protecting them.
2). If your scarabs turboboost up there whats to stop their combat units charging your scarbas? It moves his combat units forward, gets him kp and you lose the scarabs.

I would take the previous mentioned advice of losing the scarabs, and then however many ts/immortals you need to to get destroyers in there to lay down the long range fire this list needs.

 

[shas_on_u]

This statistical analysis shows...

At that point I stopped reading... Its just a game!!! I have done all the math and all that lot myself but how many games with a necron list have you actually played!!!
I've played 30 odd and won most of them. So please don't talk down to me like you own the place. You may have done it by accident but it's a bit rude all the same.

In reality the math goes to pot. Yes I know wraiths won't stand up to a devastator squad, yes I know scarabs are better at tar pitting. But what actually happens in game is a random marine with a flamer strolls along and burns the scarabs or a you end up playing the only guy with a redeemer and you loose your entire scarab unit. The way to build a list is to look at all the different currently used strategies and see if they work and if you like them. Then after you've done all that, and only then, you can turn up with a completely new untried strategy and claim that it's better than everyone else's who have been playing the game for 10+ years.

If, in fact, you have actually done all that and tried every necron list in existence (which is possible I don't doubt that for a minuet having done it myself) then please try to not post essay's that could basically be condensed into a paragraph and, whether accidentally or not, talk down to everyone else.

But above everything else if you just came to put your list up and then simply tell everyone that it doesn't need changing and go to great lengths to prove it doesn't need changing, don't bother. If your list is perfect then say in your post: "Here's a perfect list try it out", rather than implying we should comment or make suggestions on it.

Dark trainer summed up everything I wanted to say anyway but if you really think your list is a s good as you say it is, test it against the following:

Necron Lord (res orb)

12 Warriors
12 Warriors
12 Warriors

Monolith
Monolith
Monolith


If you win well done, you just beat a GT winning list and I take back everything I said.

 

[DMSolar501]

At that point I stopped reading... Its just a game!!! I have done all the math and all that lot myself but how many games with a necron list have you actually played!!!
I've played 30 odd and won most of them. So please don't talk down to me like you own the place. You may have done it by accident but it's a bit rude all the same.

I did not mean to be rude and at the same time you are being unwarrantably rude. I Have been playing necrons since they came out in white dwarf before CA codex but this is irrelavent.

In reality the math goes to pot. Yes I know wraiths won't stand up to a devastator squad, yes I know scarabs are better at tar pitting. But what actually happens in game is a random marine with a flamer strolls along and burns the scarabs or a you end up playing the only guy with a redeemer and you loose your entire scarab unit. The way to build a list is to look at all the different currently used strategies and see if they work and if you like them. Then after you've done all that, and only then, you can turn up with a completely new untried strategy and claim that it's better than everyone else's who have been playing the game for 10+ years.[

I have seen a group of 20 grots take out 10 termies...I know all about randomness. Your point Was that the wraiths would serve the army better than the scarabs and rather than then just say "nu-hua" I gave a reason from my view point on how this was invalid. Next this strategy is not untries just has had limited testing and im looking for ways to improve using the experience of others before i enter a large tourney against armies i have not played before in this current edition.

If, in fact, you have actually done all that and tried every necron list in existence (which is possible I don't doubt that for a minuet having done it myself) then please try to not post essay's that could basically be condensed into a paragraph and, whether accidentally or not, talk down to everyone else.

My necron colection consists of 2 c'tan(both of them) 3 lords on foot 3 lors on dbodies 10 pariah 20 immortals 160 warriors 15 destroyres 20scarbs 9 wraiths 6 spyders 9 heavy destoyres and 2 monoliths and i have tried many 1500 point lists using those unit over the last month or two while finding a army list and strategy I like. As to condensing my coments to a paragraph I seem to be long winded and you seem to be unable to follow your own advice on talking down to people. So in the future I will return the respect you show me.

But above everything else if you just came to put your list up and then simply tell everyone that it doesn't need changing and go to great lengths to prove it doesn't need changing, don't bother. If your list is perfect then say in your post: "Here's a perfect list try it out", rather than implying we should comment or make suggestions on it.

Unfortunately you judged me before reading what came after addressing your comments:

shas_on_u

Originally Posted by DMSolar501 View Post
This statistical analysis shows..

At that point I stopped reading...

So please do not judge my intent till you have looked over the body of my works. I am looking for suggestions and comments i just felt that swapping wraiths as you suggested was a poor choice. Alzers comment was one comment that i took as a serious consideration but one i had already thought about and easily answered where as others who posted afterward broughtr up ones that i have not fully considered.

If you win well done, you just beat a GT winning list and I take back everything I said.

random possibilities aside what strategies was this list used with? I will contact another necron player and do a bat rep it and hopefully isolate further weaknesses in my army.

1). Destroyers may have a similar output to immortals but they're going to get more turns shooting. Your flying circus will teleport in, ahnihalate one squad and then get shot by that persons army so it doesn't happen again. If the player is smart his little guns will batter the circus, probably not killing all of it but still whilst his big guns kill warrior after warrior because they no longer have a res-orb protecting them.
2). If your scarabs turboboost up there whats to stop their combat units charging your scarbas? It moves his combat units forward, gets him kp and you lose the scarabs.

> In Annihilation you're offering up FREE Kill points. 3 tiny squads of scarabs is 3 free KP's. What's the purpose of the scarabs. Contesting? Use a squad of destroyers that can shoot stuff up all game, then last minute also contest (love turbo boost). Consider instead a LARGE scarab squad (they still die horribly easily, but at least they're not free KPs)
> You have nothing to prevent the enemy from saying, HEY free DEATH. Meaning they'll rush you in 3-4 Rhinos and assault your lines. You have nothing that will beat them. Even basic marines will likely have power weapons, assault marines, etc. CC will destroy you. Consider a Ctan and drop the scarabs and spyders all together. Deceiver is my fav...he makes them think twice about sending their best, as well as he's cheaper.

The turbo busting scarabs is not the primary purpose of them it was a tactic i suggest when using this army for dealing with long range entrenched units. I am aware of essentially awarding free KP in annihilation but i am hesitant about combining the squads into one just for loss of flexibility in other engagements. I will have to consider breaking them into two sqauds however.

If I were to drop the scarabs ts and 2 immortals I could fit in the deceiver. And if i did that i could drop the immortals for 6 destroyers(subtracting the veil from the lord).The problem Ive encountered with C'tan is their visibility and high point cost. The deceiver would make this list more KP friendly but i would lose the CC screen of the scarabs. On the other hand i could kill things in CC. But if i do that i will have lost the core tactics of this army(multiple force application). I will have to do some more Playtesting...You have given me good points to think about!

 

[shas_on_u]

Sorry, I did seem to get the wrong end of the stick, it might be to do with me being tired at 2 o clock in the morning. Now i can look at it without being in a lack of sleep and alcohole induced daze I should be able to give more warranted advice. I apolagise I wasn't thinking straight... anyway moving on:

I don't think the problem with your list is close combat due to the veil of darkness and the monolith to escape with, neither do I think it's ranged firepower as immortals are almost as powerful as destroyers any way. I think you lack when it comes to something to give your list a little push, some killer item that deals damage. For some people it may be 2-3 Monoliths, others may take lots of destroyers or even a c'tan. The list looks more like a base for 2000pts than a 1500pt list. So baring that in mind and taking a step back for a moment and looking at what other people use I think the best thing for this list would be to either drop the monolith and add extra tomb spyders. The monolith is normally good, but if you do as you say and divide your army up in order to be effective it would have to sit directly between them all and restrict movement greatly. Also splitting you army does leave it open to a section being knocked down and denied WWBB via isolation. Extra tomb spyders would fix that problem and give you list a punch as 3-4 tomb spyders in an assault is a force to be reckoned with.

Doing this would then make it better to split the immortals as it would allow one group to stay behind and support the phalanx while if you deep striked the other near a tomb spyder you wouldn't have to worry about it being wiped out as they would just rejoin the others.

P.S Again i'm sorry ill try not to post while "under the influence" again.

 

[DMSolar501]

first off: Thank you and I apologize as well.

Ive been wavering on having the monolith in the army for a bit but adding 4 tomb spyders and 1 more scarab would give me more options. Ill test out the army with the following:

Lord(Veil of darkness and Res orb) 200pts
10 immortals 280pts

10 Warriors 180pts
10 Warriors 180pts
10 Warriors 180pts

6 Scarabs 72pts
6 Scarabs 72pts


3 Tomb Spyders 165pts
3 Tomb Spyders 165pts
---------------------------------------------------
total 1494pts

Also quick question on the TS and KP's since they operate as individual units in the game each TS counts as a KP correct?

P.S. Im used to running 2500pts games and 1500pts lists feel limiting to me. Because i have limited experience in a more competitive 1500 pt circuit I keep trying to build a 1500 pts list that will take on a 2500pts list and over think a lot of variables. I.E my opponent is limited to 1500 points as well and may not be fielding the punishment im used to taking in 2000+ games. SDo i have experience with the army but not the environment. That in mind i thank all of you for your feedback.

 

[the_pariah7]

P.S. Im used to running 2500pts games and 1500pts lists feel limiting to me. Because i have limited experience in a more competitive 1500 pt circuit I keep trying to build a 1500 pts list that will take on a 2500pts list and over think a lot of variables. I.E my opponent is limited to 1500 points as well and may not be fielding the punishment im used to taking in 2000+ games.

I know the feeling, I've got a 2600pt army (that's assembled at this stage) and been playing a lot of 2000pt-2500pt games.
The key thing really is try and find what 'core' unit(s) (not the minimum 460pts HQ and 2 troops) that work well in your lists and then try to include them in most 1500pt games. Its probably not the best advice I can give to someone who has played far longer than I have but its the best I can offer.