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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi folks! Just getting back into the hobby, haven't played since I was very, very young so in a way, haven't really played at all. I picked SM because I have no intention of paying GWs (or even discount retailers') ludicrous prices for NIB stuff. I've bought a few batches from various online sources and am wondering if I'm going about my list-making totally wrong...

Any advice is appreciated, even totally re-working the lists if I'm way wrong. I don't have much in the way of armour, but would think about more tanks/drop pods, I particularly like the idea of Whirlwinds. Also I'm unnaturally attached to the idea of snipers. I'm aware their rifles took a hefty nerf this edition in losing Pinning and Rending, and I may eventually have my unwavering devotion beaten out of me, but right now I'm gonna try to make them work. Is it a lost cause? How do you guys utilise your snipers? Or do they just never see day?

Anyway, onto the lists:

~~~~~ 500pt ~~~~~

HQ:
Librarian [65]
- Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon

Troops:
5-Man Tactical Squad [105]
- 5 Bolters, Rhino
5-Man Tactical Squad [105]
- 5 Bolters, Rhino

Heavy:
5-Man Devastator Squad [110]
- 4 Heavy Bolters, 1 Bolter

5-Man Devastator Squad [115]
- 3 Missile Launchers, 2 Bolter

It's really all about spamming the Bolter Drill and Tank Hunter Chapter Tactics. The strategy is obvious.
Too simple? Not enough AT?

~~~~~ 1000pt ~~~~~

HQ:
Terminator Captain [120]
- Storm Bolter, Power Sword

Troops:
10-Man Tactical Squad [190]
- 1 Plasma Gun, 9 Bolters, Rhino, Teleport Homer

5-Man Tactical Squad [90]
- 1 Plasma Gun, 4 Bolters, Melta Bombs (Sgt)

10-Man Scout Squad [140]
- 10 Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks

Elites:
5-Man Assault Terminator Squad [225]
- 5 Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields

Heavy Support:
10-man Devastator Squad [220]
4 Lascannons, 6 Bolters

Plan here is to deploy all the Tacs and Devs, Inf the Snipers onto an annoying flank to provide distraction/annoyance-fire, then rhino-rush the enemy and deep-strike the Captain and his Hammernators onto the beacon. Will this work? Is it legal?

~~~~~

That's all I really have right now, concept-wise. I do have more devastators, tacticals and some assault marines and a TLLC Predator (no sponsons) that might help me bump the points value of the force toward the 1500 mark. I also have Antilochus-Armoured Calgar here, and what might constitute an honour guard for him. Are drop-pods worth my time? Could I fit six terminator-armoured guys in one? What about a Dreadnought? I heard they were gash, has that changed/was I misinformed?​
Additional: My Rhinos are actually currently Chaos Rhinos. I got them appallingly cheap and figured I'd convert them. Anyone foresee any problems there? I don't think I have big bolters for the pintle, for example... Is that real bad? :S

And finally, any tips for a beginner SM player? Any tactics I should know about, hard counters i should look out for, or things you wished you knew at the beginning? Not sure who my opponents will be, yet. Have yet to find a gaming group.

Any and all comments welcome! Thanks everyone!
 

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The first list still needs SOMETHING on those Tactical Squads. Bolter Drill is a bonus for your basic guns rather than something to focus on, at all.

For the second list, Scouts work only in two conditions:
1. A 105 point squad with a Melta Bomb and Storm with a Heavy Flamer
2. A minimum squad with Sniper Rifles (camo cloaks optional) camping an objective at home
Ergo, it would be best to probably go for the second option. That saves you points to use on other stuff (Rhino on the second Tactical squad? Combi-Flamer on the Devatator squad? Plenty of options available).
For the Assault Terminator squad, the Captain should be something else. A Chaplain in Terminator costs the same, and buffs the squad MUCH better, while the Terminator Chapter Master is just better (Relentless Orbital Bombardment FTW). Captains are mostly good for two things:
1. Cheap option for unlocking bikes as troops
2. Unlocking a Command Squad to equip bikes and Grav Guns on to do some killing

Those are just my initial thoughts.
 

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Welcome back to 40k!

A full squad of 10 snipers is common to many Marine lists. They're often paired with a Thunderfire cannon so they can stack bolstered terrain with their camo. Why not take snipers in your 500pt list? Take out the heavy-bolter Devastators to make room. The Tactical squads can pick up the slack with a couple upgrades. Two sniper squads is unusual, though. Your backfield gets very static that way. They're also rarely infiltrated. They need to hold still and don't benefit from getting close to the enemy. Shotgun or pistol/CCW Scouts are the aggressive pick.

Whirlwinds are very good for their price. Any opponent not wearing powered armor or hiding in a tank will hate it.

My Rhinos are actually currently Chaos Rhinos.
Shouldn't be a problem. They're just Rhinos with spiky bits added on. The pintle bolters should work fine as counts-as storm bolters. Bear in mind that vehicles do not benefit from Chapter Tactics with the exception of Iron Hands.

Are drop-pods worth my time? Could I fit six terminator-armoured guys in one? What about a Dreadnought? I heard they were gash, has that changed/was I misinformed?
Terminators can't take Drop Pods as dedicated transports. Pods can be great when used well but they aren't essential. Look at other lists to see how players use them and there's a still-valid Pod Tactica in the 40k Tacticas subforum you can read.

Dreadnoughts are good in this edition. (In 6e, the smash rule was crippling.) They have a powerfist-equivalent that can't be sidelined by a challenge, don't die instantly in close combat like Predators do and synergize with infantry. A Dread with TLLC or assault cannon/missile launcher would work fine alongside a Sniper squad, for example, serving as a bodyguard while throwing dakka across the field. The Ironclad variant is often used in Drop Pods because it's near-immune to plasma guns and autocannons.

And finally, any tips for a beginner SM player?
Look at what other players are doing in the armylist and battle reports forums.

I like to use large squads and make use of combat squadding as needed. It gives me options, enough bodies that a few bad dice rolls won't wreck my plans and it's a trademark Marine ability.

Assault Terminators need a Land Raider. They're great with one and terrible without one because they're slow and dedicated to close combat. Deepstriking is no substitute; it'll be at least Turn 3 before they do anything.

Redundancy with vehicles is valuable. Two of a unit is three times better than one. You're experimenting for now and that's fine, but eventually you'll want to double up on what works for you.

By 1500 points, you'll need either some anti-air capability or aircraft of your own.

Beyond that, you need to discover how the other players in your area operate. There can be a large difference between hobby-types and competitive-types.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the prompt responses guys! There's plenty of information there for me to ponder over, I may return tonight with some adapted lists having taken these new lessons into account. Then again I just acquired some Fairy Power Spray so I may get distracted with paint stripping tonight =P

Really appreciate the wisdom, folks, thank you both very much! :)
 

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Thanks for the prompt responses guys! There's plenty of information there for me to ponder over, I may return tonight with some adapted lists having taken these new lessons into account. Then again I just acquired some Fairy Power Spray so I may get distracted with paint stripping tonight =P

Really appreciate the wisdom, folks, thank you both very much! :)
I've always found paint stripping a time consuming process but we'll worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
A Dread with TLLC or assault cannon/missile launcher would work fine alongside a Sniper squad, for example, serving as a bodyguard while throwing dakka across the field.
Love this idea. I'll keep an eye out for a TLLC Dreadnought upon my travels. I was planning on using my Predator to just sit there, TLLC Turret no sponsons and just try to Las things. You say that this would serve that exact purpose better while doubling as close support for the snipers...?

I've just whipped this up, it's 3pts short of 1k and was built around your mention of redundancy:

~~~~~ 1000 ~~~~~​

HQ:​
Chaplain [90]​
- Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum​

Troops:​

9-man Assault Squad - Dismounted [168]​
- 2 Flamers, 8 Bolt Pistols, Melta Bombs (Sgt.), Rhino​

10-man Tac Squad [Combat Squads] [200]​
- 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Multi Melta, 8 Bolters, Rhino​

10-man Tac Squad [Combat Squads] [200]​
- 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Multi Melta, 8 Bolters, Rhino​

10-man Scout Squad [Combat Squads] [120]​
- Sniper Rifles​

Heavy:​

10-man Devastator Squad [220]​
- 4 Lascannons, 6 Bolters


I was hoping to Combat-Squad each of the Tacsquads into a Melta team and a Plasma team, so that the meltas can more easily stand still when they need to without bogging down the whole unit. The snipers support the anti-infantry agenda while sitting around in the homefield (CS'd to cover two home objectives if they aren't feeling pressured?), while the Devastator's anti-armour objective is to some extent assisted by the melta-Tacs moving forward, and also the melta-bomb potential of the assault squad. I elected not to combat squad the assaults because they want to be swarming right?

Ditched the assault terminators. I just don't have a delivery mechanism for them and until i find an uber-cheap landraider I won't have. Figured the HQ wants a spot in that Rhino, and that he can't be wearing termie armour cause he'll eliminate the chance for sweeping advances/unit wipes, yes?

Is my little assault shenanigan there legal? Am I reading that right? By paying a little more I can use my tacticals as dismounted 'assaults' in order to pack double the flamers and bolt pistols/chainswords? Is that a good idea? Would sticking a unit like this in a Land Raider Crusader along with a small Assault Termie squad be hilarious for me or for the opponent?

Edit: Also, I haven't included things like the Whirlwind (at one point I had a perfect points total remaining to stick one in) because I don't have them. If this list isn't terribad, I could probably field it at my first game next Thursday.

So how did I do? Did I interpret the information I was given correctly, or have I still grabbed the wrong end of the stick?

Finally, and most importantly, are you sick of question marks yet?
 

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Figured the HQ wants a spot in that Rhino, and that he can't be wearing termie armour
I don't recall Terminators being able to use Rhinos at all. If you're thinking about a mechanized list then running the Assault Squad with jump packs would be a better long-term investment. They can follow the Rhinos (or Predators, etc.) for a cover save and leapfrog them when the enemy gets close. Also, Chaplains really want to get the charge. Jump packs make charging much easier than non-Land Raider transports.

It's a bit less redundant but the improved effectiveness of ASM is worth the tradeoff. This would make an excellent list for Ultramarine Tactics. A sneaky way to fit an extra Rhino in would be to buy one for the Devastators with no intention of them using it. Run it empty near the two Tactical Rhinos. When a Rhino is destroyed, the Tacticals can hop in the backup ride. Running a smaller ASM squad would free enough points.

When I run a Chaplain, I like the sergeant of the squad he's with to have a power weapon/fist. Chappie will be busy making challenges which frees Sarge to crush grunts. Having a Veteran Sergeant in the ASM squad also lets you safely pull the dirty trick of splitting the Chaplain off to charge a vehicle solo. There are times when doing so can be a gamechanger.

Would sticking a unit like this in a Land Raider Crusader along with a small Assault Termie squad be hilarious for me or for the opponent?
Not sure I understand-- you can't fit two squads in the same transport at the same time with the exceptions of combat squads and independent characters. I get results using unpacked Assault Marines in a Godhammer Land Raider but that's because, as a Blood Angels player, they're a troop selection for me. Black Templars can do it too, I suppose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Would sticking a unit like this in a Land Raider Crusader along with a small Assault Termie squad be hilarious for me or for the opponent?


Not sure I understand-- you can't fit two squads in the same transport at the same time with the exceptions of combat squads and independent characters.
Got it, valuable lesson. Sorry I don't currently have a 7th Rulebook (or indeed any at all), but I'm in the process of trading for one, so the stupid questions will dry up eventually! Thanks Intrepid, everything you're saying is slotting neatly into Knowledge.

So a Jump-packed assault squad of the configuration I described but with a PW'd Vet. Sgt., and put a Jump-pack on the Chaplain too? Reduce the size of units in order to purchase this and another rhino for the devastators which can play switcheroo with the tactical rhinos.

What about something ludicrous, like a little squad of scouts, a tac squad and a buckload of devastators? And why the Ultramarine CT? For that turn of re-rolls for the assaulters, or simply because I'm spread so evenly between the three infantry types? I had a hard time upon learning about CT's in seeing how anything listed is better than permanent rerolls for bolter weapons and tank hunter on your tank hunters...
 

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I'm not a fan of melee characters if they aren't in a real deathstar, but that might be due to the nature of the game in my parts; I wouldn't ever expect that Assault Squad to keep the Chaplain safe for that long.

Maybe the Librarian or MotF would be better. You're doing Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics anyway, so best you stick away from melee with the characters overall bar VERY few exceptions.
 

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I'm not a fan of melee characters if they aren't in a real deathstar, but that might be due to the nature of the game in my parts; I wouldn't ever expect that Assault Squad to keep the Chaplain safe for that long.

Maybe the Librarian or MotF would be better. You're doing Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics anyway, so best you stick away from melee with the characters overall bar VERY few exceptions.
Lysander might be one of those exceptions, ;)
 

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And why the Ultramarine CT? ... because I'm spread so evenly between the three infantry types?
Yep. UM buffs whatever is most important at the moment, three times in a game.

What about something ludicrous, like a little squad of scouts, a tac squad and a buckload of devastators?
I've seen Imperial Fists spam heavy bolter Devastators and get results but most players find better uses for their Heavy slots. Lots of vehicles have heavy bolter-proof front armor.

I had a hard time upon learning about CT's in seeing how anything listed is better than [Imperial Fists]
No problem, it depends on your playstyle as much as anything. One extra advantage of Imperial Fists you can look forward to is eventually including Lysander. He's the top beatstick in the Codex and you're already interested in Assault Termies & Land Raider... his natural home.

I wouldn't ever expect that Assault Squad to keep the Chaplain safe for that long.
My experience is that, because close combat isn't a good primary tactic in 7e, many players ignore it entirely. That means an otherwise-average assault unit has a golden opportunity once they get stuck in. That obviously won't be the case for every player group, of course.

Jump Marines have the extra advantages of ignoring intervening terrain, being able to run down not-fast armor on foot and the occasional deepstrike shenanigan. Paired flamers is always fun, too. Sigh, all my BA brothers gave up on them just because "Descent of Angels" spam lost its luster....

Edit: Ninja'd by Ironweevil!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I shall have to look up this Lysander character...

There's something I've been wondering for a while and can't seem to find a definite answer: Will GW stores and your average FLGS/gaming group want me to use the Lysander model for Lysander, or can I stick some according weapons onto the terminator captain I already have? And some of the marines I have are wearing hooded cloaks and such, I've decided to use them as Sgts even though I think they're actually a different sub-army of marine. There are many examples of this spread throughout my army where I'm using /this/ model for /that/ just because he's the special-est model I have or fits the bill or w/e. It's explained away in the fluff for my custom chapter but is somebody eventually gonna have grounds to say "no" or is that artistic flair up to me entirely (WYSIWYG armaments notwithstanding...) ??

Also I've just found the 10 snipers I want (5 w/o Camo Cloaks for added WYSIWYG :D ), another Rhino and a Land Raider Crusader (the one with the huge transport capacity but wierd guns) for £30. I figured I want the rhino/snipers and the crusader brings my assault termies back into play, but get the feeling six guys in a sixteen-capacity is a waste. Should I hold out for a better kind of 'Raider? What variant would you suggest? I'm even happy to wait and find an on-sprue 'raider floating around the internet so i can assemble it correctly and magnetise weapons for interchangeability if it makes gameplay sense as well as hobbying sense.

Thanks for all the advice and kind words everyone, nice community here it seems :)
 

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You can use a model to represent Lysander if you don't have him, just as long as he is carrying the same equipment. Lysander is nails but you can get a Chapter master for about the same cost. You can take a Chapter Master with Terminator armour, the shield eternal and a Thunder hammer for 235pts. Whilst the Master's Hammer is inferior he packs +1A and an orbital barrage. As well as opening up Honour Guard. As for the marines in cloaks, you can do what the hell you want to be honest. Just as long as that marine is carrying the right equipment. I have robed Sergeants leading my Blood Angels squads.

Crusaders are quite nice. I prefer Redeemers myself as I like burning things :D 5 Terminators with TH&SS led by a Captain/Lysander/Master can do an awful lot of damage to someone. More models helps but that unit is already expensive (600-700pts including their ride) so investing more points into a death star just leaves your force short.
 

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Most every game store and player is tolerant of conversions. Official events can require models to have only GW bits but that's about it. Just keep things WYSIWYG!

The LR Crusader is what you want to use for Terminators. They take up two spaces each in a transport so the Crusader has an 8-Terminator capacity.
 

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I shall have to look up this Lysander character...

There's something I've been wondering for a while and can't seem to find a definite answer: Will GW stores and your average FLGS/gaming group want me to use the Lysander model for Lysander, or can I stick some according weapons onto the terminator captain I already have? And some of the marines I have are wearing hooded cloaks and such, I've decided to use them as Sgts even though I think they're actually a different sub-army of marine. There are many examples of this spread throughout my army where I'm using /this/ model for /that/ just because he's the special-est model I have or fits the bill or w/e. It's explained away in the fluff for my custom chapter but is somebody eventually gonna have grounds to say "no" or is that artistic flair up to me entirely (WYSIWYG armaments notwithstanding...) ??

Also I've just found the 10 snipers I want (5 w/o Camo Cloaks for added WYSIWYG :D ), another Rhino and a Land Raider Crusader (the one with the huge transport capacity but wierd guns) for £30. I figured I want the rhino/snipers and the crusader brings my assault termies back into play, but get the feeling six guys in a sixteen-capacity is a waste. Should I hold out for a better kind of 'Raider? What variant would you suggest? I'm even happy to wait and find an on-sprue 'raider floating around the internet so i can assemble it correctly and magnetise weapons for interchangeability if it makes gameplay sense as well as hobbying sense.

Thanks for all the advice and kind words everyone, nice community here it seems :)
If it's on the proper base size, has something like a hammer and something like a shield, and it looks futuristic, it should work.

To me, there's only two real options for Land Raiders:
1. Use the Crusader. Easier to get shots off with the sponsons. Add the Multi-Melta and it's 260
2. Don't use one and use the Spartan Assault Tank with Ceramite for 315
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Good evening gentlemen. I have awayed and meditated upon your wisdoms. ..


I also managed to pick up my first NIB models for a price I could justify paying. Got myself 2 Stormtalons. Very excited to start putting them together! I'm a little worried though, first model I'll have assembled since my age was single-digit and the perfectionist attitude I've acquired in the abridging years will torment me forever if I cock anything up. Also going to get some Neodymium magnets (anyone know the best UK source?) so I can properly magnetise the weaponsets, so there's a little bit of jumping in at the deep end involved. Might see if there's room for some circuitry while I'm all the way down there drowning:




Anyway, some lists I mocked up to take into account my new models, while I wait for my trusty Fairy Power Spray to soften up the armour on this icky old Predator I acquired. (Another) Sidenote: Anyone know if there's a reliable way to pry these panels apart again so I can improve the build job? Unfortunately some evidence does point to the use of plastic cement.. :S At the very least I'd like to get the turret off for re-affixion, as didn't I read somewhere that the LoS for armour-mounted weaponry is traced down the weapon's barrel/casing and thus the vehicle's turret needs to pivot or the vehicle is at a massive disadvantage..? Any tips welcomed :)


As you can see I struggled to fit a 'Talon into the 500pt list, even though I suspect it really doesn't belong there. I figure if I bring it in from reserves it could work, so it at least gets one shooting phase, then this kind of low points bracket guarantees it's going to have a table full of it's favourite food: infantry and low-AV armour. Is my gut right, though? Is its price-to-fragility ratio just too great for this application?


~~~~~ 500 ~~~~~


HQ
Librarian [65]
- Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon


Troops
10-man Tactical Squad [205]
- Plasma Cannon, Plasma Rifle, 8 Boltguns, Rhino


5-man Scout Squad [60]
- Sniper rifles


5-man Scout Squad [60]
- Sniper Rifles


Fast
Stormtalon [110]
TL Autocannon, TL Heavy Bolter


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


And a 1000pt list, where I'm initially tempted to give one of the Talons Lascannons but as far as I can tell, hovering it in a corner as an airborne version of the TLLC sniper-predator is tantamount to model-abuse, as it'll get swatted like the glass cannon it is if it tries such a thing? For that reason I'm sticking with the Skyhammers, they seem to me to be the most potent (and points-efficient to boot) weapons system to mount on them.


~~~~~ 1000 ~~~~~


HQ
?????


Troops
Tactical Squad [175]
- 10 Bolter, Rhino


Tactical Squad [175]
- 10 Bolter, Rhino


Fast
Stormtalon [125]
- TL Autocannon, Skyhammer Missiles


Stormtalon [125]
- TL Autocannon, Skyhammer Missiles


Heavy
Predator [100]
- TL Lascannon


So this is as far as I got with this one. 300pts left, and I figure that'll buy me a HQ, some Upgrayedd for the Tacticals* and maybe a sniper squad to fill out the points? I'm a bit rubbish with HQ tbh, I keep getting to those pages and being like "But a bog-standard librarian saves me so many points!". Why pay for extra Attacks when they're wasted unless in a melee squad? Pay 120 points for a big shiny bloke with, ultimately, a standard Bolter to stand near my snipers and attract bullets... And I could buy him some better weaponry but it's not like he can have a Lascannon and hide in a building or such. And I don't own/intend to use a dedicated melee unit until I'm forced to, so the only reason I can see to pay more is for extra Wounds/Sv. in order to deny my opponent First Blood/Slay The Warlord... I know it's just me being a newb, but as far as I've seen most HQs seem to be for gearing your army toward a particular gimmick, which I'd rather not do - certainly not at first... So what do I do?


To clarify the lists and their newfound full-of-stormtalons natures: I realise that the Stormtalons aren't a centerpiece unit, and that relying on them isn't a long-term plan because they can be plinked quite easily. More, I hope to use them as a combination shock-troop-come-shiny-thing. They are by far the most maneuverable firebase I've even considered owning, but also compared to a vanilla rhino-heavy ground force, the 'talons may look shiny enough to soak up all the opponent's fire on occasion, saving my foot troops a turn here and there of grim-faced advancing through incoming rounds. And I hear they're quite good at chewing up infantry if there's no enemy flier/armour to tussle with. Besides, new models, you know...


* For a double dose of their pimping, naturally.


So whaddaya reckon? I realise that without knowing what kind of opposition I stand to face, you're limited in your ability to advise, but I'm definitely learning things from my interactions with you folks, and I definitely have some glaring gaps in my knowledge that I think may be salved here :)

Thanks for your time!

~ Daej
 
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