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Discussion Starter #1
I'm looking for an army list to use against my two friends who play Lizardmen and Skaven respectively.

I have no idea what to look for when using Undead armies since i'm just starting out! I'm not a fan of Vampires so if i don't need them or they can be replaced with other characters then the would be great. I've looked at the Games-workshop site and looked at the models I like and whatnot.

We play 8th edition, End Times units are accepted, rules not the Age of Sigmar stuff.
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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Ouch, it's a shame that they cut the Tomb Kings. My friend put together a list recently, mixing Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings, and it is brutal.
If you can get the TK book, you might be able to find models secondhand. All the 8th edition books are still available legally on iTunes, when I last checked.

What kind of list are you drawn to? Especially, because you say that you want to avoid Vampires. So.... why Undead? The vampires are what usually draws people in.

If you want to avoid Vampires, you can get away with Necromancers and Wight Kings for your Wizards and Standard Bearer, plus the option to sub in Tomb Kings.

I would advise that if you and your group are just getting into 8th, you avoid the End Times rules - they aren't bad, but they make the game needlessly complex and can unbalance it. Often, players seem to cherry-pick the different rules, especially since we only get a few of the rules in each book. It also opens common pitfalls with new players, by allowing a lot of spam and "quality over quantity" type choices, which will hurt you as you learn more about the actual gameplay. With Undead in particular, it opens choices on a level only rivaled by Chaos Legions.

Take a look around some of the lists here on LO, or let us know what models you're attracted to, or just "why Undead", and we might be able to put something together. Right now, you're sort of throwing us about 3 books with quite a few possible directions and saying, "I want a list." I can give you my list, but I'm not sure it would match your playstyle (and includes Vampires).
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I like the idea of The Undead in general and raising the dead and necromancers and stuff like that. The Morghast Harbingers and Nagash are what drew me in the most.

I looked into The Undead the Tomb Kings and the Vampire Counts and I have no idea where to start with anything, hence why i'd thought to post for some help.

I'm really more of a werewolf guy in the Vamp vs werewolf but since there really aren't any werewolves there's not much i can do but accept the vampires if i have too. So if it works and the army is viable but still fun to play without the vampires then that is what i'm looking for but if such a list doesn't really exist then having vampires such as Mannfred would be acceptable! Usually i just get the coolest looking models and make an army but my friends are getting more into the game and more competitive so I need something more than just visually appealing.

The models that i found that are really cool are Morghast harbingers, Crypt Horrors and Vargheists!
I appreciate the time you're taking to help me out here!
 

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Drill Sergeant
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there really aren't any werewolves

Not seen these then? ;) You could always use the rules for Vampires to represent werewolves. Using the more 'beastly' traits/bloodline powers should it should be fairly easy to make a suitably wolf-like Vamp.
 

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Hmm, not sure that I'd try to go hardcore competitive if you guys are just playing among friends. It's really easy to end up wrecking Fantasy, as it's not necessarily the most balanced game in the world. If you build an "all comers" army, designed to take on every army in the game, it's less noticeable; you might have a few "good" match ups an a few bad ones, but overall your chances are going to be a fair 50/50. Once you tailor lists though, it becomes very clear that some armies just don't match up all that well against others. Furthermore, if you look at old Tournament results from 8th, you'll notice some armies that don't show up often, or don't show up near the top. In a similar situation to tailoring, if both players are fielding armies based on something like fluff or the models they like the looks of, you'll have a relatively fair experience. If both players start pushing the limits and making their lists competitive, you'll find that some armies seem to "run out of steam" towards those upper levels.
If you are playing against the same 2 lists every time, and are focused on remaining competitive - you're going to find yourself playing the same exact lists, often with very predictable outcomes, most games. It gets boring. My group is similarly small - most games these days are between myself and my best friend. However, between us, we have all but 2 of the armies. It forces us to take "All Comers" lists, because we don't know what army the other will bring, an if a list seems to be doing unusually well, we will pit it against different armies until we find the one that it struggles against. There's usually at least one.

The only other caution - careful with the End Times rules. Most people that I know, only use the 50% Lord/Hero allowances, and the armylists. The rules themselves can get wonky. For example, with the 'End Times: Archaon' book, they throw out the army restrictions altogether - want to build an entire army out of Nagash-es? Sure! Want to have 6 Battle Standard Bearers? Go right ahead! The other one that people tend to throw out, is the magic from 'End Times: Khaine', where wizards know every spell from whatever lore they chose. That means that Nagash knows 41 spells, and can cast all of them. The Lore of Undeath also gets a skip. The ability to summon units that readily is very scary - sure, everyone has access to it, but it comes down to who can buy more Undead models to summon in.

The last consideration before we get into list-talking, is this: Vampire Counts are already pretty close to the top of the heap in terms of competitive ability. The Lizardmen and Skaven are up there too, actually. The difference is that the Lizardmen gain next to nothing from End Times. The Skaven gain a couple of okay units. The Undead gain a lot. But Vampire Counts as a 'vanilla' army, are perfectly capable of winning games against even the End Times Skaven units. But, on to the list options:

Nagash - is the cheesiest thing in the game right now. Even without the 41 spell and 'Khaine Magic', Nagash is a beast. T7, 7W, a 4+4++ and the ability to throw S8 attacks makes him better than a Greater Daemon, or any character astride a Dragon or other big beasty. That's before getting to his Magic. At Lvl6, the option to roll up to 10D6 for casting, and reroll your miscast... he's pretty much the best Wizard in the game. He's also forced to use Undeath, and even being able to spam Ryze is pretty cruel.

Morghasts - these are pretty good, nothing really "stand out" about them, other than the fact that they'll help to keep you from losing too many models in bad fight. You can get a lot better from the two books though, if you want to grab Tomb King stuff you get the Ushabti, or stay vanilla for Vargheists or Crypt Horrors.

Horrors and Vargheists - either choice is solid. I lean a lot more towards Horrors, especially in your situation where you're not running a Vampire for a general. Either unit hits like a ton of bricks, the Horrors have a lot more staying power, but the Vargheists are fast and can sometimes pick their fights more easily.

Like I said - my list runs a lot of Vampires, and is a "vanilla" Vampire Counts list (no End Times, no Tomb Kings). My friend runs an End Times "mixed" list that he put together just recently, and it is evil. He does use Vampires, but you could get away with swapping those out, especially if you're willing to use the End Times army composition and push the Lord/Hero to 50% each. Vampires give you the option to (for a lot of points) have one of the most solid combat characters in the game and put a Lvl4 wizard in the ranks. A good alternative is to take a Tomb King or Tomb Prince, and tag on a Herald to eat his wounds for him. Kit the King/Prince with the nastiest combat gear you can, and then put the Wardsave and armor onto your Herald.
His army focuses on playing defense, and is centered around using the Lore of Death, combined with the Casket of Souls. You have to keep him from casting the -3Ld spell, because the Casket is following that up - and that gives him free reign of the magic phase after that. Lore of Light on the undead is just unfunny. For Core, he uses massive blocks of Tomb King Bowmen, Special fields Ushabti. The list isn't very mobile, he just hangs back and hammers you - then intercepts with the Ushabti.

The issue that you're going to have - especially if you're limited to just the VC book - is that you aren't going to be able to run your general up into combat. With Tomb Kings, you can run a Prince of King, but he has to be on foot. You can only march within 12" of your General, unless the unit is vampiric, like Vargheists, Blood Knights, an so forth. So your army is gonna be sloooow. Slower than Dwarfs, actually - except for that 12" march bubble. So focus on your infantry. Grave Guard are solid, and actually get even better with a Tomb King or Prince thrown in for the extra WS.

The only reason I'd take the Vargheists over Crypt Horrors in that list, is if you want something to reach out and turn flanks. At the price though, you might be able to nab Blood Knights. Being vampires, they can March and move fast enough to get around the flanks or reach out and be that "first wave" if the enemy tries to hang back and outshoot or outmagic you.

Figuring out what to do with your Core is the biggest issue in an Undead army. With vanilla Vampires, you get either Zombies or Skeletons. Crypt Ghouls are pretty good, but they're pricey - not quite a "tarpit" unit, but they don't hit as hard as Grave Guard. Skeletons are good "anvils" - resilient enough that you won't explode on combat resolution. That's useful if you plan to hold the enemy up and then flank them with something a little harder hitting. Zombies are good as a tarpit - you're gonna use the unit, Zombies die faster than you can revive them, and they're not worth trying to keep on the table. Instead, they line up against the enemy you don't want to fight, and hold them long enough for you to deal with the rest of the army - or snag their entire battle line by keeping units from moving out of each others' way. Dire Wolves are oddly best suited for Tomb Kings, where they can be used to slow the enemy advance one turn at a time, and buy you more chances to shoot. In either army, you can screen with Dire Wolves. Summoned Zombies (from the regular Lore of Vampires) can handle that role as well, later in the game.

I say - go ahead through the books and try to think of some synergy and put something together. It's easier to critique a list than to write one for someone without quite knowing what they're going for themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Vampire Lord - Aura of Dark Majesty, Heavy Armour, Lore of Undeath, Red Fury, Shield, Supernatural Horror, Wizard Level 4, Zombie Dragon, Book of Ashur.


Crypt Ghouls x38 - Champion

Dire Wolves x5 - Champion

Morghast Archai x2

Crypt horrors x3 - Champion

This is a list I made on BattleScribe I obviously don't know what i'm doing but i figured if a Vampire is really good maybe i'll have just one haha
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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Alright, I can at least pick some stuff up from that.
Firstly, you're playing 1500pts, and that matters. That's a small game, and Warhammer "gets wierd" at small sizes. You don't necessarily have space to take all the "traditional" stuff. For example, without using about 50% of his points, your Lizard friend wont have a Lvl4 wizard, neither of you will have a BSB, and you will both learn to hate Skaven and their dirt-cheap characters, haha.

But for your list -
It's very small, even for 1500pts. You're really relying on getting everyone across the table and smashing faces in combat, ASAP. And really, you're relying on the *Vampire* to be smashing the faces. You just don't have much else that can split up and lay down hits.
Morghasts are more of a support unit, a buff for your army - in a small game, you can't really afford them. There's not a lot for them to actually buff.
For a game this size, your Vampy Dragon is probably overkill in a big way. Will he wreck anything he touches? Absolutely, no doubt. But if he eats a cannonball on T1 or gets ripped off the table by a miscast result - there goes half your army, and you don't have much else that can dish out the pain. (Also, be aware of your rules - Supernatural Horror gives Terror, and your Z.Dragon already causes Terror, so it's a waste of points)

Based on your list, and the models you said you like, I tired to come up with something similar:

Strigoi Ghoul King on Terrorgheist w/ Red Fury, Aura of Dark Majesty, Dread Knight
570pts

Necromancer
65pts

24 Crypt Ghouls (necro goes here, 5x5)
240pts

5 Dire Wolves
40pts

2x 6 Dire Wolves
96pts

3 Vargheists
138pts

2x Varghulfs
350pts
1499/1500pts

You still get a big nasty monster. He's a bit cheaper than the Vampire Lord, but all you really lose out is some magic levels. You make up for it with a second caster. That's two shots at Invocation, or Ryze. Personally, I lean towards Invocation - the Lord attribute can heal your King/TG, and you can rebuild units rather than making small new ones. Summoning is just really cheesy, especially in smaller games.

You keep your Ghouls, although I'd like to point out that originally, the list had two units of Zombies, 45 and 40, with all the Sites being units of 5. However, I thought that with just one Necro on res-duty, and the theme, Ghouls would be alright.

The Varghulfs and Vargheists give you a really fast component that is not reliant upon on your General to march. Unfortunately, your Ghoul King has to be the general, and you can't field 2 Ghulfs and a Terror in your Rare at this level, so the easiest way to get a Terrorgheist is to mount the King. He could have gone with the Ghouls, to let them march. If you wanted, you could drop Red Fury and Dread Knight, go give your Necro the Book of Arkhan, and one of the Wizards an extra level. That would give you a shot at Van Hels (possibly even twice) on your Ghouls. You could also knock down Aura for the Book, but the -1Ld works really well with the Scream from the Terrorgheist.

Most games of Fantasy run around 2400-2500pts, so I'd save the Morghasts and some of the other tricks for that point. Still, you'll be able to use this army effectively, all the way up through, just by adding units onto this list.

Ironically, your leaning towards "no Vampires" works really well for small games like this, and if you're willing to give up the "big guy on a bigger monster", I could probably build you a very solid Infantry list, with Necromancers and Wights. A cool, "risen dead" theme. Adding in Tomb Kings stuff would make it even nastier, really, but I don't know how you feel about them now that they're OOP.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok yea we haven't played any games together (well they have but i've watched) and my Lizard buddy likes to use a Slann in a group of temple guard. (I'll put list at bottom) and my Skaven buddy has two huge blocks of Clans and Stormvermin with Machines. (again list at bottom). I don't know if their lists are whats considered competitive or good at any rate but we all have fun and lizardmen seem to wreak

I really like that list and i'll see what i can get (remember i still have to buy all these models ^_^) but i also like the idea of the "Risen Dead" Theme thing you mentioned! I think that would be the coolest army comp and is what i wanted from the beginning but dint see a good way of doing so. I'm willing to give up the big guys but they just happen to be the coolest units haha

Yea i have no idea about how to synergize my team comp and what works at different point levels, I made my Leader the best possible thing and then whatever's left goes to who ever hahaha.


Lizardmen list: My buddys are all fairly new as well so like me they are just getting what looks good and it seems to work!

Slann - Lore of High Magic lvl 4, BSB - Standard of Discipline, Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Reservoir of Eldritch Energy, Wandering Deliberations, Channeling Staff, Obsidian Lodestone, Shrieking Blade -515pts

Temple Guard x20 - Full Command, Light armour, shield, Halberd, Sword of Swift Slaying -335pts

Saurus Warriors x30 - Full Command, Shield, Spears -360pts

Skink Skirmishers x10 - Javelins with Shield, Champion -80pts

Chameleon Skinks x5 -65pts

Saurus Scar-Vet (in the unit of Saurus Warriors)- Light Armour, Shield, Spear, Armour of Destiny -142pts

Total Points 1497.

Skaven List:

Warlord (in unit of Storm Vermin)- Additional Hand Weapon, Portents of Verminous Doom, Warpforged Blade, Enchanted Shield, Poisoned Attacks -188pts

Assassin - Shield of Distraction, Weeping Blade -165pts

Warlock Engineer - Ruin Level 2, Warlock-Augemented Weapon, Dispel Scroll -170pts

Clanrats x40 - Shield, Spears, Full Command, Poisoned Wind Mortar, Heavy Armour -285pts

Rat Swarm x3

Stormvermin x30 - Musician, Champion with Poisoned attacks, Doom-flayer, Standard Bearer with Standard of Discipline, Shields, Heavy Armour -350pts

Stormfiends x3 - 2x Doom-flayer gauntlets with Warpstone-laced armour, Warpfire Projectors

Total points 1488

They also ask (since you seem to know a thing or too about warhammer ;) ) if you had any ideas to make their list better or know where they can find someplace to make it better. Like i said though we are all trying to just have fun but being the competitive natures that we are we always wanna get better!
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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First, your Necro list:
Heinrich Kemmler - 350pts
You're not playing this game in respectable company anyhow! Also, this guy's an awesome Lord choice in smaller games - he can boost Skellies above base with Invocation, and his kills revive Grave Guard (where he should be standing). He gets +1 to Cast and Dispel, just like your initial Ashur caster.

L2 Necromancer (Lore of Vampires) w/ Book of Arkhan - 125pts
Potentially a 3rd casting of Vanhel's Danse, out of a bound item (no risk of harming yourself with a miscast). Try for VanHel's, but drop one spell for Invocation for sure.

Necromancer (Lore of Vampires) w/ Rod of Flaming Death - 105pts
You want to mess up Skaven? This will mess up Skaven. If it doesn't, it's because they're terrified of it and are burning dispel dice on stopping it - letting you hammer out a few more Invocations and VanHel's. This guy needs to drop whatever spell he rolls, for Invocation. The only exception might be if he comes up with VanHel's.

Wight King BSB w/ Shield, NightShroud, Luckstone - 159pts
ASL against a unit with Greatweapons? Awesome. ASL when your Greatweapons might be striking at Initiative? Absolutely. Joins the Grave Guard, obviously.

30 Zombies w/ Standard Bearer - 95pts
Zombies have the advantage of being able to be boosted above their starting numbers even without Master of the Dead. I did undersize this unit, but the fact that you should have 3 Invocations means that you should get them kicked up to a respectable size pretty quickly. Zombies exist solely to hold up the units that you can't fight otherwise. You'll get more out of them (and your whole army) once you figure out what units your other regiments can kill, and put the Zombies up against everything else.

45 Skeleton Warriors w/ Full Command, Spears, Screaming Banner - 280pts
Extra fearsome. The Spears are there to capitalize on those possible failed Fear checks, and the option to go Horde-mode. Musician is there for the quick reforms. Don't forget that Kemmler can push these guys above starting numbers - it's advisable. I'd stick one or both of the Necros in here too, for a little extra leadership. Swapping back down to Handweapons and Shields doesn't net you any points, but could be worth it for the extra tarpit abilities.

Corpse Cart - 90pts
Bog standard. ASF on bubble-casts. Keep it slightly behind your Graveguard, but between two units (Skellies) so that it can jump through the gap. A Cart won't hold out against a real threat, but it would be good for pinning down something like the Skinks or a Weapons Team and keeping them out of the way. Mostly, it's here for the ASF buff though.

18 Graveguard w/ greatweapons, Full Command, Banner of the Barrows - 296pts
These guys go 5 wide. That puts Kemmler and the Wight King up front, and there an order to this. You want to abuse the rules for targeting characters and champions. So:
Musician | Wight King | Standard Bearer | Champion | Kemmler
When your opponent is lined up against you, there should be ~3 models in contact with that Wight King who lose their Strength bonuses and strike last. The models on the left side of their unit are only allowed to hit the Musician or the Wight. Having them hit the Wight is ideal - he can take a round or two of wounds, and potentially regains one every time you throw Invocation (lore attribute). In the middle, they either hit the Wight, Standard Bearer, or Champion. Again, the Wight is ideal, but if they swing for the Champion, that's also okay. Remember that if they target their attacks against a character (or are forced to) including the Champion, those wounds cannot spill over into the unit. If they score 4 Wounds against your Champion, they only kill the Champ, and unless it's a challenge, they don't even get Overkill points. Your Champion is also the first guy revived by Invocation. On the right, they should be forced to choose between swinging at the Champ and Kemmler. Kemmler should be Ethereal, which is why he's on the extreme flank - if you're up against a unit wider than yours (like a horde of Skaven) some models will only be able to hit Kemmler, and their attacks will be wasted.
In challenges, if they don't have a magic weapon, answer with Kemmler. If they do have a magic weapon, then answer with the Champion, unless you think the Wight King can handle them. You can also issue challenges of your own, in which case the enemy moves to you, and if they decline, you get to kick them to the back.
The last trick with this unit, is that you can use it to safely house one of the Necromancers. Your Command (banner, musician, champ) must go up front. At only 5-wide, you have room for 2 more characters, and any excess will get kicked to the back. So Kemmler and the Wight go up front, and the Necro would get kicked to the second rank (until the Champion dies, then they get pulled into his slot until he's resurrected)

The strategy with a list like this, actually isn't too different than the monster army that I posted earlier - you want to hit hard, and hit fast. Use the fact that you're guaranteed at least 2 VanHel's, to get to grips with your enemy early. You can bubble it, but with the Book your stuck to the basic version - use it to move your whole army faster than Infantry has any right to, and use the Book cast to get your Zombies into position to block the enemy, or shove your Grave Guard down their throat. Every turn you should also be throwing Invocation. Invocations are your number one priority, unless you get a good Winds roll on your early turn and feel like adding a block of Zombies into the fight with Raise Dead. Always raise Zombies with that spell, btw - any of your Necros can use Invocation to boost Zombies, and they boost fast - within a turn or two, you could easily be looking at another block of 30 Zombies on the table.

You could run Lore of Undeath, but I actually am not a huge fan of the Lore. Not just because of the "cheese factor" of being able to boost your army by 20% in one turn, or because you are still in the process of buying models and don't need to have a bunch of extra regiments sitting on the shelf waiting to be brought in. Nope. Lore of Vampires just has a really good sweep of spells. It lets you restore wounds to your units, which is harder to do with Lore of Undeath, and it also has better "utility spells" that can be used to deal some damage to the enemy. Stuff like Wind of Undeath and Raise Dead can still get you some models on the table above and beyond what you started with. But being able to bubble 2-3 Invos across the army (and trip the Cart effect) is what this lore is really for, and what this army was built for.

They also ask (since you seem to know a thing or too about warhammer ;) ) if you had any ideas to make their list better or know where they can find someplace to make it better.
I sure do! And yes - there are forums on here. There are other spots online, but I'm not sure who's still running 8th as a primary system for their forums. Lots of people have moved over to 9th Age, AoS, or Kings of War. Here on LO we've been trying to drum up activity for 8th again, but the transition really scared a lot of people off, and we're looking for the next wave of players - groups like you guys who will (hopefully) either begin to discover the game or drift back after a little while. Just trying to get some momentum going. Borak and I both miss the old days :/

Lizardmen list:
Slann - Lore of High Magic lvl 4, BSB - Standard of Discipline, Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Reservoir of Eldritch Energy, Wandering Deliberations, Channeling Staff, Obsidian Lodestone, Shrieking Blade -515pts
If he's got Wandering Deliberations, he isn't casting anything from High Magic. Deliberations replaces all of his spells with the 8 Lore Attributes from the main rulebook. Also, he doesn't need the Obsidian Lodestone - the Obsidian Amulet (MR2) would be enough. Magic Resistance adds to your Wardsave, and you gain no advantage to having a 1+ Wardsave, a natural 1 will still fail. The Amulet is a bit cheaper, gets you down to that 2+ Ward against magic. Also, the Shrieking Blade is no good - read the rules for Fear on pg69; Fear only affects models in base contact, and because of the way the Slann deploys in the second rank of the Temple Guard, nobody is in Base with him.

Temple Guard x20 - Full Command, Light armour, shield, Halberd, Sword of Swift Slaying -335pts

Saurus Warriors x30 - Full Command, Shield, Spears -360pts

Skink Skirmishers x10 - Javelins with Shield, Champion -80pts
These guys really don't need a Champion. If you want an extra hit (from +1BS) just add a Skink to the unit.

Chameleon Skinks x5 -65pts
Depending on the player, these either work amazingly, or they're useless and you're better off with another block of Skink Skirmishers.

Saurus Scar-Vet (in the unit of Saurus Warriors)- Light Armour, Shield, Spear, Armour of Destiny -142pts
You either get the Light Armor or the ArmoDest. Read pg174 for the rules on Magic Armor. If a magic armor is described as an armor type (Armor of Destiny is described as Heavy Armor) then it will replace mundane armor of that type. The Enchanted Shield replaces a shield, Armor of Destiny replaces Armor. There are only a few items which don't replace mundane armor - usually the Helms, and oddball items like the Nightshroud.

Total Points 1497.

Skaven List:

Warlord (in unit of Storm Vermin)- Additional Hand Weapon, Portents of Verminous Doom, Warpforged Blade, Enchanted Shield, Poisoned Attacks -188pts
Magical Weapons replace mundane weapons (pg 173, 'I'm Using This One'). Additionally, Poisoned Attacks are worthless while using the Warpforged Blade (pg73, Poison doesn't work with magical attacks, also repeated on pg33 of the Skaven book, under the entry for Poisoned Attacks in the Scavenge Pile)

Assassin - Shield of Distraction, Weeping Blade -165pts

Warlock Engineer - Ruin Level 2, Warlock-Augemented Weapon, Dispel Scroll -170pts
This guy's got 70pts of magic items, on a 50pt item budget...
Also, this is the only magic being brought to the table? Everyone else has a L4 (and that Slann is a beast of a L4), and this army tries to get away with an Engineer for a L2? I don't see the point in running an Engineer over a Seer or similar.


Clanrats x40 - Shield, Spears, Full Command, Poisoned Wind Mortar, Heavy Armour -285pts
Where's he getting the Heavy Armor? Clanrats don't have the option. He didn't charge the unit for it, that's the right pts total for the regiment - but they only wear Light Armor base.

Rat Swarm x3

Stormvermin x30 - Musician, Champion with Poisoned attacks, Doom-flayer, Standard Bearer with Standard of Discipline, Shields, Heavy Armour -350pts
I'd pass on the Doom-flayer. If you want to push a glass cannon into combat, get some points somewhere for a Doomwheel.

Stormfiends x3 - 2x Doom-flayer gauntlets with Warpstone-laced armour, Warpfire Projectors

Total points 1488
I think its worth pointing out to your whole group, that you're all making a very rookie mistake - it's also why I don't like the End Times army construction rules. Warhammer is not a game dominated by Lords and Heroes with swords. Rules like Steadfast, means that units will always outperform a character. Even if a character does "hulk out" and win combat, the chances are good that the unit he's dealing with won't Break - and might even have enough models that there's no way for the character to "dig out" before the end of the game. The idea with Fantasy is usually to get "Boots on the Ground". Bigger units, with more ranks, or wider lines for more attacks, or small chaff units to win deployment drops and control the table. That Vampire on a Dragon might be nice, but you could get 2 blocks of Grave Guard for that model - each with 20+ wounds, getting 10-11 attacks, with a Rank Bonus, the chance to negate Steadfast... see where I'm going?
You don't need to have a champion in every unit. Just because the book says you can spend 50pts on Magic Items doesn't mean that you have to. Not every unit needs a magic banner. This problem gets really bad when you open up the 50% limits on Lords and Heroes and start sinking points into those single models.
Your primary concerns for any army, are usually to get a Wizard of the highest available level, and then snag a Battle Standard Bearer. Since you guys are already playing smaller games, where your Core requirements are met by 1-2 regiments, I'd stick with the 25% limitations.
Your Vampires army is actually fully legal as a vanilla, Non-End-Times Vampire list. In fact, Kemmler is not available in End Times armies, so if you want to go that route, you need to swap him out with something else.

Oh, and yeah - the Lizardmen? That list is nasty. He's gonna wreck for quite a while. Neither of you really has an answer to the high(er) toughness prevalent across the board with that list. If I had the chance to sit down and make a "pain-train" list for the Lizards, I could make it a lot, a lot scarier than that. Just a heads up - I've been there; my regular opponent is a Lizardman player, and if you know what you're doing and you push the envelope too hard, it's possible to make that army just... un-fun to play against. The 25% limits could really help reel in that parity.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Lizardmen list:
Slann - Lore of High Magic lvl 4, BSB - Standard of Discipline, Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Reservoir of Eldritch Energy, Wandering Deliberations, Channeling Staff, Obsidian Lodestone, Shrieking Blade -515pts
If he's got Wandering Deliberations, he isn't casting anything from High Magic. Deliberations replaces all of his spells with the 8 Lore Attributes from the main rulebook. Also, he doesn't need the Obsidian Lodestone - the Obsidian Amulet (MR2) would be enough. Magic Resistance adds to your Wardsave, and you gain no advantage to having a 1+ Wardsave, a natural 1 will still fail. The Amulet is a bit cheaper, gets you down to that 2+ Ward against magic. Also, the Shrieking Blade is no good - read the rules for Fear on pg69; Fear only affects models in base contact, and because of the way the Slann deploys in the second rank of the Temple Guard, nobody is in Base with him.

Ok, yeah, we are all still really new too our chosen races. Lizardmen and Skaven have only played a few games against each other and we all just did a quick read of the rules and started playing. Usually forgetting lots of rules and sometimes whole parts haha but we are still learning and making the list properly will take time. Slanns seem so OP i don't understand how Lizardmen could lose!

Saurus Scar-Vet (in the unit of Saurus Warriors)- Light Armour, Shield, Spear, Armour of Destiny -142pts
You either get the Light Armor or the ArmoDest. Read pg174 for the rules on Magic Armor. If a magic armor is described as an armor type (Armor of Destiny is described as Heavy Armor) then it will replace mundane armor of that type. The Enchanted Shield replaces a shield, Armor of Destiny replaces Armor. There are only a few items which don't replace mundane armor - usually the Helms, and oddball items like the Nightshroud.

Ok yea we had some confusion about the armour and which weapons we had to use or if we could switch or whatever. So for clarification, if I had say the Shrieking blade do i have to use that for the Scar-Vets weapon or can he switch weapons and use a one handed with a shield ?

Warlock Engineer - Ruin Level 2, Warlock-Augemented Weapon, Dispel Scroll -170pts
This guy's got 70pts of magic items, on a 50pt item budget...
Also, this is the only magic being brought to the table? Everyone else has a L4 (and that Slann is a beast of a L4), and this army tries to get away with an Engineer for a L2? I don't see the point in running an Engineer over a Seer or similar.

The Roster Editor did say there was anything wrong with it? I don't know o_O I guess he missed the seer or didn't think he needed more magic! I don't know what my friend is thinking haha but i'll mention it to him!

Clanrats x40 - Shield, Spears, Full Command, Poisoned Wind Mortar, Heavy Armour -285pts
Where's he getting the Heavy Armor? Clanrats don't have the option. He didn't charge the unit for it, that's the right pts total for the regiment - but they only wear Light Armor base.

I think the heavy armour is for the champion? maybe he read something wrong or thought he could just add it anyways?

I think its worth pointing out to your whole group, that you're all making a very rookie mistake - it's also why I don't like the End Times army construction rules. Warhammer is not a game dominated by Lords and Heroes with swords. Rules like Steadfast, means that units will always outperform a character. Even if a character does "hulk out" and win combat, the chances are good that the unit he's dealing with won't Break - and might even have enough models that there's no way for the character to "dig out" before the end of the game. The idea with Fantasy is usually to get "Boots on the Ground". Bigger units, with more ranks, or wider lines for more attacks, or small chaff units to win deployment drops and control the table. That Vampire on a Dragon might be nice, but you could get 2 blocks of Grave Guard for that model - each with 20+ wounds, getting 10-11 attacks, with a Rank Bonus, the chance to negate Steadfast... see where I'm going?

-I see! So when playing more competitive you gotta make the armies more like armies rather than just a few big units and hope it all works ahaha

You don't need to have a champion in every unit. - but why wouldn't you? they have better stats!
 

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Ok, yeah, we are all still really new too our chosen races. Lizardmen and Skaven have only played a few games against each other and we all just did a quick read of the rules and started playing. Usually forgetting lots of rules and sometimes whole parts haha but we are still learning and making the list properly will take time. Slanns seem so OP i don't understand how Lizardmen could lose!
Yep! Slann are the best non-named Wizards in the game, and are even better than some of the named characters. One of the easiest ways to shut down a Slann, would be to play by the 25% character allowances rather than End Times 50%. He'd have to cut 140pts off that Slann. The best place to spend your Lord/Hero points, is on Casters. Most armies don't have a problem getting at least a Level4 into games at 1500pts. Games much smaller than that, and yes, you might want to allow up to 50% on Lords and Heroes, just because some armies have a hard time getting any wizards into a small enough game. But 1500pts? 25% is enough for your needs. Because yes - otherwise you're going to end up with stuff that is very off balance. The game and all army books were originally written for 25%. This means that certain things (like Dragons) were priced specifically to be unavailable in games below a certain size. Not just "this model is XXpts good" but also "this model would be entirely unfair in any game below YYpts".
Worth pointing out that the Necro list I posted, only needs about 40ish points cut out of the Heroes, and you're "vanilla legal".

Scar Vet
Ok yea we had some confusion about the armour and which weapons we had to use or if we could switch or whatever. So for clarification, if I had say the Shrieking blade do i have to use that for the Scar-Vets weapon or can he switch weapons and use a one handed with a shield ?
Yes. If you have a magic weapon, you must use that magic weapon, and cannot switch.
Furthermore, any weapons that you buy as upgrades will work in the same way. For example, Chaos Warriors starting equipment is a Handweapon and Chaos Armor - but you can upgrade them to carry Halberds, Greatweapons, and Additional Handweapons. So, if you give them a Halberd, they are always going to use their Halberd in combat. If you give them Halberds and Greatweapons, then you can choose to switch between the Halberd or Greatweapon, but not your basic Handweapon.
Some units also have the option for Shields, which can cause confusion. If you have a Greatweapon and Shields, then can you choose to "use the shield in combat?" No. A Shield is not a Weapon - you have to use the 'Specialist Weapon'. You still get the Shield outside of combat though, which could be worth it.

Warlock Engineer
The Roster Editor did say there was anything wrong with it? I don't know o_O I guess he missed the seer or didn't think he needed more magic! I don't know what my friend is thinking haha but i'll mention it to him!
Sometimes the editors will miss things - especially when items come from two different places, like the Scavenge Pile and Magic Items, or Magic Items and Vampiric Powers. It's usually a good idea to double-check your list with the book. I write all of my lists by hand - it's just basic arithmetic after all.
As far as not needing the magic? You can get away with it. If you're very fast, or Dwarfs.

Clanrats
I think the heavy armour is for the champion? maybe he read something wrong or thought he could just add it anyways?
Can't get Heavy Armor for the Champ
Probably just a misunderstanding. I'm not calling him a cheater, but he is a Skaven player... ;)

You don't need to have a champion in every unit. - but why wouldn't you? they have better stats!
They do, but you pay for it. 10pts for a Champion in a regiment of 5pt Skeletons for example - you can just grab 2 more Skeletons. Remember that the cost for a Champion is an upgrade, so his total cost is 15pts (I have a feeling Skele champs are 8pts, if memory serves, but you get the point). What do you get? +1Attack? +1Ballistic? The easiest to refute is the +1 Ballistic. Say you've got 10 Skinks. You get 10 Shots, or you spend the points from the Champ on an extra model and get 11 shots:

9 BS3 shots = 4.5 hits
1 BS4 shot = .67 hits
Total Hits = 5.17 hits

11 BS3 shots = 5.5 hits

So is it worth it to buy a Champion for a regiment of missile weapons? Nope. Sure, you're not a pretty 5x5 square anymore, but you're probably only in 2 ranks. That's 6 front, 5 second. Still a full rank bonus and so on. The only time you might not do this, is if you're deployed in multiple ranks, say, 3 ranks of 5. Putting an extra model from front would give you ranks of 6, and you'd only have 4 models in that third rank (lose the rank bonus).

For combat, Champions can eat challenges or just be killed by targeted attacks. They're not as bad in a melee regiment, but similar to the Archers - if it doesn't mess up your Rank Bonus, the choice is between +1A, or +1A and +1W at least.
The best place for Champions are in units where you need to eat challenges for Characters. Champions are even a liability sometimes - for example, if you had a regiment of 4 Blood Knights, you couldn't refuse Champion. Put a Champion in that regiment and your opponent pulls him into a challenge, you lose more than 25% of your attacks. Yes, you'll probably evaporate the challenger in question and get overkill points, but if you had worked those out against the unit instead, you may have been able to reduce their rank bonus.
Champions are the first place that I go to when I need to cut points out for my army. 5 Champions at 10pts each? That's the Magic Items allowance on a Hero.

-I see! So when playing more competitive you gotta make the armies more like armies rather than just a few big units and hope it all works
Yep. There are usually 4 main roles for any Warhammer Army:

1) Support - this is your characters, like Wizards and the BSB. Some characters also give special rules to their units (a High Elf 'Annointed of Asuryan' gives his unit a Wardsave, for example). Some units can also fill this role, like the Corpse Cart. Anything that makes your other units better, or even enemy units worse (Bat Swarms). As long as the boost is worth the points you're spending, it's a good thing to include.

2) Chaff - cheap "throw-away" units. These have two jobs. First, they win the 'deployment' game - if your opponent is putting down their best units and you're still putting down 40pt regiments of Dire Wolves, then you can line up your own good units exactly where you want them. Never again will your Assassin be stranded on the opposite end of the board from his general! Chaff units also let you redirect units, or stall them. Say your enemy is lining up charge your Grave Guard with their best regiment. You sneak a regiment of Dire Wolves in between the two, at a slight angle. Now your enemy has to charge the dogs - sure, they're going to wipe out the Dire Wolves in one round, but now they have a choice: do they Overrun and get pull off to the side of your Grave Guard, having to reform next turn and then charge a turn later? Or do they hold in place and reform - leaving you free to charge them or at least push their charge back another turn.

3) Hammers and Death Stars - some units are just bound to be big, expensive, hard-hitters. You pay a 250pts for 5 Blood Knights because they hit like a freight-train, they're worth it. Some armies have the ability to push this envelope so far that you end up with what the community calls "Death Stars". Death Stars usually cost a ton of points, and denying those points is as big a part of their strategy as killing stuff. You put a regiment on the table that just vaporizes whatever it fights, and your opponent can't seem to kill. The trouble only starts when your opponent brings a death-star of their own, or finds a way to just avoid your death star and wipe out the rest of your army.

4) Line Regiments, Anvils, and Tar Pits - everything else, but worth pointing out here, are units with deep ranks. If a regiment isn't mean to generate kills, and especially if they're not even sure they'll win combat - they should have lots of ranks, to get Steadfast. Anvils are regiments which might even be able to win combat, but are defined by being hard to kill. An Anvil can hold a regiment in place, keep their Combat Resolution close to zero, and bring enough ranks to break Steadfast. Swing a Hammer into whatever an Anvil is fighting (see what I did there?) and you can send an enemy packing. Zombies are not an Anvil - too many of them die. They're a great example of a TarPit though. Any regiment that doesn't necessarily win combat, but is either hard to kill (lots of wounds, armor, Regen, etc) or is hard to break (Stubborn, Unbreakable, or Steadfast), will make a good tar-pit. The point of these units is to find that enemy you don't want to fight (maybe an enemy death-star, or that "scary" Dragon Vampire) and make sure that it never does anything else in the game. It just spends the whole game killing Zombies, or Skaven Slaves, or whatever.
 

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Yep. There are usually 4 main roles for any Warhammer Army:

1) Support - this is your characters, like Wizards and the BSB. Some characters also give special rules to their units (a High Elf 'Annointed of Asuryan' gives his unit a Wardsave, for example). Some units can also fill this role, like the Corpse Cart. Anything that makes your other units better, or even enemy units worse (Bat Swarms). As long as the boost is worth the points you're spending, it's a good thing to include.

2) Chaff - cheap "throw-away" units. These have two jobs. First, they win the 'deployment' game - if your opponent is putting down their best units and you're still putting down 40pt regiments of Dire Wolves, then you can line up your own good units exactly where you want them. Never again will your Assassin be stranded on the opposite end of the board from his general! Chaff units also let you redirect units, or stall them. Say your enemy is lining up charge your Grave Guard with their best regiment. You sneak a regiment of Dire Wolves in between the two, at a slight angle. Now your enemy has to charge the dogs - sure, they're going to wipe out the Dire Wolves in one round, but now they have a choice: do they Overrun and get pull off to the side of your Grave Guard, having to reform next turn and then charge a turn later? Or do they hold in place and reform - leaving you free to charge them or at least push their charge back another turn.

3) Hammers and Death Stars - some units are just bound to be big, expensive, hard-hitters. You pay a 250pts for 5 Blood Knights because they hit like a freight-train, they're worth it. Some armies have the ability to push this envelope so far that you end up with what the community calls "Death Stars". Death Stars usually cost a ton of points, and denying those points is as big a part of their strategy as killing stuff. You put a regiment on the table that just vaporizes whatever it fights, and your opponent can't seem to kill. The trouble only starts when your opponent brings a death-star of their own, or finds a way to just avoid your death star and wipe out the rest of your army.

4) Line Regiments, Anvils, and Tar Pits - everything else, but worth pointing out here, are units with deep ranks. If a regiment isn't mean to generate kills, and especially if they're not even sure they'll win combat - they should have lots of ranks, to get Steadfast. Anvils are regiments which might even be able to win combat, but are defined by being hard to kill. An Anvil can hold a regiment in place, keep their Combat Resolution close to zero, and bring enough ranks to break Steadfast. Swing a Hammer into whatever an Anvil is fighting (see what I did there?) and you can send an enemy packing. Zombies are not an Anvil - too many of them die. They're a great example of a TarPit though. Any regiment that doesn't necessarily win combat, but is either hard to kill (lots of wounds, armor, Regen, etc) or is hard to break (Stubborn, Unbreakable, or Steadfast), will make a good tar-pit. The point of these units is to find that enemy you don't want to fight (maybe an enemy death-star, or that "scary" Dragon Vampire) and make sure that it never does anything else in the game. It just spends the whole game killing Zombies, or Skaven Slaves, or whatever.
That should be stickied somewhere. Definitely the basis for a tactica. (I'd give you rep for that Captain, if I hadn't recently so LO won't let me!)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yep! Slann are the best non-named Wizards in the game, and are even better than some of the named characters. One of the easiest ways to shut down a Slann, would be to play by the 25% character allowances rather than End Times 50%. He'd have to cut 140pts off that Slann. The best place to spend your Lord/Hero points, is on Casters. Most armies don't have a problem getting at least a Level4 into games at 1500pts. Games much smaller than that, and yes, you might want to allow up to 50% on Lords and Heroes, just because some armies have a hard time getting any wizards into a small enough game. But 1500pts? 25% is enough for your needs. Because yes - otherwise you're going to end up with stuff that is very off balance. The game and all army books were originally written for 25%. This means that certain things (like Dragons) were priced specifically to be unavailable in games below a certain size. Not just "this model is XXpts good" but also "this model would be entirely unfair in any game below YYpts".
Worth pointing out that the Necro list I posted, only needs about 40ish points cut out of the Heroes, and you're "vanilla legal".


Yes. If you have a magic weapon, you must use that magic weapon, and cannot switch.
Furthermore, any weapons that you buy as upgrades will work in the same way. For example, Chaos Warriors starting equipment is a Handweapon and Chaos Armor - but you can upgrade them to carry Halberds, Greatweapons, and Additional Handweapons. So, if you give them a Halberd, they are always going to use their Halberd in combat. If you give them Halberds and Greatweapons, then you can choose to switch between the Halberd or Greatweapon, but not your basic Handweapon.
Some units also have the option for Shields, which can cause confusion. If you have a Greatweapon and Shields, then can you choose to "use the shield in combat?" No. A Shield is not a Weapon - you have to use the 'Specialist Weapon'. You still get the Shield outside of combat though, which could be worth it.


Sometimes the editors will miss things - especially when items come from two different places, like the Scavenge Pile and Magic Items, or Magic Items and Vampiric Powers. It's usually a good idea to double-check your list with the book. I write all of my lists by hand - it's just basic arithmetic after all.
As far as not needing the magic? You can get away with it. If you're very fast, or Dwarfs.


Can't get Heavy Armor for the Champ
Probably just a misunderstanding. I'm not calling him a cheater, but he is a Skaven player... ;)


They do, but you pay for it. 10pts for a Champion in a regiment of 5pt Skeletons for example - you can just grab 2 more Skeletons. Remember that the cost for a Champion is an upgrade, so his total cost is 15pts (I have a feeling Skele champs are 8pts, if memory serves, but you get the point). What do you get? +1Attack? +1Ballistic? The easiest to refute is the +1 Ballistic. Say you've got 10 Skinks. You get 10 Shots, or you spend the points from the Champ on an extra model and get 11 shots:

9 BS3 shots = 4.5 hits
1 BS4 shot = .67 hits
Total Hits = 5.17 hits

11 BS3 shots = 5.5 hits

So is it worth it to buy a Champion for a regiment of missile weapons? Nope. Sure, you're not a pretty 5x5 square anymore, but you're probably only in 2 ranks. That's 6 front, 5 second. Still a full rank bonus and so on. The only time you might not do this, is if you're deployed in multiple ranks, say, 3 ranks of 5. Putting an extra model from front would give you ranks of 6, and you'd only have 4 models in that third rank (lose the rank bonus).

For combat, Champions can eat challenges or just be killed by targeted attacks. They're not as bad in a melee regiment, but similar to the Archers - if it doesn't mess up your Rank Bonus, the choice is between +1A, or +1A and +1W at least.
The best place for Champions are in units where you need to eat challenges for Characters. Champions are even a liability sometimes - for example, if you had a regiment of 4 Blood Knights, you couldn't refuse Champion. Put a Champion in that regiment and your opponent pulls him into a challenge, you lose more than 25% of your attacks. Yes, you'll probably evaporate the challenger in question and get overkill points, but if you had worked those out against the unit instead, you may have been able to reduce their rank bonus.
Champions are the first place that I go to when I need to cut points out for my army. 5 Champions at 10pts each? That's the Magic Items allowance on a Hero.


Yep. There are usually 4 main roles for any Warhammer Army:

1) Support - this is your characters, like Wizards and the BSB. Some characters also give special rules to their units (a High Elf 'Annointed of Asuryan' gives his unit a Wardsave, for example). Some units can also fill this role, like the Corpse Cart. Anything that makes your other units better, or even enemy units worse (Bat Swarms). As long as the boost is worth the points you're spending, it's a good thing to include.

2) Chaff - cheap "throw-away" units. These have two jobs. First, they win the 'deployment' game - if your opponent is putting down their best units and you're still putting down 40pt regiments of Dire Wolves, then you can line up your own good units exactly where you want them. Never again will your Assassin be stranded on the opposite end of the board from his general! Chaff units also let you redirect units, or stall them. Say your enemy is lining up charge your Grave Guard with their best regiment. You sneak a regiment of Dire Wolves in between the two, at a slight angle. Now your enemy has to charge the dogs - sure, they're going to wipe out the Dire Wolves in one round, but now they have a choice: do they Overrun and get pull off to the side of your Grave Guard, having to reform next turn and then charge a turn later? Or do they hold in place and reform - leaving you free to charge them or at least push their charge back another turn.

3) Hammers and Death Stars - some units are just bound to be big, expensive, hard-hitters. You pay a 250pts for 5 Blood Knights because they hit like a freight-train, they're worth it. Some armies have the ability to push this envelope so far that you end up with what the community calls "Death Stars". Death Stars usually cost a ton of points, and denying those points is as big a part of their strategy as killing stuff. You put a regiment on the table that just vaporizes whatever it fights, and your opponent can't seem to kill. The trouble only starts when your opponent brings a death-star of their own, or finds a way to just avoid your death star and wipe out the rest of your army.

4) Line Regiments, Anvils, and Tar Pits - everything else, but worth pointing out here, are units with deep ranks. If a regiment isn't mean to generate kills, and especially if they're not even sure they'll win combat - they should have lots of ranks, to get Steadfast. Anvils are regiments which might even be able to win combat, but are defined by being hard to kill. An Anvil can hold a regiment in place, keep their Combat Resolution close to zero, and bring enough ranks to break Steadfast. Swing a Hammer into whatever an Anvil is fighting (see what I did there?) and you can send an enemy packing. Zombies are not an Anvil - too many of them die. They're a great example of a TarPit though. Any regiment that doesn't necessarily win combat, but is either hard to kill (lots of wounds, armor, Regen, etc) or is hard to break (Stubborn, Unbreakable, or Steadfast), will make a good tar-pit. The point of these units is to find that enemy you don't want to fight (maybe an enemy death-star, or that "scary" Dragon Vampire) and make sure that it never does anything else in the game. It just spends the whole game killing Zombies, or Skaven Slaves, or whatever.
Awesome thank you so much for all your help i'm going with the Rasing the dead theme list for my Undead army and my friends have reviewed their lists and we are taking a closer look at the rulebook! Again, thank you so much for all your help!
 
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