Well, it looked like the Terminators worked. Was it just me misinterpreting or did he pass a bitchload of Target Priority tests when shooting at your Devastators? Were they behind or in front of the Tactical Squads?

Vindicators didn't do much. I told ye so.

You may want to consider Lysander in higher-points lists, along with another Terminator squad if you find you like them. Lysanderwing can be a lot of fun. "Oops, what's that? Turn 3? Here's thirty-one Terminators. Boosh."

 

Wow those termies are indestructable.The harlies rending (harlequin kiss) costs extra but expect on any eldar player if he uses them. The only thing I would consider for your list is a speeder, it is usefull for blocking the falcon's rear acces point meaning they can't assault you. Otherwise great report, very clear.

 

imo, the eldar player made a good lot of mistakes, mostly involving his shining spears. Good job on your part though for taking advantage of it!

 

Good job!

However the eldar player played his spears poorly. And you had incredible luck with your terminator saves, and that´s not going to last. So don´t start thinking theyre invulnerable. 16+32 saves from shuriken fire + 24 rending attacks isn´t going to happen again.. ever. But enjoy the moment and prepare for his revenge!

I´d swap the vindicators for a predator annihilator(only tank that can take its points back against eldar before blowing up) and another small dev squad with heavy bolters for shredding dire avengers until harlies emerge.

 

Yea poodle, Vindis didn't do much. I've revised my list for the next fight. Pretty much 2 units types never seem to do much, Tac Marines and Hvy Support. I think both are either too slow or too fragile to last long, especially if I have bad fire lanes or lose the first round initiative. Also, for some reason I thought Demolisher guns were Barrage which they arent so terrain really reduced my options on what I could shoot at. I will agree preds are probably my best bet.

My termies got so lucky it kinda spoiled the fight, but whatever. As my opponent pointed out he's had some decent luck in previous games and units that rely on 6's and 1's are "high variance" odds wise so stuff like this is going to happen. In defense of the Spears he basically made a slight miscalculation on distances in the beginning, and his strat of baiting my termies with the others when he split would likely have worked out had his Farseer succeeded in getting off his Guide and Doom.

 

Hi all, I was the Eldar player in this match. Just wanted to throw in a couple cents from my perspective.

The only factual distinction I would make with the battle report involves the Shining Spears. The first round they made their 24" move, but were still over 15" from any target. The dev squad and the nearest 7 man marine squad both fired, inflicting 2 casualties total. However, there was no assault in that round. At that point, my Spears were still to far to assault anything except the 7 man squad, but I was worried that they wouldn't survive another round of fire (they had done well to only take 2 casualties after the first round). So the Autarch split, fired on the 7 man squad and then assaulted them, killing 5.

The rest of the Spears moved 24" again, in front of the terminators. My goal was to use the Spears as cover (or, if you prefer, bait) to give the Harlies and the Autarch time to make a combined assault on the Terminators in a later round. I forgot that the Autarch would likely be stuck for a while (could only use Withdraw special ability while with the Exarch). In retrospect, it was a bad move with the spears, as it forced me to scramble into a decisive encounter. I got lucky that the Dire Avengers rolled well in the second round of fleeting, enabling them to get into position. However, I made the mistake of forcing my decisive encounter against Terminators - rolling one number out of six is a very high variance event. All bad luck aside, it taught me a valuable lesson in over-committing my forces early on.

In defense of the Vindicators: It is true they didn't do much, but that is because I feared them greatly and mapped my entire battle plan around avoiding them and destroying them early. In retrospect, I might have done better trying to out-maneuver them. From my perspective, however, they played a huge role in our match.

 

At that point, my Spears were still to far to assault anything except the 7 man squad, but I was worried that they wouldn't survive another round of fire (they had done well to only take 2 casualties after the first round). So the Autarch split, fired on the 7 man squad and then assaulted them, killing 5.

Ah that makes more sense because I remembered firing but shouldn't have been able to assault afterwards. Either way, good catch. Those 2 marines sure held out for quite awhile though. I always have one tac squad that comes away with honorable mention it seems

 

autarch can not move and fire reaper launcher as it is not mounted on the bike, but carried by him.

clearly the autarch and spears should be charging the termies (and wiping the floor with them), that would be far more effective than harleys charging them, so thing I would have gone with harleys as bait

But ultimatley however you slice it, he was increadibyl lucky with his saves, the amount of sirepower thrown at the termies should have had a far greater impact

 

autarch can not move and fire reaper launcher as it is not mounted on the bike, but carried by him.

You sure about that? Because I those autarchs with reaper launchers are a huge pain in the ass and I would love it if he couldn't use them and move.

 

Do you have a rulebook reference for that Cher? Looking at the entry for heavy weapons, and at the entry for shooting under jetbikes, both indicate that riders may move and fire heavy weapons freely, but neither makes any mention of whether the weapons should be mounted or held.


RW

 

It is an area of some contention by the semi powergamers, the rule book explicitly states "mounted on the bike" which is pretty incontravertable by RAW

The rules have not changes from last version of the game which expressed the whole thing far clearer, people still try and get away with it but it is reasonably clear (and has been argued to death on this and other sites

Tempest launcher armed autarchs on bikes can not move and shoot

 

Actually Cher, the only reference to a weapon "mounted on the bike" is in reference to Rapid Fire Weapons and their ability to shoot at max distance.

Also, where does it delineate where a weapon is mounted on a bike or the rider? There isn't really a differentiation from the bike and rider anymore.

 

well it quite clearly does in my rulebook and they do at the official games I have played/been to, the bolter rapid firing is an illustration,

 

thats strange, because on page 29 on my rulebook, under the heavy weapons entry it explictly states:


"Note: Vehicles, monstorus creatures, riders on bikes (including jetbikes), and certain other models are capable of moving and firing freely with heavy weapons thanks to their strength, powerful exoskeleton, internal power source, etc."

quoted directly from the rule book, which incidently states explictly that riders on jetbikes can, in fact, move and fire heavy weapons freely. If for some reason this excludes the Aurtarch, that would seem strange, do you have a rule that says that?

also on page 53 it states that bikes can fire rapid fire weapons, and heavy weapons if they move and still charge into CC in the same turn.

i can understand what your saying about bikes fireing and it being 'mounted', but it does in the previous entry state that RIDERS on bikes can fire. Furthermore it doesnt have an explicit explanation in the rapid fire section of the rules.

please explain to me how this is wrong, thanks.

 

thats strange, because on page 29 on my rulebook, under the heavy weapons entry it explictly states:


"Note: Vehicles, monstorus creatures, riders on bikes (including jetbikes), and certain other models are capable of moving and firing freely with heavy weapons thanks to their strength, powerful exoskeleton, internal power source, etc."

quoted directly from the rule book, which incidently states explictly that riders on jetbikes can, in fact, move and fire heavy weapons freely. If for some reason this excludes the Aurtarch, that would seem strange, do you have a rule that says that?

that is not in the bike section though so specifically read the bike section

also on page 53 it states that bikes can fire rapid fire weapons, and heavy weapons if they move and still charge into CC in the same turn.

i can understand what your saying about bikes fireing and it being 'mounted', but it does in the previous entry state that RIDERS on bikes can fire. Furthermore it doesnt have an explicit explanation in the rapid fire section of the rules.
the bikes section is where it explictly states "mounted mate

 

I don't know, but the idea of firing a multi-shot cannon with one arm whilst riding a super-fast jetbike seems a little iffy. I wouldn't allow it.

 

Oh... so we get to choose which rules we get to disallow now? Ok, I choose to disallow your tanks from moving and firing. It's pretty clear that riders can fire their weapons per the actual rules quote that sinisterp gave.

i can understand what your saying about bikes fireing and it being 'mounted', but it does in the previous entry state that RIDERS on bikes can fire. Furthermore it doesnt have an explicit explanation in the rapid fire section of the rules.
the bikes section is where it explictly states "mounted mate

Again, the only reference it gives to mounted weapons is for Rapid Fire weapons and their ability to shoot once out to maximum range. That's it.

Pg 29
"Note: Vehicles, monstorus creatures, riders on bikes (including jetbikes), and certain other models are capable of moving and firing freely with heavy weapons thanks to their strength, powerful exoskeleton, internal power source, etc."

Pg 53 (and 54) pt 1
"If rapid fire weapons are mounted on a bike, then they are allowed to fire once up to maximum range even if the bike moved."

Pg 53 pt 2
"In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into into close combat in the same turn."

Page 29 gives us a specific rule - nothing in the rules overrides it. In fact, it supports it.

 

An excellent battle-report.
I found the Terminators resistance to the literal fusillade of fire directed at them very cinematic
A spot of bad luck for the Eldar player though!

I look forward to fighting Eldar in the future, looks like a very dynamic army.

As for the rules discussion, although slightly off-topic.
Not being an eldar player I'm not 100% on the specific unit in question. But if I'd have to call it, I'd ask if:
1.) Can you upgrade the bike with a weapon independent of the rider? (As in, does it state "X unit can get this weapon" and then "Bike can be upgraded with Y weapon".)
2.) If there is no mention in the bike unit entry of it having a seperate "arm model" vs. "upgrade/mount on bike" then I'd have to rule the it only matters if the weapon is "on" the bike as opposed to being mounted.

Personally I'd find it cool to be able to use my Night Lord bikes to that effect, but I doubt that's the case.

 

about the bike and heavy weapons:

as this is a rules question that i might encounter regularly, i went ahead and called the GW customer service which also answers questions on rules.

He simply stated that the rules say that a rider can move and shoot heavy weapons, there is no rule anywhere that states otherwise. he says to 'read what the rule says, not what it doesnt say'

so for those of you who dont beleive me or disagree, i supposed that you should also call the customer service and speak with them.

 

You know I think he can move and fire,

"Riders on bikes (including jetbikes)...are capable of moving and freely fireing heavy weapons." - Pg 29

I think the most important word in that phrase is ON.

Hey, i'm not gona argue with this, I'm jus gona go convert me an autarch on a bike.

 

Well for all of us players who have played through several versions of the rules, like Cheredenine and I, the RAW seem like an oversight and a departure from GW's previously expressed interpretation and INTENT. So, this very much seems like a loophole, as it were.

Nevertheless, I'd have to say, the RAW have me there. It ain't fluffy, but it ain't against the rules, either.

An autaurch who takes both a ML (2 handed weapon) and a JB as wargear pretty much has his hands full using one or the other, IMO. Unless he mounts it on the JB in place of a shuriken cannon, for instance. Now when a bike is taken as wargear, upgrading the bike isn't possible rules-wise, but I could still envision a "special snazzy jetbike" just for the autarch that has the ML on it, while the Autarch has his hands free to steer or whatever. SO that kind of gets around the fluff problem a little.

Still, I think the intent of the rule is for Vypers and Attack bikes that have a dedicated second rider and a vehicle mounted heavy weapon to be able to fire on the move--NOT for a missile-launcher bearing rider on a 1-man bike to be able to fire on the move while driving the bike at the same time. That's just silly. But the rules are just too fuzy to disallow it.

 

I agree Grotstompa. In past editions there was a distinct difference.

That said, I'm all for the new way - I thoroughly disliked the old. Yes, it is fluffy for riders to have to pay attention and not fall off their bikes. That said, by having a distinction between the rider and the bike, there was an imbalance between differing armies. Regular Space Marine Bikes' upgrade weapons were carried by the biker and so suffered. Chaos Space Marine Bikes' upgrade weapons were on the bike and got the full advantage of such.

I think this merely removes a weird level of having to distinguish what parts belong to whom... on the same model - one that cannot be seperated for any reason.

 

How the heck do marines get leadership 10?

And there was no way your 2 man marines squad could have ld 10 too, because they were less than 50%.

 

They get 10 ld from the Master Commander, but they would have lost one for being under 50%.

 

Everyone speaks of the difficulty of shooting while riding and saying that you shouldn't be able to move and fire without losing concentration on your bike. I do not need to remind you, but the eldar are not imperial guard. The picture on p.54 on my maccrage rulebook shows an eldar rider wielding an axe. Past depictions of jetbikers have shown some wielding pistols in one hand, Shining spears carry great Laser lances and fire them off at close range while flying at breakneck speeds through difficult terrain, performing complex high-speed aerial manouvres with a single gesture, I have seen farseers with weapons in both hands piloting bikes by psychic control alone. And yet it is still doubted that an Autarch, who has practiced his art for decades, if not centuries, can pilot his bike with one hand and fire a heavy weapon with the other. Disputing rules is O.K, but when someone says that Eldar performing a feat that a human could not seems unlikely, there I draw the line. Read the top of my sig.

 

its good to see that termi armor works. Also nice to see the Imperium give the eldar a good kick in the pants

 

Um.. Can a Jetbike rider even use 2-handed weapons?

 

I just want to sy that I think it is funny that we Eldar can do it (or any biker for that matter) but hey, I called rulez Boyz as well and they agreed with being able to do it. He said that essentially imagine that he has an upgraded bike with a ML included in the armament and a button to shoot on his handle bars. He is the Autarch after all and having an upgraded jetbike isn't too far fetched.

Also, I felt a little happy when the termies armour actually worked, all too often they get worked. It was good to see them live through all that fire (as my other army is Blood Angels) I still miss 2nd edition Termie Armour (3+ on 2D6)

 

Termies worked and against Eldar of all things.

Not too bad.

I have not really used termies that often since second Ed, when four guardsmen with lasguns charge you and kill 3 termies it just ruins your day. ;?

 

Here's the deal with Bikes. They are Wargear with special rules. They are no longer actual vehicles like they were in 2nd edition. Back in second edition, you could shoot a bike, or shoot a rider. They were seperate. The bike would even keep going and crash if the rider died.

But this is 4th edition. The INTENT of 4th edition is not statistical and mechanical realism. The intent is streamlined battles where you skim over some details to keep gameplay moving.

Bikes, Jetpacks and Terminator Armor are all essentially the same concept. They modify the abilities of the basic model for whom you have bought them.

It is clearer when you look at the Space Marine Attack Bike. This is a model with 2 wounds, not a bike with a driver and gunner, even though they call them "2 space marine crew". Putting one wound on an attack bike does not kill the gunner. Similarly, a railgun will inflict instant death on both "riders". No one ever questions whether an attack bike can move and fire its heavy bolter, yet no rule outside the regular bike rules says anything on the matter.

Also, Sammel has a heavy plasma on his bike. But since the model shows it slung under the chin of his jetbike, no one questions his ability to move and fire it.