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ok guys i have 2 lists here that use very similar models, i've been playin 40k for a long time now and i don't ever get any better now i'm not sure if this has something to do with the lists that i chose and whether the models really work well together

ok here r my lists

Space marines

Chaplain with plasma pistol 115
Squad 1, 5 men with plasma cannon 95
Squad 2, 5 men with plasma cannon 95
Squad 3, 5 men with plasma cannon 95
Devastators, 7 men 4 multimeltas 185
Dreadnaught, 105
Tornado, 80
Attack bike squad, multimeltas 130
Landraider crusader, 265
Terminator assault squad, furious charge 215
Callidus assassin 120
Total 1500

Black templars

Emperor’s Champion, uphold the honour of the emperor 100
Chaplain, terminator armour, storm bolter, holy orb of Antioch 150
Squad 1, 5 men with plasma cannon 100
Squad 2, 5 men with plasma cannon 100
Squad 3, 5 men with plasma cannon 100
Dreadnaught, smoke launchers 108
Tornado, smoke launchers 83
Attack bike squad, multimeltas 130
Landraider crusader, blessed hull smoke launchers 293
Terminator assault squad, furious charge 215
Callidus assassin 120
Total 1499

both the chaplains are the 3 wound versions and the tornado is the one with the heavy bolter and assualt cannon
 

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I would drop the plasma cannons as the new template rules really handicap them. Take lascannons or missile launchers instead.

Also, drop the meltas on the Dev squad and replace with missile launchers. Much more effective and longer range for a stand and shoot squad. I know I'd love face an all melta Dev squad as it would be pretty easy to keep my tanks out of 24" range.

Even number squads are better than odd ie 6 or 8 man squads instead of 5 or 7 for scoring and moral.

Attack bikes rock when attached to bike squads, however, they are not as effective by themselves as they cannot withstand being shot. Taking a loss is very expensive and takes out 1/2 or 1/3 of your squad per loss.

Not sure if vanilla smurfs can take the LRC or not.

Also, a drop pod for the Dread would make it alot more survivable.


Both lists have illegal selections:

Lord Grimlock is right, the assasins are illegal without an inquisitor.

The tornado cannot have smoke as an upgrade.

Hope this helps.
 

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A chaplain is not really the most effective choice for a HQin your lists jimmus. A force commander with the ld bonus or a libarian with psyhic powers would work alot better with the shooting theme of the lists. also black templars are really at their best when ripping the enemy apart close up. plasma cannons do not really add to this. the largest problem i have with both lists however is that they are very short on numbers. more tactical marines really are needed before you get the flashy stuff. also agree with everything said before esp. the multimelta devasators. pointless unless they have infiltrate. get rid.
 
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