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the mandrake
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
My list for an upcoming tournament, I'm trying to be as filthy as possible.

Dracon - 110
Shadow Field, Punisher+Helm, Drugs

Dracite(retinue) - 251
Agoniser, Drugs.
Wychesx6, Succubus, Agoniser, Raider

'Lanceboats x 3' - 315
5 warriors, DL, raider

'Gunboats x 2' - 252
7 warriors, SC, Blaster, Raider

'Gunboat' - 118
6warriors, SC, Blaster, Raider

Wyches x 7 - 179
Weapons, Raider, Succubus, Agoniser, Goblet of Spite

Wyches x 7 - 174
Weapons, Raider, Succubus, Agoniser

Ravager - 120
3 Disintegrators

Ravager - 120
3 Disintegrators

Ravager - 105

15 lances, 6 disintegrators, 12 vehicles and about 400 KPs.

Provided I can count that should be 1744 points, 6 to spare for grenades on something or a horrorfex. I was originally going to put the Dracon in with some Wyches but I might have him riding in a gunboat and have him charge out on his own instead (and then likely die).

C+C welcome and appreciated as always
 

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First things first: A question. Is this for a specific tournament or just a list you are making in case there is a tournament? If you are planning on going to a specific tournament then how are they going to do missions? Random or pre-arranged? If pre-arranged then what are the missions? This can affect list design.

Overall the list looks pretty good, mostly its a matter of really minor tweaks and things that aren't bad but should be kept in mind:

First of all, for 1750pts, that is a TON of kill points. Using the official KP system, you have 23 kill points. You have to keep in mind that retinues and raiders count for kill points as well. Most lists will between 2/3rds to 3/4 as many kill points. In games where you are a lot better then your opponent this isn't an issue but if you are against a skilled opponent (or just one who is a bad match for you) then both sides are likely to take a lot of casualties and you'll lose simply because of that difference. Also, since all your units are rather small in size, that makes them easier to kill off. I'd suggest doing some condensing down but it isn't a HUGE problem since only 1/3rd of missions are kill point based usually.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of Goblet of Spite. It seems like a waste of points generally. Personally I'd drop it and spend the points on something else. Lastly, I'd suggest giving your Dracite a Hellmask since you didn't give her a Shadow Field. Also, I'd suggest trying to get plasma grenades on as many of the wych units as is reasonably possible. Wyches loose a lot of their strength if they don't swing first.
 

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the mandrake
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
This was written for a specific tournament within my gaming group. The missions are going to be random (with a 1/6 chance of annihilation iirc) including random special rules in each game.

I'm expecting alot of small elite armies to be played so hopefully my enormous amount of KP will be alleviated by me tabling my opponent. I was considering dropping something to bulk out my warrior squads and possibly add night shields to my ravagers and lanceboats.

The goblet: I figured it wouldn't hurt seeing as its only 5 points. I'm expecting a few CSM armies so the more damage I can do to a Lashprince while I tarpit it the better.

As for the Hell Mask, I was hoping the retinue would protect my dracite for the mojority of the game. I'll try to find room for it though. The unit really only exists to be thrown at the most nasty cc unit the enemy has to (hopefully) kill it and I fully expect them to be killed in a subsequent shooting phase.

Thanks for the reply.
 

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the mandrake
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I ended up second out of seven in a round-robin style tournament, which I was more than happy with. The force made a mockery of CSM (Wyches killed 4 Daemon Princes in 2 games, tabled the opponent in 4 turns) and fared well against IG, Eldar and Wolves (Where woeful rolling led to a draw. 15 lances, one glance?? Come on!). The Ork player took first place, however had the terrain been less dense around the objective I most likely would have won. Tau annihilated me.

Things I noticed:
The Goblet of Spite, which I ended up running with the wych-lord squad, made for an incredibly killy squad for a budget price. I love this unit and threw it at the enemy's strongest unit.

Moving most of the army flat out on the first turn is a risk but give you a chance to redeploy with minimal casualties.

Keeping a wych squad in reserve when fighting deep-strikers is great, especially in spearhead deployment where they can touch most of the battlefield.

Wyches in general are insane. I went off them for a while when 5th first arrived due to a few bad experiences with leadership and no consolidation. They were the stars of my tourney however and i'll never leave home without at least 2 units from now on.

Raiders are squishy. Warriors aren't any better. However, when you take 6 raider squads, there always seems to be something left to swoop onto an objective on the last turn. Thats 12 targets the enemy needs to shoot down.

The shadowfield lone-Dracon was next to useless. She killed a squad of Kroot and Firewarriors in one game and eviscerated a Rune Priest in another. Every other game she charged, killed a few, and died. I doubt I would run her like that again.

3-lance Ravagers are awesome.

Anyway, I loved the look on my opponent's face when I seemed to randomly place 12 tanks on the board at the start of each game.
Cheers, db.
 

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I've been wondering about this for a few days and I can't figure it out so I'm just going to ask here...how can you use both a drachite and a dracon in the same list? Aren't Wych Lords and Dark Eldar lords mutually exclusive? Forgive me if this is a stupid question but it's been a few years, did I miss a codex update or something?
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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You kind of summed my experiences as well.

The force made a mockery of CSM
I love marine type units that think they can got toe-to-toe with us, it makes it easier to get into assault faster.

The Goblet of Spite, which I ended up running with the wych-lord squad, made for an incredibly killy squad for a budget price. I love this unit and threw it at the enemy's strongest unit.
There is no downside to the Goblet - makes every list now. I also run my Archite with this squad but not because I need it for the Archite but rather this unit can tackle anything.

Moving most of the army flat out on the first turn is a risk but give you a chance to redeploy with minimal casualties.
Nightshields do ease the risk some knowing that any raider might be saved by it.

Keeping a wych squad in reserve when fighting deep-strikers is great, especially in spearhead deployment where they can touch most of the battlefield.
Most players still don't understand that in Spearhead your reserves can come in anywhere along your 72" board edge - this often catches the opponent off guard.

Wyches in general are insane. I went off them for a while when 5th first arrived due to a few bad experiences with leadership and no consolidation.
I did too, I lost miserably using 4th edition lists and 4th edition tactics - I even thought that Wych Cult was dead (quite the opposite really!).

Raiders are squishy. Warriors aren't any better. However, when you take 6 raider squads, there always seems to be something left to swoop onto an objective on the last turn. Thats 12 targets the enemy needs to shoot down.
Yes! Foot squads are dead in my eyes. Mechanized is the way to go and the raider is a huge tool to win games with.

The shadowfield lone-Dracon was next to useless. She killed a squad of Kroot and Firewarriors in one game and eviscerated a Rune Priest in another. Every other game she charged, killed a few, and died. I doubt I would run her like that again.
The Dracon does look a little lost in your list - I would have placed it in with the Dracite and wyches but that is about it. The only time I take a Dracon is if I want to use incubi and that is very rare with me.

If you were looking for a "filthy" list I would have just get a bunch of Haemonculi (while keeping the Dracite) and put one Haemy in each raider squad. This would have freed up the shadowfield for the Dracite.

3-lance Ravagers are awesome.
Bingo! 3 lance ravagers are usually my MVP's. I still run one ravager with 3 dissys but I usually run 2 ravs with 3 lances (all with nightshields).

I seemed to randomly place 12 tanks on the board at the start of each game.
Cheers, db.
I count 9 skimmers - did you alter the list? But yah, when you got 9 skimmers on the table they tend to "freak"!

At 1750 I play a wych cult list with 6 troop choices and an Archite (no 2nd HQ). Once you embrace being completely mechanized you might as well just be aggressive with the Raider Rush strategy and go straight at the opponent. I too use reserves but only for one or two units max.

Have you ever thought of going Wych Cult?
 

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the mandrake
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
If you were looking for a "filthy" list I would have just get a bunch of Haemonculi (while keeping the Dracite) and put one Haemy in each raider squad. This would have freed up the shadowfield for the Dracite.
I still can't get my head around Haemonculi. I have tried them a few times now and they never seem to get close to making their points back. I put them on raiders armed with Splinter Cannons (and Shredders if I have the points) but the destructor only ever kills one or two models a turn, if that. Am I doing something wrong? I do tend to roll horribly (15 lances fired, 3 hits, no glances/penetrates, two turns in a row. This is fairly common)

Bingo! 3 lance ravagers are usually my MVP's. I still run one ravager with 3 dissys but I usually run 2 ravs with 3 lances (all with nightshields).
I have toyed with the idea of running all of my ravagers with 3 lances and spreading dissies over some of my raiders instead to reduce the cost of my ravagers (usually primary targets of my opponents) and prevent wound allocation sillyness. What do you think?

I count 9 skimmers - did you alter the list? But yah, when you got 9 skimmers on the table they tend to "freak"!
6 for warriors, 2 for wyches, 1 for Dracite and 3 ravagers. It was certainly a chore to deploy them:D.

At 1750 I play a wych cult list with 6 troop choices and an Archite (no 2nd HQ). Once you embrace being completely mechanized you might as well just be aggressive with the Raider Rush strategy and go straight at the opponent. I too use reserves but only for one or two units max.

Have you ever thought of going Wych Cult?
After playing this list, I am definately considering playing a Wych Cult for the first time in years. Wyches really pulled their weight, despite the shooting-orientation of everything else in the army.

Thanks for the reply.
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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I still can't get my head around Haemonculi. Am I doing something wrong?
Naw, regular Haemonculi tend to be a disposable, 1-time fire support unit that dies readily. The only trick with them is to get that one juicy template shot and kill as much as you can.

One experiment I am trying and seems to work somewhat is to take 4 Haemys in a squad of 6 grots and give the Haemys combat drugs. The idea is to put as many wounds on the target and let them make the armor saves. Of course this a huge investment in points but if you figure you get 20 poison blade attacks with re-roll to hit (drugs for the +1 A and the re-roll) you overcome your target (as long as the target has a small number count).

I have toyed with the idea of running all of my ravagers with 3 lances and spreading dissies over some of my raiders instead to reduce the cost of my ravagers (usually primary targets of my opponents) and prevent wound allocation sillyness. What do you think?
I do not like the idea but that is not to say it wouldn't work. I prefer Horrorfex's on my raiders and if I keep them and add dissys then the two weapons compete with each other. As far as I am concerned, what isn't a good target for a lance is good for the horrorfex. Sure, you lose the horrorfex if you are facing fearless units so I chose a different target that is armored and just let the wyches have them.

6 for warriors, 2 for wyches, 1 for Dracite and 3 ravagers. It was certainly a chore to deploy them:D.
Tell me about it - deployment is the longest part of the game!

I am definately considering playing a Wych Cult for the first time in years.
I thought Wych Cult at first was dead and didn't use them for several months but as my Kabal lists got better with the new rules and I suddenly know what I needed to win then I was ready for trying wych cult. It all came down to shrugging off 4th edition ideas, tactics and lists and start embracing 5th edition - it wasn't as easy a transfer as I had thought. Wych Cult lists are easier for me now but I think that using "Raider Rush" strategy and nightshields also contributed the over all effect (and realizing that blasters in wych squads are extremely versatile and makes them more 3 dimensional than Raider Squads for less points).

Just my observations - milage may vary.
 
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the mandrake
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Naw, regular Haemonculi tend to be a disposable, 1-time fire support unit that dies readily. The only trick with them is to get that one juicy template shot and kill as much as you can.
This is the problem, I never seem to kill enough with the template to make a dent in the haemy's point cost. I'll try it again though, my gunboats really lacked in the firepower department.

One experiment I am trying and seems to work somewhat is to take 4 Haemys in a squad of 6 grots and give the Haemys combat drugs. The idea is to put as many wounds on the target and let them make the armor saves. Of course this a huge investment in points but if you figure you get 20 poison blade attacks with re-roll to hit (drugs for the +1 A and the re-roll) you overcome your target (as long as the target has a small number count).
I definitely try to avoid high-point kill units and spread my points out as much as possible. This does sound interesting and VERY unorthodox, let me know how it goes if you don't mind:)

I thought Wych Cult at first was dead and didn't use them for several months but as my Kabal lists got better with the new rules and I suddenly know what I needed to win then I was ready for trying wych cult. It all came down to shrugging off 4th edition ideas, tactics and lists and start embracing 5th edition - it wasn't as easy a transfer as I had thought. Wych Cult lists are easier for me now but I think that using "Raider Rush" strategy and nightshields also contributed the over all effect (and realizing that blasters in wych squads are extremely versatile and makes them more 3 dimensional than Raider Squads for less points).
Do you get much use out of your blasters in wych squads? I have them fleeting a great deal of the time, or do you tend to fire them from their transports? (although their pistols caused 2 wounds in 2 rounds of shooting against Daemon Princes the other week, absolutely epic:D)

Hmm...drop the lanceboats and keep it simple and run 3x 10x warriors with 2 dark lances for 300 pts,more troops,saves points and still a static unit.
I used to run sniper squads, i tried lanceboats and for 5 points more i find them supremely better. With all the outflank, infiltrate and deep strike out there, i find static units to be a liability. I tend to go for the enemies objectives and turbo-boost back to mine on the last turn rather than sit on my own so snipers really don't fit with my play style either. You can also maneuver lance boats to avoid those pesky cover saves and can still get a single DL shot off.
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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I would probably skip the idea of Haemonculi in your list then – I suppose the question to ask about your 2nd HQ is if you really need that one model (the Dracite) or can you use the points for something else. In my Wych Cult lists I have dropped the 2nd HQ and found that I really do not miss it – not until about 2k in points do I start considering one.

As for the Drug Crazed Haemonculus Coven experiment – it’s so different that I find it fun to play but that is it, just fun to play (so far).

I do love blasters in wych squads – they’re a cheap upgrade that gives them some teeth so they can produce in all phases of the game. Their priority is still is to get into close combat and I will admit that you may not get a chance to use all of them but their presence latter in the game has proven invaluable. Maybe it’s a Wych Cult thing because I run 5 to 6 squads of them and end up with 10 to 12 blasters all over the board. Sure, some of them will never get a chance to shoot them but the ones that do survive have provided me some flexibility later when something needs to die quickly (like that empty transport, walker or HQ unit). I even have kept them on the raider and just use them as a mini-ravager when I needed to assist the ravagers in popping armor or MC’s. Most of the time however I am looking to fire them just before a charge and killing marines with blasters is easier to do than trying to slap them to death.

I can list all the times the blasters came in handy and helped me either win a game or snatch a ‘draw’ instead of a loss but I do not think many people will believe. Try to think of it this way – you are already putting a good investment into the wyches inside your Kabal list so why not make them as flexible as possible for a cheap price so they can handle anything your Warriors and Raider Squads can’t?
 
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