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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys first post on here I need advice on my 1850 tournament list i have an event coming up in 4 weeks and I intend to win the thing. I dont play for fluff however lol

if i have posted anythingwrong etc please let me know

Ive had 9 games with this list so far and am in 2 minds bout the vengeance but adds some serious long range. Faced csm, ig, nids, marines, dark angels,


Can I get some feed back from tournament players as to the suitability of the list. The list is really long range, fast and good psychic wise. Gettng to objectives isnt a problem,






HQ total 295
Farseer x2 both on jet bikes, both with runes of warding.and spears
One has the uldaorethi long rifle the other the spirit stone of antha'lan


Troops total 882


4 wave serpants with shuriken cannan and scatter lasers with 5 dire avengers in each


2 squads of 3 windrider jet bikes


Heavy total 490


2 fire prisms


1 wrath knight


fortification total 170
vengeance weapons battery. 2 battle cannons


this leaves 8pts


total 1842-1850
 

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Fire prisms are bad, I'd trade both of those for a wraith knight. First farseer (with long rifle) is bad as well, drop it, and give the spirit stone farseer the mantle of the laughing god.

I'm not sure what I think about battle cannons as batteries, requiring them to always target the closest enemy unit is a pain, especially if you face a lot of flyers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
is it worth still running 2 farseers? just dropping the rifle? drop fortifivations for what tho? warp spiders seem solid?
 

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What if I told you that by sacraficing objective secured, and counter attack, that you could upgrade your dire avengers from scout armor equivilent +4, to power armor equivilent +3, equip each one with a melta bomb and a fusion gun for only 9 points per model. well you can, they are caled fire dragons, and you can have 3 units of them in your wave serpents, if you can shave 135 points off of your army, and perhaps dip your dire avengers in some orange paint :)
 

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Fire Prisms are almost useless and don't have any real damage output. Sniper rifles are the worst weapon the Eldar have. I would drop all of them. Solid Choices would be as acprince suggested and take Fire Dragons in the Wave Serpents. For shooting I suggest taking War Walkers as dual Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser & Brightlance/Starcannon (2 of these cost the same as 1 Fire Prism highly increasing your shooting power). Warp Spiders are also very good.

I am curious if the fortifications are bringing you anything great. It does allow you to place some of your cover, but Eldar is a great army and has been winning consistently without using anything from outside their army list.
 

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I am curious if the fortifications are bringing you anything great. It does allow you to place some of your cover, but Eldar is a great army and has been winning consistently without using anything from outside their army list.
Not so much winning lately, people have figured out how to beat serpent spam. Eldar lists need to adjust and I think stronghold might be the way to do it. The only Eldar list in the top 10 of LVO included a sky shield landing pad for its Lynx, and he got tabled in the semi-finals I believe it was. The fact that the buildings can hold objectives and are AV 14 means they're at least worth considering.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'v changed it all around now lol

running

Farseer spear. Runes of witness. Jetbike. Spirting stone.
and concentrating on summoning

3 x5 dire avenger in serpants with scatter/shuriken.
1x5 fire dragons in a serpant.
1x3 bikes.

1 X wk with scatter laser suncannon and scatters hheld
2x w k heavywcannons
 

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Fire Prism

I wouldn't write the Fire Prism off as completely useless. for 125 points you get a fast skimmer that can toss marine murdering pie plates across the table. the prism cannon has a 60 inch range, and the option to throw a marine killing pie plate S5 ap3, a terminator killing S7 ap2 blast, or a S9 ap1 lance,which is my least favorite option. this can be one of temost deadly items in the eldar arsenal, use its strengths. if you are going to use tanks, avoid all the drop pod full of melta cheese, bubble wrap your tanks in troops, or atleast buy a 50 point aegis defense line that you can break up into 4 seperate L shaped walls to protect your tanks from having melta droped on them first turn with no cover in melta range. you can measure in 7th eddition use it, they cannot deploy within 1 inch of your models
 

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I wouldn't write the Fire Prism off as completely useless. for 125 points you get a fast skimmer that can toss marine murdering pie plates across the table. the prism cannon has a 60 inch range, and the option to throw a marine killing pie plate S5 ap3, a terminator killing S7 ap2 blast, or a S9 ap1 lance,which is my least favorite option. this can be one of temost deadly items in the eldar arsenal, use its strengths. if you are going to use tanks, avoid all the drop pod full of melta cheese, bubble wrap your tanks in troops, or atleast buy a 50 point aegis defense line that you can break up into 4 seperate L shaped walls to protect your tanks from having melta droped on them first turn with no cover in melta range. you can measure in 7th eddition use it, they cannot deploy within 1 inch of your models
You're paying 125 for 1 gun on a serpent chasis. Additionally, Eldar do not typically have a hard time killing infantry so the pie plate isn't as important.
 

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I wouldn't write the Fire Prism off as completely useless. For 125 points you get a fast skimmer that can toss marine murdering pie plates across the table.
I'm afraid that I have completely written it off after having run the math for it and play-tested using War Walkers vs. Fire Prisms against the same army. I took 3 Fire Prisms with Shuriken Cannon option for one fight, and 6 War Walkers with Scatter Laser and Starcannon on the other (for almost the same number of points). My friend played the same White Scars bike army each time. I was also running two DA Wave Serpents and a Squad of Warp Spiders with an Autarch.

My results were:
First battle with War Walkers I wiped the board of all but his Librarian on bike by my turn 2.
Second battle with Fire Prisms, I conceded the game to him after only killing 2-3 bikes by the end of turn 2, at which point he was able to assault my vehicles and take them out.

Pretty huge difference...
 

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the war walkers are not a bad unit, they do have thier own weakenesses. open toped with armor 10 and 2hp they can be leaf blown off the table pretty quickly even with a 5++ save. they are one of the few vehicles in 40k that a squad of tactical marines can glance to death with just bolters. the 36 inch range of the weapons, is another disadvantage, somewhat reduced by scout. the weapons str6 only 2 of which are ap2, making them struggle to take out terminators, and no chance to take out armor 13, and 14 vehicles. the fire prism dosen't shine as bright against armies that close quickly, and assault. the fire prism would look alot better where it can use is assets manuverability, versitility, and decent armor. I wouldn't throw your 420 points of war walkers against my 270 points in perdators, and call war walkers horrabad because they got toasted, which they would :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I use to run the war walkers in 6th with a doom guide farseer and it was unit dead everytime in targeted something. But when7th came along I dropped the tactic.

My list as stands.

Summoning seer. Jb runes of witness. Spirit stone.

3 squads of dire avengers in sserpent . Shuri scatter and holo field

1 squad of fire dragons In a sserpent as above

1 squad of 3 jbs

3 wraith knights one with scatter sun cannon load out 2 withbasic


Opinions?

I could drop the holo fieldsand save 60pts giving another squad of bike.
 

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You still get more killd terminators from the scatterlaser/starcannon warwalkers then the fire prism. Also as if you jinx with the fire prism its useless. As for av 13-14. Thats what brightlance warwalkers, fire dragons, wraith guards and swooping hawks are for. The fire prism have not that highe chans to do that mutch with its one shot, for 125 pts. Also I dont lose my war walkers that ofthen, I just hide them behind my wave serpent with fire dragons.

The knight is also a better option then fire prism.

Edit: warp spiders Gene to kill preditord quite well... For got about them.
 

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the war walkers are not a bad unit, they do have thier own weakenesses. open toped with armor 10 and 2hp they can be leaf blown off the table pretty quickly even with a 5++ save. they are one of the few vehicles in 40k that a squad of tactical marines can glance to death with just bolters. the 36 inch range of the weapons, is another disadvantage, somewhat reduced by scout. the weapons str6 only 2 of which are ap2, making them struggle to take out terminators, and no chance to take out armor 13, and 14 vehicles. the fire prism dosen't shine as bright against armies that close quickly, and assault. the fire prism would look alot better where it can use is assets manuverability, versitility, and decent armor. I wouldn't throw your 420 points of war walkers against my 270 points in perdators, and call war walkers horrabad because they got toasted, which they would :)
I suggest you go read the math threads to see the difference between warwalkers and fire prisms.
 

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I use to run the war walkers in 6th with a doom guide farseer and it was unit dead everytime in targeted something. But when7th came along I dropped the tactic.

My list as stands.

Summoning seer. Jb runes of witness. Spirit stone.

3 squads of dire avengers in sserpent . Shuri scatter and holo field

1 squad of fire dragons In a sserpent as above

1 squad of 3 jbs

3 wraith knights one with scatter sun cannon load out 2 withbasic


Opinions?

I could drop the holo fieldsand save 60pts giving another squad of bike.
Start your own thread, don't try to hijack someone elses.
 

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ShadowcatX

I have looked over the statistics posted by mmarker1900
thank you, for doing all that mathammering by the way.

The fireprism is less liely to take hit from all but 3 of the 10 sources listed. They tied against strength 3 weapons which war walkers and fire prisms are both immune, and took .5 more wounds from melta, and 1.5 from grav weapons.

the problem i see is not the math, it is with some of the assumptions made, and how they don't match up with my experiences, and for that matter many of the battle reports that i have watched in my years of playing the game. there was a comment made that basicly said if more then 3 marines can be targeted by a blast weapon, then your opponent is inferior. not only does this assume that everyone is marching arroud the battle feild in a perfect congo line, it ascerts that this formation is superior to others. it has been my experiance that I average between 3-5 on a blast marker, the most common being 4 targets covered, and somewhere in the range of 7-12 with a large blast, averaging around 9. this goes down dramaticly with bikes, and up dramaticly with horde armies orcs, guard, nids, dark eldar, demons, and many times tau. the current numbers probably match up best with small 5 man units terminators, or perhaps 5 man marine units, but do what i belive is a great injustice to the damage potential of blast to some extent, and large blasts to a large extent. i would be interested to know how the math would look at 4, and 9 targets covered for the blast weapons.
 

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the problem i see is not the math, it is with some of the assumptions made, and how they don't match up with my experiences, and for that matter many of the battle reports that i have watched in my years of playing the game. there was a comment made that basicly said if more then 3 marines can be targeted by a blast weapon, then your opponent is inferior. not only does this assume that everyone is marching arroud the battle feild in a perfect congo line, it ascerts that this formation is superior to others.
So it is your assertion that against blast and large blast weapons the best formation for marching across the board is bunched up in big groups?
 

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I am not saying that marching in big groups is a good tactic to minimize damage from blast weapons. I am saying that there are many conciderations to take into account on the battle field. you want to spread out your models so that direct hit blasts won't wipe out your units, but at the same time, you want to take advantage of cover, and avoid dangerous, impassable, and even difficult terrain when possible. There will be times when forming a congo line will leave you venerable to the enemy blowing three units out of that congo line breaking unit coherency, forcing you to move in the opposite direction you were moving, or worse yet off an objective, just to reestablish coherency. if you get into close combat with a group of shining spears, and they hit and run just before your turn, the enemy often ends up in a nice tight cluster, the same thing happens if they fall back, or win CC and roll poorly on the consolidation role, perhaps they don't even get to consolidate as they attacked a vehicle.
 

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I have a hard time believe that you hit 7-12 models on averages, are you counting in the times you scatter of and hit 0 or 1 model? There is still 2/3 chance to scatter. With BS 4 that is average 3" scatter. 3" scatter dose not hit the model you aim for. On average you scatter a diameter of 11". So to hit 9 models with 3" scatter (assuming you cover 9 models before the shot) the unit has to be about 45-50 models. If the unit is 10 models and 3" scatter you should hit 1-2 models. So 3 models cover on average is not far from the truth. Still it might be 3-4 with large blast, but probably not more. If you dont shod at 60 model unit that is tight together all the time and can see the model in the centre.

Hope this makes any sense.

oh. and thats on 25mm bases, even less on the new 32
 

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you can debate the possibility of finding 19 targets gathered together to place a large blast over but for this example, we will assume this number is greater then 3, which in itself proves my point in questioning the math. BS4 gives you a 44.444 chance to score a direct hit covering 100% of the target area, there is a 18.518% chance that you will miss the target area entirely, and a 37.036% chance you will hit part of the target area hitting on average 54.9% of the targets. this doesn't factor in the chance to hit other enemy units close to the target area, and assumes that you don't have any of your own units in range when you fire, that could become a liability the direct hit is both direct hit sides of the scatter die, and rolls of 2,3, and 4, as the subtracted BS makes them additional direct hits.
 
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