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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay guys, a couple things came up in a game last night and I wanted to clarify:

1) The rulebook says that attacks against units with mixed WS are resolved against the majority WS, and that if no majority exists use the highest of the models engaged. Well, as a BT player, I had 7 initiates, 7 neophytes, and the emperor's champion in combat against a ton of kroot. In this case, there is no majority because I have equal amounts of ws 4 and 3 (initiates and neophytes, respectively). Normally, you would use ws 4 and be done with it. However, I also had an Emperor's champion in the combat, and HE is WS 6. Can I use his WS to defend agianst attacks? Or does "highest of models engaged" only count as the highest of the two WS that are tied?

2) Can Righteous Zeal moves be taken more than once in a shooting phase if more than one unit shoots at the same squad? I was positive on this but my opponent was less sure (of course, hehe). When I looked it up, it says that IF I take a casualty I MUST take a morale test, instead of when I take 25% casualties. Then further down, it says that when a BT infantry unit passes a morale test, they move d6", and that this move is "identical to a consolidate move..."

My opponent argued that because of the "instead of 25%" part I should take one test only, at the end of the phase. I countered by saying that the "identical to consolidate move" part argued for taking a test at the end of each "combat," as that is when consolidate moves are taken, rather than the end of your assault phase. Also, it says IF you take a casualty, take a morale test. Once you pass this morale test, it should follow that you move immediately. It seemed clear as day to me, but guidance is appreciated.
 

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this would have to be rules as intended question, that you would use the ws 4. though rules as written seem to favor the WS7 it is hard to justify saying that since i have a tie i will use the one model that is not part of the tie.

my understanding of the BT rules is that yes, they get a morale test for each squad or unit that inflicts a wound, meaning they will can move multiple times. the morale test is not to see if you break, it is to see if you move. the codex rules supercede the BRB for that army. they only get to move one time per unit that damages them, (i.e. if unit a shoots them and causes 2 casulaties you only take one morale test, and only move d6)
 

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Scourge Lord
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1) You should use the highest of the WSs that are both in equal majority. It just wouldn't seem right to use the one guy with WS 6 for the whole squad.

2) Righteous Zeal is tested just like morale checks for 25% casualties, only you do it for even one casualty and you get the free move when you pass. So what that means for the timing is that you wait until the end of the shooting phase. Have you taken any casualties? If so, take one test and either fall back or consolidate up to D6" depending on the result.

As a note, the consolidation aspect of the move is to describe it as not affected by difficult terrain. Such moves are taken in several situations (running, slow & purposeful, regrouping, as well as after assault wins), so they are not necessarily after every bit of combat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Krovin, are you sure about the righteous zeal thing? I understand that argument, but it doesn't say anywhere in the description of the rule that it is the same as a normal morale test for shooting; in fact it sort of separates it from that morale test by saying it is taken as opposed to the other. The way I have been playing it for a long time is 1 test per unit shooting and causing a casualty, and then if these together equal 25% or more at the end of a shooting phase I then take an actual fall back test, as that is part of the BRB.

LN, I guess my rules on ICs are a little rusty then. Even so, the possiblity still exists for this to happen in the case of HIgh Marshal Helbrecht, who can take a command squad with both normal marines and neophytes. He ceases to be an IC when taking a retinue, so would you be able to use his ws instead of marine or scout ws if you had the same amount of them?
 

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Whit Helbrecht you would use his WS since he is not counted as an IC in a retuine. In the exampel you had in the start you would use WS 4 for them, since it is the higest WS and there exists no majority. The emperors champion can not use his WS to help them, since in combat he counts as a seperate unit.
 

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LO's Shadow Captain
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LN, I guess my rules on ICs are a little rusty then. Even so, the possiblity still exists for this to happen in the case of HIgh Marshal Helbrecht, who can take a command squad with both normal marines and neophytes. He ceases to be an IC when taking a retinue, so would you be able to use his ws instead of marine or scout ws if you had the same amount of them?
I don't have a BT codex anymore, so I can't check, but I just wanted to be sure he actually has a RETINUE. Wording is usually very picky with this, and it has to be blatantly clear that he's got a retinue for it to actually count as a retinue.



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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't have a BT codex anymore, so I can't check, but I just wanted to be sure he actually has a RETINUE. Wording is usually very picky with this, and it has to be blatantly clear that he's got a retinue for it to actually count as a retinue.
The entry itself is actually titled "Retinue," which argues rather strongly in the affirmative :p

Actually, he can only take up to 5 neophytes, but the command squad can number up to 10 so this would likely only be applicable if you took 5 of each.
 

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Son of LO
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THe funny thing is that if I remember correctly, wound allocation rules actually force this scenario into existence. If you take equal numbers neophytes and initiates, wound allocation rules force you to take out a neophyte then an initiate then a neophyte, rather than just taking out neophytes as meat shields. So they're basically self-balancing. You'll usually have even numbers of both of them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Not sure where you are getting that. All I see is that 1 wound must be allocated to each model in a squad before you can allocate a second wound to any of the models. So, if you took more than the number of models in the squad worth of wounds it might even itself out; but then again, they have a worse save, so maybe not :p.

I really would like some more opinions on the Righteous Zeal question, because so far I have two different opinions one it from two different people.
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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As to the Righteous Zeal thing, you only ever take one morale check per phase (BRB pg44). You wait until the END of the shooting phase and then if(in the case of the BT) your squad(s) have suffered one or more casualties you make the test.
If it were exactly like consolidation moves as you suggest, then the moves wouldn't be done at the end of the shooting phase anyway, they would be done at the end of the assault phase, which is ridiculous obviously, and that part of the rule is bunk anyway because it refers to consolidate moves which happen as a result of achieving a "Massacre" in CC, which isn't even in the rules anymore.
So...if you want to play it by absolute RAW and say that you get a move every time that you suffer a casualty and pass your test then you'll also have to play it by absolute RAW that you don't get a move at all, as your move is based on a principle which no longer exists.
This all illustrates an important concept when playing with a codex that was written with an old rules-set. In the modern rules a unit takes its morale check from shooting casualties at the end of the shooting phase, and only takes one check. Attempting to use the wording of an old codex to circumvent that for a clear advantage is more than just against RAI in my opinion as its not even just preying upon GW's bad wording policy, but actively seeking out ways around it. I've played against at least 2 BT players in GW tourny's who did not attempt to use Righteous Zeal in the above stated manner and indeed did not seem aware of its potential abuse in this manner, just as I did not. If players in a competitive environment aren't utilizing it in such a way then I don't see why someone would try to in a friendly game, especially when there is evidence that it may not be legal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Yeowch.

*hiss* *claw*

This was not an attempt at abuse, more just an attempt at understanding the rules. It is as much disadvantage as advantage, because taking so many morale tests increases your risk of failing and falling back. I dunno, it seemed like it might be right. The issue isn't that I was trying to be some kind of cheating pissant; rather, the wording is horrid and I was simply trying to do it RIGHT.

But, you know, crucify me. It works.

EDIT: Actually, and not that I am trying to really argue this anymore as I don't really feel like being made into a villain again, I see nothing about only taking one morale test a turn. In fact, on pg43, in the bold text under MORALE, it actually says in plain english "a unit...may be forced to take several Morale checks in a single turn."

Granted, that doesn't say that Righteous Zeal worked how *I* THOUGHT it did, but...
 

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Son of LO
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Not sure where you are getting that. All I see is that 1 wound must be allocated to each model in a squad before you can allocate a second wound to any of the models. So, if you took more than the number of models in the squad worth of wounds it might even itself out; but then again, they have a worse save, so maybe not :p.
Yeah, I checked and I was thinking of the 4th ed wound allocation rules.
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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In fact, on pg43, in the bold text under MORALE, it actually says in plain english "a unit...may be forced to take several Morale checks in a single turn."
One per phase, not turn.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to come across as aggressively as you saw it, so sorry for that. Ultimately our opinions are not the thing thats going to matter, its between you and your gaming friends anyway.
 
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