[tehchillzor]

okay okay okay so I took some advice on my previous army list(s?) and came up with this one, let's see what some of you guyzors think of it.

General: Teclis

Level 2 Wizard + Seerstaff of Saphery --> Tiranoc Chariot #1

Level 2 Wizard + Silver Wand + Dispel Scroll

10x Archers

10x Archers

15x Spearmen

14x Phoenix Guard Tiranoc Chariot #2

5x Dragon Princes

5x Shadow Warriors

2x Bolt throwers

As for the heavy magic, I'm not 100% sure when to use which Lore(s) or who to give them to, although I was partial to sticking the mage on the chariot with fire. It sounds fun to see him ride around throwing fireballs at things and stuff.

I thought about doing Fire and Shadow for the mages and then Teclis grabbing either Life or High. Any advice here would be pwnsauce.

As for the rest of the army it sounds like I'm spreading my points too thin (5 dragon princes, 5 shadow warriors)? Or is that just normal.

I guess I would play semi-defensive with the phoenix guards and archers and casters hanging back while I pull some ninja flanking with the chariots or something.

 

[Allonairre]

Give the seer staff mage shadow, a couple of the spells there are not fantastic for elves if you roll them, but you can make your PG cause Terror . Then give the fire magic to the silver wand guy, in my opinion the spells are much of a muchness in that list and getting a specific spell is not as important as it is with shadow.

Giving Teclis life or high makes sense. Personally I don't like to state what lore with a list I am going to use because it changes from game to game, it is elves best weapon when it comes to adapting to the opponent, perhaps better to say what you intend the mage to do, support, damage, both etc. It is a pity that you couldn't fit the Banner of Sorcery in anywhere but you are very tight already.

Anyway good luck, Heavy magic can be fun.

 

[aenar]

A very interesting and magic heavy army list. You seem to have the magic phase covered very well but if you are to benefit from all that magical firepower you need to slow the enemy down as long as possible before they reach your lines. In addition unless you are playing an opponent with virtually no fire power your charriots will be toast by turn 2. If you replace the charriots you could buy two great eagles or some ellyrion reavers to support your shaddow warriors in slowing the enemy down enough for your magical dominance to have its full effect, and to get the full return on the massive magical points sink. You would also have enough points left over to bulk up you phoenix guard improving your defensive capabilitys for when the enemy gets to your baseline. And yes shaddow warriors seem to work best in small units of about 5 or 6. Alternatively you could use the points from the tirranocs to buy another unit of DP's to increase the power of your hammer. Personaly with so many pionts invested in magic I think slowing the enemy needs to be your frist priority. Good luck a very interesting and unusual list.

 

[buckero0]

I would take my seer mage out of the chariot and use the points for a great eagle. March blocking is what you need help in. Having your mage in a chariot is a good way for him to die.

 

[Esgalisil]

I would definitely drop both of the chariots as I'm not really a big fan of them. Also putting a character in them I think is just asking for trouble as they tend to get a little isolated without support.

I would use the points you get from this to get yourself a Eagle to help you slow down the enemy. With the set-up you are running there is a lot of firepower from Magical and archers / RBT, so the longer you can keep the enemy from CC the better. You already have the Shadow Warriors for this but with an additional Eagle you should be able to make your opponent slow march all the way across the board, taking a lot of fire in the process.

With the points left over it may be an idea to bolster the Phoenix Guard unit as they are extremely durable and also with their Fear factor can break a lot of units in large numbers.

The only problem with this is that you will only really have one flanking unit, (the Dragon Princes), but this shouldn't really be a problem if you maybe set up the RBT's and a unit of Archers on the other flank to take on any enemy fast cavalry / skirmishes.

Don't worry about the small units of Dragon Princes and Shadow warriors as they are great at this size. Both are powerful enough to do some damage and still small enough to make the most of any terrain you have available. After all it's not easy to hide 10 Shadow Warriors in a wood.

Hope this advice helps a bit.

 

[tehchillzor]

General: Teclis
Level 2 Wizard + Seerstaff of Saphery
Level 2 Wizard + Silver Wand + Dispel Scroll
10x Archers
10x Archers
14x Phoenix Guard
5x Dragon Princes
12x Swordmasters
5x Shadow Warriors
10x White Lions
2x Bolt throwers

EDITED: 1995 points. What's the opinion on it now?

 

[ga1661]

I normally really like having all three hard infantry choices, but here it seems like maybe you'd be better off sticking to two and making them both good, instead of having all three and have them be mediocre. Swordmasters more than any of the others need to be 7 wide because you need maximum frontage to maximize kills... they aren't going to beat 4-5 points of static CR (2-3 ranks + standard + outnumber +?) unless you wipe the opponent's front rank, because pretty much any attacks back will pick up a kill and negate one of your's. When you start -4 or -5, you can't give points back. Swordmasters may be one of the few instances where a unit champ is warranted, simply because that one extra attack can mean the difference between win by 1 and lose by 2. Going to 14 is important because you're going to lose some to shooting, and you can't afford to have your front rank taking casualties pre-combat, and if you manage to hold onto 5 in your second rank until combat, you negate one of those static points, and instead of being down 4 or 5, it's 3 or 4. You really can't afford to take a standard though, so more than likely you'll have no static CR of your own.

In contrast, it really would be a huge bonus to be able to go to 15 Phoenix Guard so you can have a realistic chance of going 5x3, and only being down 1 or 2 in static CR before you attack. Unless of course you were planning on Teclis sitting in that unit, but without a unit champion, you can't do anything to avoid Teclis being challenged, and when he gets slaughtered you lose. So that may not be a great plan... and if he jumps ship pre-combat, you're still 5x3, but you have no second rank bonus. So that's just wasteful unless you want to shift into 7x2 when Teclis hops out.

Just my personal preference, but I really prefer White Lions 6 wide, so my units are usually 12. They'd be 14, but I usually can't find the last 30 points to do it.

All of that being said, I really like the premise, but the above commenters are correct... without something to march block, you're going to have problems. I can't believe I'm actually suggesting this, but you may actually be better off dropping both RBTs, getting two Eagles to help your Shadow Warriors, and spending the rest on improving your infantry units. I know, running 0 RBTs is considered sacrilgious by a large majority of the HE community, normally myself included, but this is the one list where I think it could be justified if you really really want to run all three hard infantry units and not have them suck.

Just my input... I have no idea what you're playing against either, so I can't make specific comments that might be more relevant based on what you're likely to face... playing against Dwarves or Empire week after week is MUCH different than playing vs VC or Chaos every week.

 

[aenar]

This looks better, you have some troop to marchblock and slow the enemy down and give your magical dominance time to have its impact, but you probably need more ? from where and you have some lethal CC troops in the SM and WL and well as the PG tarpit for when the enemy gets to your lines. You probably would be better however concentrating on just two of the elite infantry types (which ones is up to you and depends on your preferences and the types of opponents you regularly play) rather than spreading yourself too thinly, PG especially work better in units of 18+. Not my type of army (with Teclis) but it looks as if it could prove very effective under some circumstances. How are you going to protect Teclis when the enemy gets to your lines?

 

[tehchillzor]

Hmm. I could do acouple alternative lists.. I could get rid of a unit of archers and beef up my phoenix guards and swordmasters and such... or I could do the same but with the shadow warriors. I would rather do the former since the shadow warriors are such cool guys fluff-wise and I would imagine they're good march block because of Scout. On the other hand, sacking ten archers is getting rid of the ability to thin down their troops more. Yar!

 

[aenar]

You can't drop one of the units of archers because you have to have 2 core units in a 2K army. If you droped either the SM or the WL you could get a great eagle and invest 100 pts beefing up the PG and/or the remaining elite infantry unit, you could take the SM up to 14 in a 2x7 formation and the PG up to 18 in a 3x6 formation.

 

[tehchillzor]

General: Teclis
Level 2 Wizard + Seerstaff of Saphery
Level 2 Wizard + Silver Wand + Dispel Scroll
10x Archers
10x Archers
19x Phoenix Guard [Full Command]
5x Dragon Princes
5x Shadow Warriors
14x White Lions
2x Bolt throwers
1x Great Eagle

This comes to 1930 points. Wasn't sure what to do once I got the this point.

As for the question about protecting Teclis, once the enemy reaches my lines (He would be in the Phoenix Guard unit) I would maybe swing around with the Dragon Princes to try and smack away at their ranks, see how that works. And I plan on having the archers lined up on the flanks of the PGs and firing away the whole game.

 

[ga1661]

How attached are you to that Silver Wand on your level 2? If you were to drop it, you'd have points for a 2nd Eagle and a 6th Dragon Prince. Having a second Eagle allows them to work in tandem, particularly good if you are facing someone with frenzy to lead units around. They are also really important against the artillery-heavy Dwarves or Empire, both of whom can out-shoot you if you try to sit back, or against the really fast armies so that you can have 3 march blockers. The Dragon Princes really should be run 6 wide whenever possible to maximize frontage; you really can't appreciate this until you've run a 6-man unit straight into the front of a 20-man unit of Chosen Chaos Warriors with Halberds and won combat 10 to 4 (From a recent game, 13 attacks with Champion + 6 horses, 9 kills, outnumber vs. 0 attacks back, 3 ranks and standard... obviously a bit lucky with the attacks, but that's the kind of potential you have).

Obviously you have a lot of other available options for those 70 points, but it really comes down to what you're comfortable with. As far as Teclis being with the Phoenix Guard, from what I understood reading your comment, you plan on leaving him in the unit and allowing him to be involved in combat? I'd be really squeamish about that; real good way to lose a ton of VP in a hurry when the opponent is smart enough to line his character up before the charge to make sure he'll be in base contact with Teclis, and then he won't need to issue a challenge (you'd accept with your champion of course); he'll just smash Teclis in the head... no save and T2 tends to make for a dead character really quick. If Teclis dies in the first round of combat, it won't matter if the Phoenix Guard hold long enough for the Dragon Princes to come in on the flank, you'll have lost the game already if your opponent is anywhere near competent. With Teclis on the table and casting spells all over the place, your list is pretty good, with the potential for spectacular. Without Teclis, your list is just average, if not a little below average, and you've just handed your opponent an enormous lead in VP.

 

[tehchillzor]

Okay, taking some of that advice, I've moved a few points around.

General: Teclis
Level 2 Wizard + Seerstaff of Saphery
Level 2 Wizard + Dispel Scroll
10x Archers
10x Archers
20x Phoenix Guard [Full Command]
6x Dragon Princes
5x Shadow Warriors
14x White Lions
2x Bolt throwers
2x Great Eagles

Should add up to 1995.

 

[ga1661]

Are you sure you have all the right point values? I just checked it, and what you wrote is 2,115 points... unless there's a typo somewhere in there and you have the wrong number of people in a unit.

I can't write anything without upgrade costs, but the rest is just calculator multiplication and addition. Only stuff with upgrades are your mages, 165 and 155 respectively, and your Phoenix Guard @ 330, and who really could use Banner of Sorcery if you had the points, but you're over the limit as is.

 

[tehchillzor]

Man I suck at mathing... this should be under the cap.

Teclis
Level 2 Wizard + Seerstaff of Saphery
Level 2 Wizard + Silver Wand
10x Archers
10x Archers
18x Phoenix Guard [Full Command]
6x Dragon Princes
5x Shadow Warriors
12x White Lions
2x Bolt throwers
1x Great Eagle

 

[tehchillzor]

I was also thinking what I would do if I happened to enter a 2250 point tournament at my local game shop, like what I would add or what kind of setup I'd do for an Archmage to replace Teclis in case they don't allow him or something..

 

[ga1661]

You are indeed 5 points under the limit now. I prefer Jewel of the Dusk over Silver Wand and you have the points, but that particular choice is pretty much a tossup.

As far as what to do without Teclis, there's pretty much three schools of thought on items for your Lv 4 Archmage if you want an offensive threat: (1) Book of Hoeth, (2) Starwood Staff + Scrolls/Stones, or (3) Seerstaff (or Silver Wand, but I think in your list you want Seerstaff because you absolutely cannot afford not to have Howler Wind against the shooty armies) + Scrolls/Stones. Which one of these you like may be heavily influenced by how much casting help you think you need... I personally like the Book, but a lot of people think it's cheesy, and you don't get any Scrolls/Stones.

Every so often, you see people take Ring of Fury over 2 Scrolls/Stones, but I'd rather place the Ring on someone mobile. I did see one fairly inventive combination the other day, and it lets you keep your Archmage in unit during combat: Folraith's Robe + Talisman of Saphery + Scroll/Stone/Jewel/Wand. Your mage isn't nearly as good casting, but he is near impossible to kill if he's inside a unit, and when your opponent issues a challenge and you accept with your Archmage, your opponent's best character is locked for the entire combat. You can't attack said character, but said character can't do anything either. Beware though, a good opponent may recognize your Archmage isn't doing anything spectacular and figure out you have the combo ahead of time, and as such, stay the hell away from your unit.

As to what to do with the extra points you free up if you aren't playing Teclis, I think the first thing you do is get that second Eagle back, and after that spend all the rest on pumping up those infantry units. As far as a 2250 list, there's a LOT of things you can do, I'm not sure where to start (with or without Teclis), except that I would highly recommend a BSB with Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, and Great Weapon; I think that's pretty much the community consensus on the best equipment for the BSB, but I guess there are other options.

 

[tehchillzor]

Teclis
Level 2 Wizard + Seerstaff of Saphery
Level 2 Wizard + Jewel of the Dusk
10x Archers
10x Archers
18x Phoenix Guard [Full Command]
6x Dragon Princes
5x Shadow Warriors
12x White Lions
2x Bolt throwers
1x Great Eagle

I decided I'd want the jewel more than the wand as well. Rather have a better chance to cast than have more to cast, I guess.

At an even 2000 points as of now, still for friendly games how's it look?

 

[Esgalisil]

I really like your list Techillizor as it has enough to be competitive in each of the phases and also the potential to be devastating in the magic phase.

I think dropping the wand for the jewel is the correct choice with the list you are running as you will have more than enough spells to be throwing around with Teclis and two level 2 mages but an extra power dice when you need to get one of those spells off is never a bad thing.

When you do decide to boost it up to 2250 points I would suggest getting another Unit o 5 Dragon Princes and either another Eagle or the Banner of Sorcery. But that could be just cruel. Oh and if you decide to drop Teclis and go with a normal level 4 Archmage fully tooled up you could have all three options