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ok so i'm thinking of doing a new DE army, already got ~800 points of them. main reason is a doubles tournament (we have to be fairly nooby to play) with my friend - he's going for a wychs/wracks deepstrike assault army, whereas i'm more of a fast movement warriors+raiders/ravagers list.

HQ
-Archon (Huskblade+Blastpistol+Combatdrugs+Webwayportal) -155
-Haemonculus (Powerweapon+Soultrap) -70

Elites
-Incubi[8men] (Klaivex+Demiklaives+Onslaught)(Raider+Flickerfields) -291

Troops
-Kabalites[10men] (Blaster+Splintercannon)(Sybarite+Blastpistol)(Raider+Flickerfields) -210
-Kabalites[10men] (Blaster+Splintercannon)(Sybarite+Blastpistol)(Raider+Flickerfields) -210
-Kabalites[10men] (Blaster+Splintercannon)(Sybarite+Blastpistol)(Raider+Flickerfields) -210
-Kabalites[20men] (Blaster+Splintercannon+Splintercannon)(Sybarite+Blastpistol+Powerweapon) -240

Fast Attack
-Reavers[10] (heatleance+heatlance+heatlance) -256

Heavy Support
-Ravager (Flickerfields) -115
-Ravager (Flickerfields) -115
-Ravager (Flickerfields) -115

comes to 1997pts.

Tactics will be that the Kabalites+Raiders move up as far as possible and open-topped shoot, whereas the Ravagers provide fire support. Archon+Incubi in Raider follows behind the Kabalites, then when in range pops a webway portal open and then assaults, I bring the 20man Kabalite squad through to FSU. Haemonculus goes with 20man squad, and gives Paintoken(FNP) to the Reavers, who go round the side and weaken enemy units with Bladevane attacks, and take out any vehicles the Ravagers's lances are having problems with.

Thinking that if the enemy focuses too much on one aspect of my army, the other parts will FSU. For example...
1} if concentrate on reavers = allows rest of army to move forwards, takes the bait
2} if concentrate on archon+incubi = same as 1, but may not be able to bring 20man squad through
3} if concentrate on ravagers = same as 1, but still vunerable to reaver's Heat lances
4} if concentrate on raiders+kabalites = allows ravagers/reavers to work their magic :), and enables archon to use portal to bring reserves through

feel free to make any comments/adjustments where you feel neccesary, and can the comments pls be about how my army will perform on its own, and in a 2000pts doubles tournament paired with a combat army

PS) can I put the haemonculus AND the archon in the Incubi squad?
 

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ok so i'm thinking of doing a new DE army, already got ~800 points of them. main reason is Tactics will be that the Kabalites+Raiders move up as far as possible and open-topped shoot, whereas the Ravagers provide fire support. Archon+Incubi in Raider follows behind the Kabalites, then when in range pops a webway portal open and then assaults, I bring the 20man Kabalite squad through to FSU. Haemonculus goes with 20man squad, and gives Paintoken(FNP) to the Reavers, who go round the side and weaken enemy units with Bladevane attacks, and take out any vehicles the Ravagers's lances are having problems with.
If you are playing your Reavers the right way they will not need the pain token. The thing to remember is the 6 inch move in the assault phase. Between turbo boosting, the cover save you get from turo boosting and the 6 inch move you should be able to either avoid or resist most forms of harm. Plus, in order for the Haemonculous to give the pain token to the Reavers he would have to join them at some point, and it can't be when they enter the board from reserve. If he goes through the portal with the Reavers they will be slowed down to his infantry movement until he breaks off. Best to just give him a Liquifier and attach him to the Kabalites.

PS) can I put the haemonculus AND the archon in the Incubi squad?
Yes. You can also put two Haemonculi in a squad, if you want to be really dasterdly. Furious charging Incubi are nasty.


I'm not sure i understand this fascination with blast pistols. I honestly believe they are among the worst pistol upgrades in the game, simply because of their range. For the Archon especially, just stick with a basic splinter pistol. If you saved the points spent on blast pistols you end up getting like 75 points back, good enough for another Haemonculus or other fun stuff.

Also, the soultrap should be given to the Archon, not the Haemonculus. The Archon has a much better chance of inflicting the wounds needed to kill off an enemy character, thus activating the soultrap. Are you confusing the soultrap with the Amina Vitae? The weapon that generates pain tokens?

For the scourges, only 3 heat lances? They can take up to 4. If you aren't using the rest of your Fast Attack slots, or upgrading the leader, why not split them into two 5 strong units? Having 2 units will allow them to cover more ground by splitting up, but could just as easily combine fire. The only real drawback is in kill points.

One last thing. If you are taking Raiders you may find it helpful to experiment with other upgrades than just flicker fields. The 5+ save is tempting, and Raiders are fragile, but a few of the other cheap upgrades like shock prows, torment launchers and grisly trophies can have a big impact on the game. They are cheap enough that you can cram in one or two without breaking your point limit or radically altering the focus of your army. Just something to think aabout.
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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Everything False Son said – is all good advice.

My opinions,

-Archon (Huskblade+Blastpistol+Combatdrugs+Webwayportal) -155
Huskblade is usually married to the soultrap, the insta-kill helps out when you are S3 and when you do kill something instantly you might as use the trap to go to S6! I like husk/trap Archons but they are not preferred as they can be unreliable at times even with a shadowfield (which you did not take). I would easily drop the blast pistol to offset the cost the shadowfield.

As for the Archon dropping the wwp, I noticed when you use him/her this way you tend to lose a turn or two as you have to take the time to drop the portal. I am not thinking the Incubi would like standing around while the Archon is fiddling with a techno-gadget in the middle of a battlefield and incubi falling all around from being shot at. I think the Archon should be free of such distractions and be only thinking of charging something immediately – leave the wwp deploying to the Haemys (which really doesn’t affect the list much while they do this).

-Haemonculus (Powerweapon+Soultrap) -70
This setup puts the Haemy into close combat where he/she is the weakest. Lower initiative, low strength and no armor to speak off just cries for this guy to stay out of assault and stick to shooting. The liquefier is probably the best flamer in the game and is golden on this guy as he has the chance to kill more targets in the shooting phase than an Archon can in the assault phase – see the difference? I do not mind a venom blade but definitely a liquefier or shattershard if you want to have some fun. This guy should also have the wwp, if you leave this guy behind to drop the portal who cares? Often times I got this guy running around the battle field after he drops the wwp as he is often forgotten by the opponent once the portal is down.

-Incubi[8men] (Klaivex+Demiklaives+Onslaught)(Raider+Flickerfields) -291
Wow, huge squad, total overkill, apocalypse style. Take some dice and playtest this squad against a marine squad – you should find them totally overkilling the marine squad with a lot of lost wounds left over. You could save some points here by dropping them down to 5 or 6 depending on who is going to lead them. If you are extremely certain the Archon is riding here then:
a. You need to give the Archon a Phantasm Grenade Launcher to give the squad grenades
b. You do not need a Klaivex at all if the Archon is staying with these guys
c. Reduce the squad to 5 plain incubi or 5 with and a klaivex if they ride without an archon
d. They need to start on a raider and not get off until they are ready to charge, this raider I would even think of adding nightshields to as this unit is priority #1 if I was your opponent. In other words, do not give them wwp escort duty, a waste of resources.

]-Kabalites[10men] (Blaster+Splintercannon)(Sybarite+Blastpistol)(Raider+Flickerfields) -210
I haven’t used warriors often but I like the blaster + cannon for now. The leadership boost is suspect however as I am not convinced the Sybarite is worthwhile. I would drop the blast pistol regardless of keeping the sybarite, if I had to give him anything, it would be a venom blade for a just in case incident. They are a shooting unit that you really do not want in cc and I feel a blast pistol is just temptation that will get you too close to what you are shooting at. Just an opinion though, they might be fun.

-Kabalites[20men] (Blaster+Splintercannon+Splintercannon)(Sybarite+Blastpistol+Powerweapon) -240
This unit looks like fun – never tried it though so I have no clue how they will work. What I can tell you is that if you have 1 portal then you have to consider if all your units come available at the same time that you are going to be tight for space between the large bike squad and 20 warriors all trying to take up the prime real estate around the portal. 20 warriors will be a chore to move around (hello ork players) and will be kind of unwieldy to maneuver. Too bad you can’t take the Duke for this unit, would love to see 3+ poison go to work!

]-Reavers[10] (heatleance+heatlance+heatlance) -256
1 special weapon per 3 bikes, no need to take ten, just keep it in multiples of 3. I would drop 1 bike to make it 9 total. I have used this squad before and I like it – the internet does not and they would rather see it as 3 squads of 3 but the thing about wwp units is I would rather see them larger for durability as you never know what kind of target is dumb enough to get near the portal and when you do get the opportunity then you should punish them severely (in other words, 3 heat-lances to the face? Yes please!). Definitely a fun unit, expensive as heck but you gotta love the whole “angry hornets” idea so please tried it once before you change your mind.

Ravager (Flickerfields) -115
-Ravager (Flickerfields) -115
-Ravager (Flickerfields) -115
These are fine, you can either start them on the table or put them in reserve or half and half.

Tactics will be that the Kabalites+Raiders move up as far as possible and open-topped shoot, whereas the Ravagers provide fire support.
This is fine.

Archon+Incubi in Raider follows behind the Kabalites, then when in range pops a webway portal open and then assaults, I bring the 20man Kabalite squad through to FSU.
This part is not going to work. WWP’s need to be dropped on the first turn in case the bikes and warriors become available on the 2nd turn. This means the Archon’s unit moves 12”, disembarks and drops the portal and sits there. There is no “when in range” as you put it, he has to deploy that portal no “if’s, and’s or but’s” about it. That is why I think the Haemy should have it, drop him off solo or whatever but leave the Archon and Incubi on the raider. In other words, you will not get the extremely rare piece of luck of dropping the portal and charging the enemy in the same turn, especially not on the first turn anyway. As for the bikes and warriors in the portal, who knows when they will arrive, do not presume anything as I have had units go all the way to the 5th turn before they decide to show up.

Haemonculus goes with 20man squad, and gives Paintoken(FNP) to the Reavers, who go round the side and weaken enemy units with Bladevane attacks, and take out any vehicles the Ravagers's lances are having problems with.
Now you got me confused as to where the 20 man warrior squad is and what exactly is in the portal. In order for the bikes to get the paintoken then you need to start the Haemy with the bikes and leave them on the first turn (leaving the token) and then joins the 20 man squad but that would mean they are both starting on the board – what is in the portal?

Thinking that if the enemy focuses too much on one aspect of my army, the other parts will FSU. For example...
1} if concentrate on reavers = allows rest of army to move forwards, takes the bait
2} if concentrate on archon+incubi = same as 1, but may not be able to bring 20man squad through
3} if concentrate on ravagers = same as 1, but still vunerable to reaver's Heat lances
4} if concentrate on raiders+kabalites = allows ravagers/reavers to work their magic :), and enables archon to use portal to bring reserves through
This only works with raider rush lists as all the units are on the table and can respond accordingly.

With a wwp list this will not work at all as your units may not be available when need them. How can the reavers respond to the ravagers being destroyed on the first turn if your bikes and some warriors may not even be available on turn 2? Reserves is a tricky biatch that can turn your plans sour very easily.

If you ask me, you would be better of dropping the whole wwp idea and stick to raider rushing – maybe get enough points to add the Duke, he can give a unit some nice poison and you would have a good chance to get a pain token from combat drugs (so you do not have to goof around with the haemy too much running around between units). Maybe deepstriking ravagers and shooty warriors on raiders would suit you better?

PS) can I put the haemonculus AND the archon in the Incubi squad?
As long as there is enough room, yes. Not a bad idea and if the haemy has the wwp you can drop him off solo to drop the portal (the archon and incubi throw him overboard). This would leave the archon and incubi sitting there to be shot at but they would at least have feel no pain and be free of the haemy so they can fleet.

Just my thoughts on the list, good luck and happy hunting!
 

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1 special weapon per 3 bikes, no need to take ten, just keep it in multiples of 3. I would drop 1 bike to make it 9 total. I have used this squad before and I like it – the internet does not and they would rather see it as 3 squads of 3 but the thing about wwp units is I would rather see them larger for durability as you never know what kind of target is dumb enough to get near the portal and when you do get the opportunity then you should punish them severely (in other words, 3 heat-lances to the face? Yes please!). Definitely a fun unit, expensive as heck but you gotta love the whole “angry hornets” idea so please tried it once before you change your mind.
There are reasons to take 10 vs 9, but it's up to you on whether or not it's worth it:

Going to 10 puts your rally blow half strength at 4 for both units, but it requires 6 dead Reavers vs 5.

It won't change the number needed to be killed to cause a moral check, it's still 3.

But, perhaps the biggest reason is blade vanes. 9 Turbo Boosting Reavers (this is without cluster caltrops) will cause on average 18 hits, 9 wounds and 3 dead to MEQs. 10 will slightly shift the math up to 9.3333r. Maybe not the biggest impact, but i'm finding more and more that the true use of blade vanes, other than hitting automatically and not being hit back, is that it inflicts the damage in the movement phase. This means that 3 dead SMs in a 10 man squad takes a moral check for 25% casualties in the movement phase, then has their squad size reduced by the time the shooting phase comes around, making another moral check from 25% casualties in the shooting phase that much easier to trigger. Anything that boosts your chances of getting that 3rd MEQ dead when you pass over is a bonus, big time. However, there is something to be said about skipping the 22 points for a 10th Reaver and upgrading one of them to cluster caltrops at 20 points.

9 strong blade vanes= 3 MEQ unsaved wounds
10 strong blade vanes= 9.333333r MEQ unsaved wounds
9 strong w/one cluster clatrops (assuming a 3 as the average roll of hits)= 3.49 MEQ unsaved wounds

There's all kinds of nasty tricks that this can set off against a non-fearless enemy. You can boost over them, kill some, get them to flee, then use your 6 inch assault move to get within 6 inches of them (without assaulting) to prevent them from regrouping next turn, and still claim your cover save when they shoot and flee. OR The one that has been nothing but money for me against GK Purifier builds is to first tank shock them with a shock prow, torment GL Raider, which will reduce their Ld -1. After that, the Reavers run over them, which will either cause a moral check at -1 LD again, or, if they are already fleeing from the Raider, force another moral check, which they will auto loss and flee, flee like miserable dogs!
 

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its the phantom thread again.
This thread kept appearing and dissapearing on the forum over last 3 weeks, seriously weird i was gonna post a response ages ago but it dissapeared again.

great advise given, i would say rewrite and then repost a new army list, by the way ya posted this in the wrong section it should be posted under army lists thread.
Welcome to LO!
 

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alot of great advice given, just one minor issue. you can't assault move after a turbo boost move. the assault move is a voluntary action in that same turn... i was really hopin they could as well, but that would be overpowered. but i love the idea of many bikers swarming around the board causing their lil drive-by's. :)

BTW, False Son, that is an awesome tactic/trick against the GK dogs, I'm sure they just give you an evil look when they realize what you are doing to their squads, lol.
 

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This was posted a while ago, not sure if its worth commenting, but I WILL say that in Doubles, you're always better off being teamed with a Non-DE player. a shooty DE list works great with IG, SW and other shooty armies. theres no point of running teh same army in doubles torunament when you could get an army that makes up for DE's faults.
 

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There's all kinds of nasty tricks that this can set off against a non-fearless enemy. You can boost over them, kill some, get them to flee, then use your 6 inch assault move to get within 6 inches of them (without assaulting) to prevent them from regrouping next turn, and still claim your cover save when they shoot and flee.
I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your point, but if you boost over a unit you can't move in the assault phase. If you move normally you can then move in your assault phase but your move won't trigger the Bladevanes attack.
 

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Was this errated or something? The inclusion of the word "always" in the Eldar Jetbike rules conflicts somewhat.
 

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Was this errated or something? The inclusion of the word "always" in the Eldar Jetbike rules conflicts somewhat.
From what I recall (I'll check tonight) according to the rule book Eldar jetbikes can move in the assault phase, even if they don't assault, however if you use Turbo-Boosters (Rules in the same book.) you can't do anything other than move in the movement phase.
 

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From what I recall (I'll check tonight) according to the rule book Eldar jetbikes can move in the assault phase, even if they don't assault, however if you use Turbo-Boosters (Rules in the same book.) you can't do anything other than move in the movement phase.
You beat me to it django. its listed under turbo boosters on pg. 76. the assault move would be considered as a "voluntary action in the same turn." You may be thinking of "jet packs" rules, which does "always" allow the 6" move in the assault phase. But hey, who says we can't utilize cover the same way with our bikes, when we do use the JSJ routines. xD
 

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Yep, i did confuse them with jetpack rules. Ah, oh well, disregard that part.

But, i did rush the LGS last night to try Reavers out without my misconceptions and figured out something even more slippery.

This BA player ran up the center with his troop Assault Squad (yawn). I threw the Reavers out to use Blade Vanes, but silly BA FnP stopped all but one wound, so no moral check just yet. But, i used the tried and true Shock Prow, he passed his tank shock and lost a guy trying to stick me with Krak grenades.

In the shooting phase he finally failed his moral check and was instantly destroyed because when i Turbo Boosted i arranged my Reavers in a horseshoe formation around the back of his Assault Marines. When he fell back it triggered an often overlooked rule- Trapped! The whole unit, Librarian and all, dead without making one attack in CC. If all had gone according to plan the Reavers would have triggered an additional test at the end of movement through casualties, but FnP got in the way. Still, i think i will encorporate this into my usual bag of tricks.
 

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Great job False Son! It has been a long time since I have heard of someone utilizing that tactic. I am sure many other DE generals will definitely look into that trick as well. You are very correct that many tend to overlook the Trapped! rule. If you dont mind me asking, what was your setup for your bikes? as in how many did you use with what gear options?
 

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9 Reavers, 3 heat lances, 1 cluster caltrop. I only have 9 of them right now, and i didn't want to overburdon them with too many upgrades. More cluster caltrops would be nice, but my army seriously lacks AT, as i only have 5 DLs in a typical 1850 list. The Reavers therefor have to have heat lances or blasters in order to counterbalance my overdependance on CC and dissies. 3 caltrops and 3 heat lances is a whopping 96 points! The line must be drawn somewhere!

Back to the OP. I looked at your list again, and i just got to thinking of how many points are tied up in the Incubi and their Raider. If you put the Archon in with them that's almost a 1/4 of your points riding in an open-topped, AV10 skimmer. That's a gamble. Of course, i have no real solution, except WWP.
 
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