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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys, I am a relatively new player to Warhammer in general, but I love my HE figures and can't wait to finally use them, that being said, here is my list:

2000pt High Elf Army-

Lords & Heroes

Lv4 Archmage - 320
- Book of Hoeth
- Armour of Silvered Steel

Noble BSB - 166
- Steed
- Barding
- Lance
- Banner of World Dragon

L&H total - 486 points

Core

11 Silver Helms - 283 (Noble goes here) (6x2)
- Shields
- F/C

24 Spearman (6x4) - 246
- F/C

Core Total: 529 points

Special/Rare

23 Phoenix Guard - 420 (Archmage Here) (6x4)
- F/C
- Razor Banner

24 White Lions - 390
- F/C

2 Bolt Throwers - 140

Special/Rare total: 950 points

Total: 1975 Points (25 spare)
 

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Welcome to the forums, to WHFB, and to High Elves! Good job on following all of the posting rules as well.

Aside from a few things, that list looks good. Pretty standard for High Elf list anyways. Those few things are:

1) Your Archmage can't wear armor, just like Nobles can't carry arcane items. Some Wizards in the game can wear armor, because it is included in their starting equipment or they have the option to take it in their profile. For High Elves, that's our Loremaster and the Dragon Mage. Other armies with armored casters include Vampires, and Warriors of Chaos.
I'd just give him a Wardsave instead. Usually, Ward is better than Armor, because a wardsave can't be modified and is rarely ignored altogether by spells or items.

2) Your Noble: I wouldn't give him the Banner of the World Dragon when you have White Lions who could take it on their regular standard bearer. I would also put your Noble with the Lions rather than have him riding away from the rest of your army with the Silvers. People don't take a BSB becuase they have to, they take one because you need it to help out the entire army with Leadership tests. If he's all the way across the table riding high with your Knights, the Phoenix Guard, Spears, and White Lions aren't going to get rerolls.
Also, I'd give your Noble either a Halberd or a Greatweapon. Sure, it reduces your save in combat because you can't use your shield, but with a Halberd you keep your ASF and you are S5 all the time, rather than dropping back to S4 (not very good) after the charge. With a Greatweapon, you also lose ASF but will still strike ahead of almost everyone in the game thanks to your huge Initiative, and you're S6 all the time (very good).

3) Champions: You only need Champions if you're escorting a character that you don't want pushed into the back rank by a challenge. For example, if a Chaos Lord charges your Phoenix Guard with your Archy inside, he's going to offer a challenge (Chaos Lords must challenge, as part of their rules). He will kill your Archy without breaking a sweat, so you don't want to answer with him. If you have a Champion, you could answer with the Champion. He'll die, but he'll keep the Archy out of the challenge, and he'll keep the Chaos Lord from ripping apart the rest of your unit. Now, if that Chaos Lord charged in with some Skull Crushers, it's quite likely that the Skull Crusher unit will kill your Archy. In this case, it would be best to refuse the challenge altogether and get sent to the back rank. Sure, you can't use the Archy's Leadership (same as the PGs) but more importantly, you don't have to worry about your opponent chopping your Archy into little pieces.
Some people say that you should challenge/answer any character that you don't want to have hitting your regiment. I agree, but the 'Overkill' from a Challenge means that you're still probably losing the combat. The only difference is that if the character causes a bunch of wounds, he's only removed a single model instead of a whole rank.
I usually avoid fielding Champions on the majority of my regiments. For your army, I would absolutely drop the Champ on the Spears, and the White Lions, probably the Phoenix Guard too.

4) The last suggestion that I have for you, is to drop 4 of your Phoenix Guard and just go with a 5x4 regiment with your Wizard in it. They'll hold up just fine with their Wardsave, and S4 isn't so deadly that you'll ever want to go wide with them. Move them over to your White Lions, so that you've got 28 altogether (27+Character or just 28 round). Lions are awesome and really dangerous, so fielding them 7-wide isn't a bad idea. Furthermore, they need the bodies more than your Phoenix Guard, because they don't have the awesome wardsave to keep them upright.
 

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Hey there! Welcome to the High Elves!
Couple of quick things,
1) Never post the point totals for units/models unless they have upgrade costs. (i.e. your Bolt Throwers)
2) Two things about the mage, what lore are you thinking of taking with him? As well, your archmage is not allowed to take magic armour. So he can't take the Armour of Silvered Steel. A large majority of people will take the Talisman of Preservation (4+ Ward)
3) Your noble, is he taking Heavy Armour/Dragon Armour? You are going to want a good save on him since he will be running in the front rank of your Silver Helms. (I'm assuming you are going to give him a 2+ armor save (mount, barding, heavy armour, shield))
4) How are you forming up your white lions? (7x3 or 6x4) Regardless of which way you do it, you will be missing a few attacks (either 22 or 19 depending on formation)
5) I'm seeing zero chaff in this list, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but depending on who you play it could get really ugly very fast. This is a very blocky list, and not much to protect the flanks or those bolt throwers, unless you plan on leaving the phoenix guard as a rear blocking unit, which only gives you three units to attack your enemy. One of which has very little staying power and will go into "rubber lance" syndrome if you don't break your enemy on the charge.
6) You are very champion heavy, any reason for that? Our champions really don't do a whole lot other than help push back mage characters into the second rank if you bunker up. I personally would drop pretty much all of the champions except for the Keeper of the Flame, because he can at least eat the challenges that get thrown toward your mage.

Not a bad list, could be fun in friendly scenarios, but I see you getting outflanked and surrounded or double charged which is never a good thing.
That's just what I see. Figured I'd throw what I know out there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Updated List

Thank you both for your quick and detailed feedback. Also thanks for being gentle haha! As I say I m new to the game and have yet to learn the little intricacies, I only have the small rule book from the battle of skull pass my cousin had a few years ago!

Anyway, here is my updated list: I could use some advice in where to bunker my characters, I don't know if they will survive/be optimised where in have them.

2000pt High Elf Army-

Lords & Heroes

Lv4 Archmage - 320
- Book of Hoeth
- Talisman of Protection

Noble BSB - 169
- Gamblers Armour
- Great Weapon
- Banner of World Dragon

L&H total - 489 points

Core

24 Spearman (6x4) - 236
- Banner
- Musician

28 Spearman (7x4) - 272
- Banner
- Musician

Core Total: 508 point

Special/Rare

19 Phoenix Guard - 360 (5x4) (Archmage & Here)
- F/C
- Razor Banner

24 White Lions - 390 (Noble here)
- F/C

2 Bolt Throwers & 2 Great Eagles- 240

Special/Rare total: 990 points

Total: 1987 Points

I went for the gamblers armour to shave enough points for a second great eagle, also the banner gives me a fairly good ward save v anything magical and I intend to have my WL on monster duty so whilst my Phoenix and spears take the rest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Alternatively, I have this slightly altered list:

2000pt High Elf Army-

Lords & Heroes

Lv4 Archmage - 320
- Book of Hoeth
- Talisman of Protection

Noble BSB - 139
- Great Weapon
- Armour of Fortune
- Luckstone

L&H total - 459 points

Core

12 Archers (AM here?) (2x6) - xxxx


40 Spearman (8x5) - 380
- Banner
- Musician

Core Total: 500 point

Special/Rare

19 Phoenix Guard - 360 (5x4) (AM here)
- F/C
- Razor Banner

24 White Lions - 440 (Noble here)
- F/C
- Banner of World Dragon

2 Bolt Throwers & 2 Great Eagles- 240

Special/Rare total: 1040 points

Total: 1999 Points
 

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I would prefer to see the BoWD in the WL unit rather than on your BSB. If you kill the banner carrier in the unit the next guy picks it up and carries on. If they kill your BSB with the banner then it is gone.
 

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Also you can not have magic gear and magic banner. I would also get a 4++ ward on him.
 

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Hey there your list seems a bit unfocused general consensus is that high elves belong in close combat shooting will do you no favors even the bold throwers are meh.

Bsb if on foot best load out is heavy armour shield of the merwyrm sword of might lion cloak pop him in the white lions and give them the banner of the world dragon. Drop the bolt throwers and phoenix guard and get a second unit of white lions 2 units of 28 white lions well one 27 to fit bsb in i a 7x4 formation drop spears to 30 so they are 5x6 hope this helps
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I can't really drop the spearman to 30 because I need at least 25% core don't I? Also I think this list is quite focused, and designed for CC. The archers are really there to make up the 500 points I need, maybe make a bit of a nuisance of themselves but nothing major.

Also I've found that Phoenix guard tend to be more survivable than WL, which is why I have then acting as an anvil type unit.

What would you suggest for bringing up my core total to a legal level LO Zealot?
 

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Well its all about what you want to play with sure pg can be more survivable but you will still fail a save 50% of the time, winning combat is more important. At the moment your list has 2 anvils and one hammer. Wl are stubborn so will generally hold and generally win combat I use to take pg all the time but on the advice of cap I gave 2 units of Wl ago I have smashed every game since I take metal for the boost to the armour.

Spears you want minimum frontage 5 and deep. Rest of core in silvers as a mobile support hammer. This is how I run my list now I have 30 spears 2 units of 28 white lions a unit of 11 silvers and I put my bsb here with the armour of destiny great weapon barded stead 3+ 4 + +. It works well the lions engage and generally win without help. However if any unit gets stuck you put the silver in the flank.
 

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I can't really drop the spearman to 30 because I need at least 25% core don't I? Also I think this list is quite focused, and designed for CC. The archers are really there to make up the 500 points I need, maybe make a bit of a nuisance of themselves but nothing major.
If you have anything in your list that is "just there to fill points" then your list isn't focused. That's what people are referring to. You could run a mixture of shooting and combat, but you need to have a plan for how everything will work together. Unfortunately for HE, our Archers are too pricey to really be worth it. Granted, I'm not the only one here - Furbyballer is practically the opposite side of the coin - he uses archers quite often as anti-chaff. I think that HElves have better anti-chaff options, or at least, more versatile ones, so I stay away from Archers altogether.

Also, the two anvil, one hammer problem which DK brought up, is another reason that people think that your list may be a touch off-kilter. Even with the Razor Banner, Phoenix Guard need some serious help to push through a combat and win it. Warhammer is very much a "push-broom" game, where individually powerful units can really shine, and you almost always want to take a regiment that is better one-on-one, than a regiment that you know needs support. Back to Furbyballer, he runs PG rather than White Lions, but he has two solid CC characters in the block, plus tons of magic support, and it's his only target for augment magic. It makes sense, because with so many characters up front, all he really needs is a regiment that can soak up ranged damage. He could use Bowmen for all the more their combat skill matters, he's just after the Ward.

Generally, the argument between PGs and Lions is this:
PGs need magic to win combat. White Lions need magic to survive a little bit longer. So where PGs survive twice as long as Lions, they're likely going to be fighting for a lot longer, meaning that they're going to roll their saves more often. It also means that they're only going to take down one unit in the amount of time that a White Lion regiment might knock down two.
If Lions lose combat, they're Stubborn, and less likely to flee. They'll stick around and you can buff them next turn. It makes them more forgiving. If PGs lose combat, they are onto modified leadership and could easily be wiped out with the overrun.
You don't get Victory Points for partial units anymore. I've played games where my Lions came out with 3 models left by T6, and my PGs were still at almost full strength. The difference is that the Lions had walked through several regiments and earned me a ton of victory points, and the PGs hadn't managed to wipe out a single target.
You do, however, need to bring a lot more White Lions than PGs. You're going to lose more bodies on the walk across the table, and in every combat that you don't "auto-pop" the enemy regiment in R1. If you go with a single block of Lions, prepare to throw a lot of defensive magic at keeping it alive. That's okay, because you only have one target. A single block of PGs is the same - one target for all of your "better in combat" magic. Most people who run Lions will run two blocks though. That way, your opponent can't focus fire on the only threat on the table - they have to split their attention between two decent sized regiments. If you've got a block of PGs, and a block of Lions, they enemy will just kill the Lions at range, and then block the Phoenix Guard, and you're stuck splitting your own attention between the two.
 

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Hi cap thanks for advising me on 2 blocks of lions they really smash face that list I put up 6 games 6 wins.

Tbh to protect lions on the march and in general the metal bubble spell is awesome giving them a 2+ against range is a massive bonus.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Thank you for all the constructive comments, it's really good to get the opinion of several different people to help me build a well rounded list. With that in mind i submit this new offering.
Lords/Heroes

Lv 4 Archmage - 305 (Shadow/Life?)
Book of Hoeth
Talisman of Endurance

Noble BSB - 103 pt
Heavy Armour
Great Weapon

Lv 1 Mage - xx pt (High Magic)

Total: 493 pt

Core
12 SH - 286
Banner
Shields

24 Spearmen - 226 (Mage here) (5x5)
Banner

Total: 512

Special/Rare

18 PG - 290 (BSB & Archmage here) (5x4)
Banner
Champion

24 WL - 372 (5x5)
Banner (Banner of World Dragon)

24 WL - 332 (6x4)
Banner (Banner of Eternal Flame)

Total: 994

Army Total: 1999

Hopefully my PG and SPmen will be good enough 'anvils'. With that in mind i chose to take a lv1 w/ high magic to boost a ward save on the spears. also i can just spam either soul quench or drain magic as a sig, so I'm guaranteed to have one. The WL with eternal flame are my monster hunters, hopefully the flame will remove any possible regens the beast has. finally my helms and WL are my other combat units. Im alright with leaving the bolt throwers out, but i'm really not sure losing the eagle was a good idea, thoughts?

I could have my special/rare like this:

18 PG w/ Banner & Champion - 290 (5x4, Noble and AM here)

40 WL w/BoWD - 590

2 Great Eagles - xxx pt

total: 980

army total: 1985

what you think, option 1 or 2?
 

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Ok strait away your bsb will be dead in 5 seconds no ward or even a decent save you must do something with that. Sorry if that sounds harsh not meant to.

I see what your trying to do but in truth the 3 small units will struggle so I would if you really want to keep the pg drop to 1 unit of white lions and 1 unit of pg even with 4+ ward tough 3 pg will evaporate same with 24 white lions though at least they should at least win the combat.

Really though if you have pg you don't really need spears just do 14 silvers with your bsb in (please get the armour of destiny) and 2 units of reavers to do same job as eagles. Then max special out loads with big units to actually fight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Wouldn't putting my BSB in w/ the SH remove the re-rollable he offers? I'm assuming of course my Silvers would go on the flank with my infantry in the middle?
 

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You still really need a good ward on the BSB.
Also 18 P guard is so small it's hard to be a good anvil with few bodies.
Same with the spears, I would rather have 2 units of 11 archers each with a Mage.
I would drop the P guard and grab more white lions. Any left over pts could go on some eagles.
 

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Hi no the re roll leadership is over 12".

I actually tend to keep them more central so that i can exploit an enemys flank thats stuck against infantry blocks.

no matter what you do you need a 4++ on your BSB minimum.
 

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Here is where you are getting confused regarding the High Elf heores... in the High Elf army our melee heroes are very cost inefficient vs most other heroes. They are costly because they are paying not only for ASF, but also pay for fighting in an extra rank... AND they only have the same toughness as a human man-at-arms!

Where he shines is as a BSB. To allow re-rolls within a 12" radius is massive insurance vs bad Ld check rolls. It is more important that he is alive to allow the re-roll of failed Ld checks than he is to actually do wounds. To prevent from the random bad roll that happens multiple times in every game he needs to be the most protected asset in your army.

Ask yourself this question... what is more important... do an extra wound or two in combat... or keeping half your army from running off the board because you rolled a 10+ on a panic check? (which will happen 1 time every 6 rolls)

Keep him alive at all costs...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I understand the idea of having my noble as a BSB, I was merely questioning the idea of putting him with the silver helms, sure it will boost his armour save, but as cavalry he could quite easily move outside the potential 12" zone he offers. Surely it would be better to have him on foot with decent armour and ward as opposed to on a horse?
 

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Not really silvers aren't winning fights unless supported so sending a unit of 12 including the bsb off to fight 12" away from the main force is silly I hold mine in reserve to exploit flanks and gaps unless you run a cav force you don't go faster than your infantry cav should be responsive.

The best load out for a foot bsb is heavy armour shield of the merwyrm sword of might that's a 4+ and a 4++ in cc.
 
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