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Toy Soldier Aficionado
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930 Posts
HQ-352
Wolf Lord
-Power Weapon
-Bolt Pistol

Rune Priest
-Terminator Armor
-Power Weapon
-Bolt Pistol
-Wolf Helm of Russ

Wolf Priest
-Healing Potions and Balms

Elites-509
Dreadnought
-Twin-linked Lascannon
-Missile Launcher

Wolf Guard Terminator Squad x7
-Terminator Armor
-x5 Lightning Claws
-x2 Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield

Scout Squad x6
-Melta Gun
-Missile Launcher

Troops-607
Grey Hunters Pack x10
-Bolter and CCW
-Drop Pod

Grey Hunters Pack x10
-Bolter and CCW

Blood Claws x8
-2 Powerfists
-Rhino
-Wolf Guard Leader
-Lightning Claws
-Wolf Tooth Neckalce

Fast Attack-145
Land Speeder Tornado
-Assualt Cannon
Land Speeder
-Multi Melta

Heavy Support-393
Land Raider Crusader
-Smokes
Predator Destructor
-Lascannon Sponsons
-Extra Armor

The Rune Priest will be riding in style with the Terminators in the Crusader While the Blood Claws and the Wolf priest in their Rhino will be following them. As for the Predator and the Land speeder with a melta, they will be tank hunting until the Scouts can come in. The plan with only one Grey Hunters having a drop pod (apart from only having enough points for one) is to hopefully drop it near the Terminators and Blood claws and help support them. The other foot sloggin' Grey Hunters will be slowly moving up behind the Rhino.
 

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Toy Soldier Aficionado
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes it would be, but the point cost for a venerable dread with Lascannons and Missle Launcher is not cost effective IMO.
 

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Wolf Lord
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426 Posts
First things first this should not be posted here. Please post future lists in the list section.

I would drop the Wolf Lord and make the dreadnought a venerable and use it to fulfill your third HQ slot. With the left over points you could afford a drop pod for the second grey hunter squad.

One of the beautiful things about drop pods is the ability for the passengers to arrive anywhere and shoot immediately. Put this ability to good use and give the Grey Hunter packs meltaguns. This allows them to come in and put pressure on armor in addition to troops.

Your scouts are illegal. Either you can use the scout entry in the space marine codex to give them the missile launcher or you can use the space wolf entry and give them a meltagun, there is no way to give them both.

Lastly, the dreadnought (whether you upgrade him or not) will benefit more from extra armor than your predator will. Take if off the destructor and give it to him.
 

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Toy Soldier Aficionado
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930 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Are you sure it is illegal? the codex says something along the lines of up to one wolf scout may choose weapons from the sapce marine codex. All other wolf scouts may only choose the following options. In my eyes this means that they may take something from the vanilla codex as well as something from the 3 options in the SW codex.

As for posting here, I know, it was a mistake.
 

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I apologize for the minor necromancy here.

I wanted to point out that in the SW codex, it states that if you wish to use drop pods for a unit, then the ENTIRE army must use drop pods. It specifically states that no other models may be used in the mission (they stay aboard the ship).

I wanted to bring this up in case this ruling had changed, in which case I might bring out my Wolves again :)

Prax
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
I apologize for the minor necromancy here.

I wanted to point out that in the SW codex, it states that if you wish to use drop pods for a unit, then the ENTIRE army must use drop pods. It specifically states that no other models may be used in the mission (they stay aboard the ship).
I wanted to bring this up in case this ruling had changed, in which case I might bring out my Wolves again

Prax
Check out the Space Wolf FAQ, if clarifies that you don’t have to have the whole army in drop pods.


As for the list here are my comments:

Lord: I would put either a frost blade or lightning claws on him…a power weapon really just isn’t worth it.

Rune Priest: As with the Lord go either for the frost blade or lightning claws (or my personal favorite the single lightning claw & a storm shield).

Wolf Priest: looks fine

Dreadnought: As JP said make him venerable and then drop one of your HQ characters, also add in extra armor to him.

Wolf Guard Body Guard: I am not personally a fan of Wolf Guard Termis but that is more just personal preference…they look ok though since you have the crusader.

Scouts: As JP stated the scouts are illegal, the codex states that one squad may be equipped with weapons from the scout entry in codex space marines and that all other squads may have the other options listed. I would suggest dropping the missile launcher & adding in 2 plasma pistols, then if you can find the points melta-bombs or power weapons.

Grey Hunters: They could really use a plasma gun & power fists, the bolters alone really don’t offer enough support to be worth it. As JP said if you switch your dread to a venerable and replace your lord then you would have enough points to give the second squad a drop pod.

Blood Claws: They look fine though I generally think that the wolf guard pack leader is too expensive to be worth it.

Land Speeders: The tornado is fine though I generally prefer an assault cannon over a melta gun for tank hunting seeing as how most of your tank hunting will likely be at the 12-24” range and the assault cannon is much better at that range against all tanks (except the monolith) and it is still good against swarms.

Heavies look good.
 

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Wolf Lord
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426 Posts
Blood Claws: They look fine though I generally think that the wolf guard pack leader is too expensive to be worth it.
Let me play car salesman for just one second...

Let's assume that you could take three powerfists in a nine man squad of blood claws. You would do that everytime, correct? This theoretical squad would be 162 points without special weapons or a transport.

For just twenty points more you can have this squad that would be a no brainer for 162, and I'll throw in an extra leadership, an extra powerfist attack in CC, and I'll upgrade one of the members to a higher weapon skill, higher ballistic skill and I'll give him access to the armory. If you figure that each of these three add-ons is worth five points you're only five points shy of a done deal, right? Well, let me tell you what you're buying for that extra five points. Fluff. Glorious, glorious fluff. (I'm throwing in the higher fist-per-model ratio for free.)

Nothing is scarier than an assault army coming at you where every single pack is being led by the equivalent of an Independent Character. Just the opportunity to place the tooled up model on the board is worth the whole twenty extra points for me sometimes.

I'm not advocating a WGPL for every pack every game, but they are definitely worth it for packs that you plan to get stuck in, but are not already being led by an Independent Character.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the WGPL is an even better deal for Grey Hunters. In that case you are only paying an additional 14 points for the WGPL over an extra powerfisted marine.
 

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Let's assume that you could take three powerfists in a nine man squad of blood claws. You would do that everytime, correct? This theoretical squad would be 162 points without special weapons or a transport.
I haven't used blood claws in quite some time, but isn't it a powerfist for every five in the squad (rounding up)? Meaning that nine blood claws is just a tad short of being able to take the third fist.
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
Right…JPs analogy was just to state the advantage of taking a third power fist for the number of models.

My issue with adding a wolf guard into a squad of blood claws is that I nearly always pair a character in with that squad and at that point adding in a wolf guard to the makes the number of points being transported in a rhino way too expensive and it tends to be overkill. Also when I add in a WGPL with either a Power Fist or Lightning Claws it lowers the percentage of marine kills per point spent on the squad when they charge (i.e. it reduces the efficiency of the squad).

On the charge:
An eight man squad of blood claws w/ two power fists (136 points) has a Marine Kill Rate of 3.92% (that is 3.92 marines are killed for every 100 points spent)
If I add in the WGPL with a powerfist (total cost of 182 points) the MKR is 3.85%.
If I add in the WGPL with lightning claws (total cost of 186 points) the MKR is 3.67%.

I have a really hard time adding in additional units when it reduces the efficiency of it. Also for blood claws I do my calculations on the charge because lets face it…if they don’t get the charge they aren’t really worth it.
 

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Wolf Lord
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426 Posts
I am definitely with you that I would not take a WGPL with a squad who I plan to have led by an IC. Case closed there.

As far as the effectiveness goes otherwise, they are going to find themselves in a combat at some point during the match where they did not receive a charge, that's almost inevitable. It will occasionally occur due to drawn combats no matter how well designed their movement is. Take a look at their overall effectiveness if they charge twice and are in one drawn combat. I would also like to see their cost effectiveness when the WGPL has a WTN and the pack charges into a Demon Prince.

Does the marine kill rate above account for a WTN? If not, I would be interested to see how it effects it. If you don't get a chance to run the numbers I will when I return from lunch.
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
JP here you go:
MKR calculations are the Marine Kill Rates per 100 points spent.

Here are the MKRs for the Wolf Guard Pack Leader (on his own) with: Power Fist & Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claws, & Wolf Tooth Necklace.

Without the Charge
WGPL w/ PF: 2.7
WGPL w/ L Claws: 2.3
WGPL w/ PF & WTN: 3.0
WGPL w/ L Claws & WTN: 2.5

On the Charge
WGPL w/ PF: 3.6
WGPL w/ L Claws: 3.0
WGPL w/ PF & WTN: 4.0
WGPL w/ L Claws & WTN: 3.3

Clearly the WTN is worth it for the 10 points (thanks for having me do those numbers I was unaware how much better the WTN was for wolf guard models).

Here are the rates for an 8 man Blood Claw squad with 2 Power Fists:

8BCs w/ 2PF:
Normal: 2.0
On the Charge: 3.9

So I concede that if you add on the WTN on a power fist WGPL then he is worth it at all times, I also understand the argument that you will not always get the charge which is indeed a good reason to have the pack leader in there for added support…though we agree that if you have an IC then there is no need for the WGPL.

Now the battle calculations:

In a battle where you get two charges and are charged once, assuming that you don’t loose any models because it gets overly complicated then, also assuming everyone gets to attack.
(8BCs w/ 2PF): 9.80
(8BCs w/ 2PF) & (WGPL w/ PF & WTN): 10.13
(8BCs w/ 2PF) & (WGPL w/ L Claws & WTN): 9.61

2 Rounds of being charged & 1 Round of Charging
(8BCs w/ 2PF): 7.84
(8BCs w/ 2PF) & (WGPL w/ PF & WTN): 8.45
(8BCs w/ 2PF) & (WGPL w/ L Claws & WTN): 7.99

1.5 round of charging & 1.5 round of being charged: (I did 1.5 on each side here just to keep the numbers between them all comparable, but regardless the ratios are the same.)
(8BCs w/ 2PF): 8.82
(8BCs w/ 2PF) & (WGPL w/ PF & WTN): 9.29
(8BCs w/ 2PF) & (WGPL w/ L Claws & WTN): 8.80

So the WGPL w/ PF & WTN is always an efficiency adder to the blood claw squad…the LCs are only better if the squad gets charged more then not. Though in the case of equal rounds of being charged and charging it is effectively a wash for LCs.
 
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Check out the Space Wolf FAQ, if clarifies that you don’t have to have the whole army in drop pods.
Thank you for reminding me of this! I actually think I knew this at one point, but had long since forgotten. Unfortunately, my wolves have been guarding my display case for a few years now :p

Prax
 

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Wolf Lord
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Thank you for running the numbers on that Plat, very interesting stuff. Good to know that the WGPLs actually work out to be the value I have always thought they were. Though it is time for me to make a concession of my own. Let's look at a pack of blood claws with and without a WGPL charging into a squad of guardsmen:

8 BC w/ 2 PF: 6.12 GKR
8 BC w/ 2 PF + WGPL w/ PF and WTN: 5.53 GKR

Here's where the trombone guy does that waaah-waaah bit. The WGPL comes up short and drags the squad efficiency way down.

Now, given that there are arguably more MEQ armies out there than GEQ, the pack leader will come out as an advantage more often than not, but their value is certainly metagame dependent. (Though isn't that always the case?)
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
I absolutely agree with you JP, that when facing non MEQ armies that the numbers are weighted differently…but I do generally favor the results when compared to MEQ kills since killing guards in CC is not generally a concern.
 
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