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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, I need some help to build this list... The aim is to build the list first and then buy all the stuff and paint it.

However, there is one caveat: I got a lot of stuff for pennies from an old friend and want to include most or all of them into the list somehow...

1 Lord
1 Captain BSB
1 Shadowdancer
1 Waywatcher lord
40 Glade Guards
9 Wardancers
1 Unassembled treemankit (new)

My current plan of action for building the Wood Elves revolves around following ideas... I haven't counted out how many points there are, but it should be around 2000 pts mark. Models in green are ones I already own. Models in italics and black are ones I would need to buy. Any suggestions? Ideas?

Lords:

Glade Lord

Heroes:

Glade Captain BSB
Waywatcher Lord
Shadowdancer

Core:

10 Glade Guards - Hagbane Arrows
10 Glade Guards - Hagbane Arrows
5 Glade Riders - Trueflight Arrows
5 Glade Riders - Trueflight Arrows

Special:

10 Deepwood Scouts - Trueflight Arrows
10 Deepwood Scouts - Trueflight Arrows
9 Wardancers

5 Sisters of Thorn
5 Sisters of Thorn

Rare:

Treeman
 

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It's not really uutilising the core you should roll with 2 blocks of 18 with hag bane tips standard 6×3 in woods

sisters aren't good if it was dark elves warlocks they are amazing. Not to say the sisters aren't usable they just aren't as good as other things in the list.

Drop the lord get a level 4 metal to work in unison with the 2 big blocks of archers.

What has your bsb got to protect him?

If I was you I'd drop wardancers they just can't do it anymore you have 2 good options for combat blocks tree kin (supported by wild form) or wild wood rangers with branch wraith and shadow dancer (shadow dancer knocks out ranks and branch wraith gives 5+ regen add scaly skin spell from metal for a 4+ armour save) I prefer 7 tree kin with a bsb on stag in there.

Sorry if this hasn't been much help.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It's not really uutilising the core you should roll with 2 blocks of 18 with hag bane tips standard 6×3 in woods

sisters aren't good if it was dark elves warlocks they are amazing. Not to say the sisters aren't usable they just aren't as good as other things in the list.

Drop the lord get a level 4 metal to work in unison with the 2 big blocks of archers.

What has your bsb got to protect him?

If I was you I'd drop wardancers they just can't do it anymore you have 2 good options for combat blocks tree kin (supported by wild form) or wild wood rangers with branch wraith and shadow dancer (shadow dancer knocks out ranks and branch wraith gives 5+ regen add scaly skin spell from metal for a 4+ armour save) I prefer 7 tree kin with a bsb on stag in there.

Sorry if this hasn't been much help.
You are helpfull, but I'm not yet sure if your plan is what I am aiming for. Basically you suggest two (2) big infantry blocks of volley fire and one (1) block of MCs to shock the hell out of anyone in close-combat. My original idea was going more with MSU route utilizing mobility (thus lots of fast cavalry, skirmishers and trueflight arrows) because that style is, IMO, more in the "character of the WE army" than just three big blocks sitting down and raining arrows on everyone. Still, if I take Acorns into the army then I could be 100% to have at least two Forests on the table every game (sometimes even 3 or 4) and thus could use them to protect the Glade Guards. I'll have to think about it.

I'm not too hot about Treekin. I don't like the models or their fluff and they fit poorly with my vision of how WE army should be. Thats why I'm thinking of slashing the Sisters and replacing them with Wildriders for some additional close-combat capability. I realize the Wardancers are sub-optimal, but I have the models and just nine of them is pretty cheap pointswise so I can lay them down for distraction and warmachine/character hunting duties.
 

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thing is MSu is good if you can make it work but in truth if your doing msu it has to be fighty units shooting will not winn you the fight you need to be able to get stuck in changing to wild riders will help with that but they won't make it through combats alone.

The thing is your whole list is distraction thats the point of an msu in which case keep the wardancers. As for glade guard i stick them in woods so they fire and fight in 3 ranks.

I was under the impression that glade riders have to deploy oddly now.

The acorn is 100pts of hit and miss. You're paying 100pts for 1-3 woods that may or not may not help you the advantage to woods is the +1 to cast and the fight and fire in 3 ranks which in your current list your not going to be able to use.

As i'm sure someone will point out a loord is a dragon cady nothing else.

Tree kin aren't for everyone tbh i thought they would have got a new plastic kit but they are by far our best holding combat unit bit of wild form they splat to.

the best thing is give it a whirl i have loads of models that i like but they rarely make it to the battlefield because they are sub optimal.
 

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I feel like one of these days I might have to sit down and play the "Gold/Green/Red" guide-making game with Wood Elves...

Anyways, 40 Glade Guard is plenty good, and I actually support the concept of going MSU. Running 3 ranks and then intending to sit in the tree is just pinning yourself down. Your current Core situation is a touch wonky.

Glade Riders - understand that they must Ambush. This is not a choice on your behalf, Ambushers must always use the rule unless their unit entry specifies that they may choose not to. So Glade Riders don't work in the way that traditional Fast Cav do - you won't get your Vanguard move, they aren't "dummy" deployment drops, they can't be placed ahead of the army to screen/clear chaff, and you can't even really rely on them to hunt warmachines because there's a 50/50 shot that they'll come in on the wrong side (against Ambushers, I always put my machines off-center).

The problem with Wood Elf Core is that there's not a lot of great things to say about it when you look at the rest of the army. GW really failed us when they moved Scouts to Special and put Wildwoods in Special as well (while keeping EGs in Core, for some idiotic reason). I really feel like they determined that they'd "top-loaded" the Core section and needed to drop models into Spec. The result is that our entire book is now plagued with the fact that anything you do in Core, something else does better in Special. To combat this, you need to pick which facet of the game you're going to focus Spec/Rare on. Problem? There are good and bad Core units which nudge us toward one direction over the other.

Wood Elves are definitely a shooting army. But Shooting doesn't win games. It doens't auto-kill the enemy when they Break and your run them down. There are only 6 shooting phases, and potentially 12 close combat rounds. Even shooty Wood Elves get to reroll S3 Combat attacks and typically hit on 3+, whereas their shooting faces modifiers and has no rerolls at all. The enemy will reach your board edge during the game, and that's when it gets ugly for Wood Elves. You need to have a way to intercept them. Shooting won't deal with everything.

From what I've learned in the few games where I've thrown my Wood Elves at an opponent, this is how our army boils down:

3 BIG weaknesses, and their answers:

High Numbers - Hordey stuff like Skaven will wreck us. When they've got 3 regiments that are each 50+ strong, there's nothing you can do to bring even one of those suckers down with shooting.
--Stubborn/Combat - Treemen. Having something that can just stand in front of those Hordes while your archers focus their fire on everything else will win the day for you. Treemen are great because they're hard for the typically low-stat "hordables" to hurt, and they're Stubborn so they can't be outranked, flanked, or overrun with CombatResolution. Failing Treemen however, any decently sturdy block will do, as long as it can buy time for your Archers to get away.

High Armor - S3 does f-all to armor. Knights, Chaos Warriors, Chaos-Warrior-Knights... we can't hurt them. All the Poison wounds in the world mean nothing if they get bounced by a 2+. We have real, serious issues with armies who can show up with an armor save.
--LoMetal, or Waywatchers: duh. Waywatchers can ignore armor outright, and Metal penalizes it. Either option works just great for me. Waywatchers are a good unit, but they're expensive - they're going to edge in on that Treeman, unless you're willing to make him an Ancient.

High Toughness - S3 does f-all to T4+. Chaos Warriors, Ogres, Chaos-Warrior-Ogres... you get the picture right? Here, Poison does help, but it's only 1/6 shots, and even if you bring in the 40 Glade Guard, that's not promising. 6W on an Ogre unit that you just shot your whole army at? Not good man, not good. Worse still, our options for S4+ in combat are even limited. Most of our Elves are S3 (and T3) so they can't hurt a piece of wet tissue paper in close combat.
--LoShadow: this is our only option for dealing with high toughness. We need to debuff them down to where we can hurt them. Shadow also helps a lot with debuff Strength so that the enemy can't hurt our fragile T3 elves. It slows people down so that we can shoot them more, it drops their Ballistic Skill so that we can outshoot them, and it can even knock down Initiative to give us our Rerolls back in combat. Plus, Elves with Mindrazor is a recipe for carnage. A lot of people are leaning towards Metal with their Wood Elves. I do with my shoot(ier) Dark Elves, but that's because I do have a handful of High-strength options for cutting people down, once I get past their armor. With Wood Elves, we need a way to deal with both.

What does this mean for Army Building?
The typical Wood Elf list that I've been looking at, revolves around the following:

Lords
L4 Shadow Wizard or Treeman Ancient

Heroes
BSB
Shadowdancers or L2s (optional, but especially with Treeman Anciet in Lords)

Core
Glade Guard, in small units with banners (for Fortitude only) and Musicians (for reforms), Hagbane tips if I can afford them

Special
Wild Riders or Tree Kin
(Tree Kin are mandatory if I do not have a Treeman somewhere)

Rare
Waywatchers
Treeman (optional, see above comments)

The army plays well enough.
The Glade Guard provide a solid core of shooting, and with several small units I have plenty of "dummy drops" and can even push one or two forward as sacrificial lambs if need be. They're cheap and cheerful. Their Poison is not to be trifled with, however. It's good for threatening big monsters and warmachines, since combined shooting will force through a decent number of wounds. The Poison also helps (but does not answer) High-Tough units. If an enemy is debuffed by Shadow to T3 or less, the shooting suddenly becomes devastating.

The Wild Riders are there to finish whatever the shooting started. They hit hard, but they can't take return attacks, so you need to make sure that you get the charge against stuff that is almost dead or nearly certain to Break. Their speed helps a lot.
Tree Kin on the other hand, are that sturdy combat unit that we talked about. They're able to intercept the enemy once they start getting a bit too close to my Archers. Between the two, I actually prefer Wild Riders - but that's because my army always has a Treeman in it to fill the role of interceptor.

Rare is all about specific threats.
The Waywatchers are nice because they'll drop an armored regiment like a bad habit. Nearly every army has at least one unit that relies on it's armor save, but not every army will have tons of high armor. This is what makes me prefer Waywatchers over Metal for anti-armor duty. Against WoC, I might want Lore of Metal, sure, but I can use my Waywatchers to at least demolish their Skull Crusher units. And that's a win in my book. Against other armies, I point the Watchers at whatever armored threat needs to die right now.

Treeman is all about being that interceptor, like we've already discussed.

The Characters are there because we need that Shadow Magic. Shadowdancers give some help here and there, but I'm okay with taking just a plain L2 if I don't have a unit who's begging for a Shadow Dancer's assistance (usually don't). I don't like going character heavy with Wood Elves though, so I'd rather take my L4, maybe a backup L2 (maybe even with Metal), and then put my Treeman in Rare rather than taking an ancient. More magic is good. No need for a Treeman lord, especially because he's going to be your general and you're contemplating throwing him into combat unsupported.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I hear you loud and clear Sarathai and actually what you are saying is fitting with my ideas...

So, it looks like I can go ahead with keeping Glade Guards in small units with hagbane arrows to fill the Core. That sounds like something I was going to do anyway. I can replace the sisters with Wildriders to satisfy my cavalry ambitions. Treeman has a slot for himself. Maybe even as an Ancient. Shadowdancers are in. As is BSB. Waywatchers were something I was going to include anyway... No Tree Kin, Dryads or traditional infantry sounds okay.

Now for bigger armies I'll probably be needing two (2) Treemen down the line. One as Treeman Ancient and one just a Treeman. Just to have some backup in case one of them is cannoned down early on. Right?

How about those Glader Riders? Do they have any role at all in army like this or should I just dump them from the plan?
 

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Trust me when I say that Wardancers are the worst of our CC Infantry. They just don't/won't hold up at all.
The dances are
+1A
AP & KB
3++
No +Ranks for enemy CR

They're also Skirmishers, which makes them a bad choice for a dedicated combat unit. Compare them to the other CC options:

Dryads (4pts cheaper)
+CORE
+1T, +1A
+Fear
-2WS, -1In [these are negligible, Dryads are still hitting most stuff on 3's, and still hitting before just about everything as well]
-ASF, +Hatred [rerolls guaranteed, but for the first round only]
Forest Spirit (6+ Ward, Forest Strider - all the stuff Dancers get except +1Rank in trees)

Eternal Guard (4pts cheaper)
+STUBBORN
+CORE CHOICE
+Armor
+Spears [better than +1Attack as long as you have ranks to use it, useable every round, has AP]
-1WS, -1Ini [again, negligible, especially with ASF]

TreeKin (3x Cost)
:: Same wounds, attacks
:: Forest Spirit (same as Dryads)
+ Armor
+Stomp
+Fear
-Flammable
+1S, +2Tough (makes them hard to kill, and lets them actually hurt things that matter)

Wildwood Rangers (4pts cheaper)
+2Strength (greatweapons)
-ASF Rerolls (greatweapons)
+Armor

The trouble with Wardancers is that you can't keep using their dances over and over again. If you need that 3+ Ward, you only get it once, and on the off turn you're a T3 unarmored and defenseless Elf. If you need those massive numbers of attacks, you're not getting them every turn. On the off turn, your best bet is to run with Shadow Coil, which still doesn't negate Steadfast.
The Shadow Dancer has the same troubles, but is at least a character who brings some magic to the table.

If you're going to use Wardancers, they operate in the same capacity as your Wild Riders - they charge in and lay down a flurry of attacks early on, with either AP&KB for stuff like Warriors, or +1A for hordies. Problem is, they have less movement, fewer attacks, less potential for damage, and even less staying power than the Wild Riders, all for less than a 50% reduction in points. Not good odds.

If you're not going to run Tree Kin, I would look at Wildwood Rangers. You know from playing Warriors - S3 just doesn't cut mustard, and T3 is a joke against anything. Wood Elves have very few options for getting a decent strength bonus, and aside from the Tree Kin, you're only option are the Rangers' greatweapons. As far as toughness, Dryads can hammer that one down, but Tree Kin just outclass them by miles because they also have better than S3.

What is it that you don't like about the Tree Kin? If it's the models, there are options for that. If it's fluff, there's always a work-around for that. Model them as Woad-stones and use Circle of Orboros Walds for them, from Privateer. If you're playing in GW, you'll have to convert something, but it's still doable.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I have two problems with the Tree Kin. Basically first is the look-and-feel of the army. I was thinking of building an army that was more about the fast-moving, skirmishing elves and less about slow monstrous creatures stomping everything. I can do the latter very much better with my Beastmen after all.


The second problem is the models. Due to them being big lumps of finecast a batch of three costs horribly. I mean getting a decent block of Tree Kin would probably cost more than the rest of the army combined. Plus, they are butt-ugly. Uglyness is not a big issue as I am going to heavily convert everything anyway. Costing more than a mid-sized army and the play-style is.

I'm not saying the Tree Kin are completely off the table. But if I include them I'd have to redesign the look-and-feel of the army more around Woods and less around Elves in which case I'd probably want a second Treeman and some Dryads to round out the selection. Less Bows & Arrows and more like March of Ents.
 

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the thing with your idea is though it can work you do need something that can withstand combat msu armies are normally 2 units charging 1, flank and front your list doesn't have this shooting is support and should only ever be support sadly if you want an elf list that shoots its way to victory dark elves are your best bet.

I whole heartedly agree with cap war dancers just don't cut the mustard and the thing is you want glade guard in core so that leaves you special if you want speed and combat wild riders and warhawk riders you want damage wild wood rangers you want tough Tree kin. you can make wild wood rangers work for you but they need alot of support i have used them but again as a block.

I know the feel of the wood elves is skipping through the trees shooting things then cutting them up last minute sadly that doesn't really work in this edition and high elves are the best for msu.

If you want to keep the fast shooty feel maybe something like this

Level 4 metal/shadow tali 4++ long bow hail of doom
Bsb armour of destiny shild spear swift shiver (or great weapon).

2 units of 11 glade banner and champ with bsb guard swift shiver (double tap) or hag bane character in each.
1 unit of glade guard banner

Special

3 warhawk riders

3 warhawk riders

5 wild riders standard shields

5 wild riders standard shields

2 treamen strangle roots

so pretty much everything shoots hail of doom is fun would be better on bsb but he is on foot so needs protection. the treemen will add to the shooting then get stuck in war hawk riders are useful they shoot and they move very fast and can hit flanks and rear easy and deal with the war machines that will get your treemen.

or if you want a lord take 2 level 2's one metal one shadow bsb

lord hail of doom (hiiting on 3's most of the time)4++ tali helm of the hunt great weapon.

hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
It seems like which ever way I go Shadow Magic is going to be part of the show. S3 is pitiful, but then again most Beastman units are S3 and I've made won a lot of games with Gors and Ungor (both S3) carrying the day with Shadow Magic support so I think I know how that game goes.

If I'm using Glade Guard Core the Wildwood Rangers would actually fit the picture pretty well. In army made mostly of elves it makes sense to have some heavy-hitting elves along for the ride. On the other hand if I'm using Tree Kin I feel like I would want Dryads in the Core for consistency. I mean if Tree Kin are in the party why would the Dryads not be invited?
 

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Shadow just helps elves alot. Tree kin are fallen elf spirits rather the forest spirits like treemen and dryads. Wild wood rangers are best used as a block with branch wraith and shadow dancer
 
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