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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
CHARACTERS


Dreadlord (General) - with large CoK unit 257
Cold One, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak
Deathpiercer, Pendant of Khaeleth, Enchanted Shield

Death Hag (Battle Standard Bearer) 225
Cauldron of Blood

Sorceress 150
2 x dispel scroll


CORE


5 x Dark Riders 85

5 x Dark Riders 85


5 x Dark Riders 85

5 x Harpies 55

5 x Harpies 55


SPECIAL

6 x Cold one Knights 244

Standard bearer, dread knight
Warbanner, Ring of Hotek

6 x Cold one Knights 162

6 x Cold one Knights 162

5 x Shades 85
Two hand weapons



RARE

War Hydra 175


War Hydra 175



Total: 1998


The general idea is obviously to keep the main army within the protective radius of the ring of hotek. The harpies shades and dark riders make sure that the cavalry line hits the enemy unharmed. The hydras protect the flanks and support the cavalry charge.

Now, the main CoK regiment is deadly on its own with the dreadlord in the middle, but absolutely terrifying with +1 attack from the cauldron. (thats what? 16 s6 attacks? Crazy!) It goes straight for the most powerful enemy. The two other CoK regiments can also bash through nearly everything with +1 attack, and the hydras are extremely dangerous with either +1 attack or killing blow. This should leave the enemy pondering on how to handle 5 units with this hitting power potential, especially with 3 units of dark riders aiming for flanks or rears.

Can it be effective? Can DE work without magic and black guard?
 

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this dont going to work because all is cavalery models it be good 1-3 turn after your units going to die very fast. but if you well play this list it can be good.
if you met empire or dwarfs its is a nice list.
1. only charge things you know you win in first turn if dont they going to kill you because you got very low strengh.
2. a very effective union is war hydra and cold ones in front of a big block of units with 3+,4+,5+ or 6+ save and shades, dark riders or harpies in flank or rear.
3. wear going the sorceress (runing solo?)
4. always overrun.
5. dont get banner on cauldron
6. exchange a unit of harpies and a unit of cok and get master bsb hydra banner in unit of dreadlord coks and on coks unit itself get asf banner and exchange the warbannner 3a ws5 s6 asf its a very hard unit

hope it helps
 

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I think the list will do fine, but the characters are just wrong for the list. The cauldron is going to have a hard time keeping close and safe to the rest of the mobile force. A scroll caddy is a good idea, but I would also like to see a seal of ghrond somewhere in there. The dread lord isn't doing much that a normal master can't do. Make him a master, or change him to do more. A master with the hydra banner is really good in a unit of cold ones.

Dark riders need bows. It is really worth the extra points, as it gives them multiple threat types. The shooting can take off a rank bonus here and there, which is important when you have no SCR of you own. You can't count on always being able to outflank.

Shades really should have great weapons instead. If they get into combat, the extra S will matter more than the extra attacks. Since extra strength makes it easier the wound and harder to save against the wounds.

If you have a unit that is going to have a character in it, you should make it just 5 in that unit, so you are 6 wide. I don't recommend going bigger, since it just gives your opponent a larger and more tempting target. With a all cav army, it is even more important to go with the MSU theme. You aren't brettonia, you can win without making lances of doom.

Here is what I would use instead:

Master: General, heavy armor, SDC, shield, lance, seal of ghrond, cold one ~ 144
Master: HA, SDC, shield, lance, ring of hotek, cold one~ 139
Master: BSB, HA, SDC shield, lance, hydra banner, cold one ~ 214
Sorceress: scroll x2 ~ 150

5 dark riders: rxb ~ 110
5 dark riders: rxb ~ 110
5 dark riders: rxb ~ 110
5 harpies ~ 55
5 harpies ~ 55

5 Coks: banner, banner of cold blood ~ 166
5 Coks: banner ~ 151
5 Coks: banner ~ 151
5 shades: GW ~ 90

War hydra ~ 175
War hydra ~ 175

Total ~ 1995

Obviously the BSB goes with the unit with the cold blood banner. Each CoK unit gets a hero, so they all hit reasonably hard. They all have banner since There was points, and a banner adds more to the unit than any other upgrade. Try to be careful with the banners though, they give up quite a few points if captured.

With 40 shots and 2 flame templates, you actually present a respectable ranged threat. It increases your options, and presents additional threats your opponent must worry about. Cold ones are good an all, but even with the hydra banner and characters in every unit, they are somewhat easy to bog down with a sufficiently hard unit. Having shooting to soften those units up and take out flankers is very worthwhile.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the answers!

Why all the masters instead of a cauldron and dreadlord? I mean i should be pretty easy to keep the units within 24' of the cauldron, which means that every CoK unit potentially almost have a hydra banner. 6 CoKs with a cauldron blessing hit much harder than 5 CoKs + a master. In the start of the game you can also use the blessing to protect your units somewhat.
The Cold Ones are also stupid, and reducing the chance of a failed test from 16,6% to 8,3% can be game winning. Doesnt this justify a dreadlord? The dreadlord also has a very desent chance of winning most challenges, unlike the master who just have a 1+ save.
 

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I am not sure how 6 cold ones hit that much harder than 5 cold ones and a master. With a blessing you have 12 S6 attacks and 6 S4 attacks. A master unit with no blessing will have 8 S 6 and 6 S4 attacks. The one with the hydra banner will have 14 S6 attacks, and 12 S4 attacks the first round of combat. Also a master has a higher weapon skill, so will hit more often against elite units than the knights. I really don't see any loss of power, in fact the hydra banner unit hits much harder, and the other units are more powerful than the non blessed units in the cauldron list. Losing the ward save hurts a bit, but since your opponent should only get 1-2 rounds of shooting, and for the most part each lance is similar, you really shouldn't care about the little bit of shooting they get. A 2+ save, screening DR and harpies, and the speed to close the distance quickly should mean that ranged attacks are going to be largely infective.

It isn't that hard to keep the cauldron close, but since it can only ever move 5" a turn it should be hard to keep it safe. Quite a few players play with lists that can't take out a war machine. The players who CAN take out war machines are going to have no trouble with a slowly moving one that is trying to keep up with a big group of knights. Also the blessing only gives the extra attack to the riders. It does not give extra attacks to the mount. The hydra banner does. In addition, it give you +1 to SCR and a reroll of break tests within 12", which matters when you are talking about an army that is low on SCR.

The reason for all of the masters is so every unit has a character in it. Since each unit is pretty close to being the same, there isn't one to concentrate attention on. The list also has an extra master to get a 4th dispel dice in it. 4 dispel, 2 scroll, and a ring is a formidable magic defense, and you really don't lose much. You really care to make a master survive a challenge, you can replace the seal of ghrond with the pendant, there is exactly the correct number of points to do so. My personal take on the matter is if you are in a challenge it means you probably attacked from the front, which is not how you use knights. Since you are fighting something you are afraid of losing against, it means that you failed to use your mobility to correctly chose your battles.

The issue of stupidity is a somewhat major one, but you are spending quite a few point on a single model that has to stay within 12" to give a paltry 8.3% improvement on the leadership roll.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I am still not really getting it...

If you start by comparing our "Main hitter" units. My main hitter with the dreadlord does 16 s6 attacks and 6 s4 attacks (with blessing), compared to your hydra banner unit that does 14 s6 attacks and 12 s4 attacks. Thats about even I think, but my unit has a 0+ save pendant of khaeleth killing blow general to squish everone in a challenge. When you compare the two supporting CoK units, my units will do 4 s6 attacks more than yours when blessed, which is easely enough to cause 2-3 more casualties - often just what you need to break an enemy on a frontal charge!
I know that you cant bless all the regiments at the same time, but there will always be the combats you would like to win, and the ones you really need to win. It is also important to remember that cauldron blessings are given after the stupidity tests are taken, which means that if a unit goes stupid, I can divert the power elsewhere. Your army list is pretty dependant on that hydra banner unit making its tests, because the two other units cant really punch through a line.

Also, the hydra banner unit is actually quite easy to bog down with a stubborn og unbreakable unit, since it only get the banner bonus in the first round. If the enemy doesnt break, you are pretty screwed. My mainhitter with the dreadlord on the other part will continoue to deal heavy punishment (22 s4 attacks the following round will proberbly still cause some grief).

Also remember that my main hitter unit costs 500 points and your hydra banner unit 380. It is a difference, but I think that considering their hitting power, I think both will get equal attention from the enemy.

What kind of units would the enemy use to take out the cauldron? Do you have any experiences with using it? I havent tried mine yet, but it seems pretty hard on paper to take down...
 

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I'm not sure about your numbers on your main hitter unit. 16 S6 attacks just doesn't add up If you are 7 wide, you will get 17 s6 attacks with blessing, and if you can get only 6 models in (max you can get against 5 wide 20mm units) you will get 15 attacks at S6.

The difference between a dreadlord and a master is 1 attack, 1 WS, 1 I, 1 wound, and 1 LD. Personally I don't think that is worth the 60 points difference. Especially since you really don't want to load down a character with magic items just for the sake of taking items that may or may not come in handy. If you are challenging things a master can not handle, you charged the wrong unit. Glorious one on one combat is for suckers and chaos, not dark elves.

Do you know what makes dreadlords dangerous in challenges? Not that they are actually able to kill well, but they are very hard to kill. If you character in a cavalry unit actually needs to hold a challenge for a long time, your unit is doomed. IF you really must make a character able to challenge there is enough points that you can drop the seal of ghrond and take the pendant instead. Then you have a guy that is nearly as hard to kill as your dreadlord, but costs 108 points less.

The units I built are able to be strong on their own. So if you have a turn when all your charges go off... all the units are strong enough to do their job, not just the one with a blessing.

If you are charging stubborn or unbreakable units when they have enough bodies to actually absorb your charge, you probably shouldn't have charged. Hence the inclusion of shooting in the list. Also the hydra banner unit has higher chance of blasting through a unit than a cauldron unit. With 26 attacks, 14 of them with S6, you can crash through most units unless they have full ranks.

It is much harder to take down than most war machines, since the crew has a 4+ invul save, and every member is at least a champion. But against magic, normal shooting, and dragons (flame breath) it just won't survive. It is funny when a fast cav or flyer unit thinks it can take it on though, the crew is quite the buzz saw against weaker units.

You don't have to tell your opponent your magic items. So when you put a BSB in a unit, just tell him it is a BSB. So it really won't get much extra attention if all of your CoK units have characters in them. Especially if he finds out about the ring of hotek in one of them, and the seal of ghrond in the other.

Also I don't recommend giving a champion the ring of hotek. People have started to wise up to that trick and are casting the handful of spells than can pick out individual models in a unit. Most of those spells only cause 1 wound, and have a low casting value. So your champion is a pretty unsafe place to put your ring. With multiple masters, you have your magic defense spread out, and your hitting power spread out better. Since you are running a pure combat list, all of your units must be good on their own in combat. You don't have magic and you can't afford 200 points that may or may not give you the edge. In a balanced list with magic, foot units, with a more rounded assortment of heavy and fast cavalry, the cauldron is more appropriate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well, regarding the numbers: main unit with blessing: Dreadlord 5s6 attacks, champion 3s6 attacks, 4 knights 8s6 attacks. Thats a 6 wide unit doing 16 s6 attacks. Just for the record. I cant really see the hydra banner unit doing alot more damage. 2s6 attacks on high WS is proberbly better that 6 s4 attacks on low WS. It depends on who you are fighting.
Dreadlord vs Master: I think I would gladly pay 60 points for just leadership +1. I roll 10 on my tests SOOO often. You are proberbly right about the challenge thing, but should neccessity arise (greater deamon, vampire lord) I have an answer in a dreadlord with killing blow.
Regarding the cauldron: It can be screened right? It will proberbly be screened by the CoKs automatically. Also, if the enemy manages to focus his shooting and magic at it, it is proberbly better off than at the rest of the army. He needs to hit a non-large target and roll 5 or 6 to hit the crew. After that he needs to bypass toughness and a 4+ ward save. It will continoue to work no matter how few crew are left, and with combat commensing at turn two it is hard to imagine it dead before then. If its dead I have either been terribly unlucky or have done a very poor job in screening it. Dragons are a problem... they kinda always are :)
I see your point with the champion and RoH. He could be sniped with the metal lore at least. But isnt it the same with the masters? They only have two wounds and no ward save...
 

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ah I had forgot about the champion. Dunno, I always have found that champions in CoKs a bit expensive for 1 extra attack and the honor of holding an item. I mean in this case you are paying nearly 70 points for a 1 wound model.

Your champion has no ward save. He dies to one cast of rule of burning iron, magnificent buboes, or steal soul. A master dies to 2 castings. Twice as hard to kill.

Most vampire lords are geared for magic, and thus suck in combat. Yes they really do. If someone is stupid enough to put their keystone unit in combat with anything that could even remotely kill it, they just aren't thinking very well. If the Lord dies, the army dies. A smart VC player would not want even a DE hero to fight it. Risk vs. reward is just not good enough. VC should be using wight kings for their combat characters.

Killing blow does nothing against greater daemons. The chances of even a dreadlord killing a bloodthirster or keeper of secrets in a reasonable time period is pretty much zero. I mean with a 20 inch charge, a thrister will attack first, and they actually can have the volume of attacks to get past a pendant. 7+ attacks with probable rerolls means that you are going to get hit quite a bit, and it will get some hits past the ward. Your counter attacks are going to be hitting on 4s and wounding on 6s since you didn't get the charge. A keeper of secrets is usually in a leadership bomb army, so you will need to pass a LD test at a negative to be able to even attack back at the keeper. Assuming you don't just run away from the siren song. Try making a terror test when the banner of despair and the masque is affecting your unit, with the siren song you have to charge, if you can't you must flee. If you flee, the keeper has a 20 inch charge range, and probably activated the power when it was pretty close to you, so has a very good chance of a run down.

I am not saying that DE have no answers for greater daemons, but in a mounted list, throwing a character out there really doesn't do much for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for the imputs! I will have some things to consider if I choose to run a cavalry list some time. Should be fun to test out.
 
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