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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
HI guys, totally new to the board, first post and I'm already looking for help! ^_^

played WHF for about 13 years on and off and High Elves for just as long.

Some friends and I are looking at going to the Throne of Skulls next year so I am looking at my list. I gave always played infantry combat based high elves so in the interest of doing something different, I have gone for an all cavalry list.

Feedback welcome, the tournament is 2000pts, no comp.


Tyrion. 410

Mage. 160
level2
boarded steed
dispel scroll

Noble. 151
bsb
Lance
dragon armour
enchanted sheild
boarded steed
potion of strength

13 silver helms. 329
sheilds
full command

5 reavers. 85
bows/no spears
musician

5 reavers. 85
bows/no spears

10 dragon princes. 290

Skycutter. 120
bolt thrower

Skycutter. 120
Bolt thrower

Frostheart Phoenix. 240


Total: 1999

So, bsb and mage go in SH units whilst tyrion hangs in the DP unit. Some questions ...

What lore for the mage? I wanted high, but is beast better? Or shadow?

What base size do I Mount tyrion on? his mount isn't monstrous, so, normal cavalry base?

Any other advice or guidance?
 

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welcome to LO!
a few things before I get to your list:
1. NEVER, REPEAT NEVER, POST UNIT COSTS WITHOUT UPGRADES. For example, Tyrion, DPs and your Icenix. Either go *** or leave it blank. We don't want GW to get mad at us after all
2. Army Lists go into the army list part of the forum.
3.Tyrion goes on the base he came with. His base size does not determine whether or not he is moncav
Ok, ToS is really competitive, right? This list ain't competitive. We can run all cav, but this isn't how to do it. If you want to play with your buds, it's fine, but I doubt that it'll hold up to the Nurgle DP lists that you'll see at a major tournament.

Tyrion... Is he likely going to kill anywhere near to his points cost? No... (if he gets in a challenge with someone at that point cost he's dead). So let's look at support... breath weapon is good, as is the boosted Ld range. But for over 400 points (see what I did there... nothing exact...) he's not worth it. You could build a similar guy out of your basic prince and have him come a lot cheaper. Not as good, maybe, but a LOT cheaper. We're high elves, we need as many boots (or hooves) on the ground as we can get.

I'd do my best to either give my BSB a 1++ rerollable armor save or a 1+4++ (Enchanted Shield+Talisman of Preservation and normal gear). We need him alive- we do NOT want to break.

I guess I could be wrong, but the reavers with the musician should be slightly more expensive than the ones without, correct?

Skycutters aren't worth it. They just aren't. Especially in a cav list- they're the slowest thing on the field for you.
Icenixes are good, but I might think about swapping it for it's younger brother. The ability to reduce ranks would be very nice for a list that relies on breaking it's opponents on the charge, as cavalry does not like steadfast.

[MENTION=9309]CaptainSarathai[/MENTION] is the best for advice on a cavalry list, but I haven't heard from him in a while on LO... This stuff is just the basics. If you want to create a tournament list you'll need to shave off a lot of extras like the skycutters and Tyrion.
 

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Welcome to the forum, and glad that you found some help already! Karl's a veteran around here, so of course he already covered all of the forum rules issues, and where stuff goes etc. I'll edit your post to get rid of the "naked" points, and I'll move it into the Armylist section at the top of this forum. Should be good from there. Now on to your list!

Some friends and I are looking at going to the Throne of Skulls next year so I am looking at my list. I gave always played infantry combat based high elves so in the interest of doing something different, I have gone for an all cavalry list.

Feedback welcome, the tournament is 2000pts, no comp.


Tyrion. 410
Rule of thumb for High Elves: you don't want a "fighty" character. We're stuck with S4 at best, and T3 all the time (worst). This makes us extremely fragile, when compared to something like a Chaos Exalted (hero) with S5 and T4 base, and ready access to T5 and 3W. Look at what you're getting from Tyrion and compare:
:: Sunfang = Giant Blade + Banner of Flame. The trade off is that you need someone to carry the BoF, and you lose your Breathweapon. The gain is that now your entire regiment has Flaming Magical Attacks.
:: Dragon Armor of Aenarion = Heavy Armor + Barding + Shield + Dragonhelm + TalPres. You're going to eat up your magic item allowance, but on a combat character there's not much better to spend it on. Ultimately, you're losing nothing here: 1+4++/2++(fire).
::Heart of Avelorn = okay, this is actually something worth taking him for, assuming you eat a KB or Multiwound (you get a LoS! against cannon-snipes) rather than just getting pounded out by standard attacks. Otherwise, MR2 is an option that you can snag in the magic items section, and it won't be lost if you trigger the Heart's preservation effect (that 2+ Save removes the Heart and MR2 from Tyrion after use).

Otherwise he's just got the 18" Inspiring Presence. For a comparative build, you're looking at:
Prince w/ Heavy Armor, Shield, Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, DragonHelm, TalPres
@ 271
Cost is 40% cheaper than Tyrion's base pricing. And that's if you're actually running a Tyrion clone at all.


Mage. 160
level2
boarded steed
dispel scroll
As your only caster, this guy would really appreciate a Wardsave. Also, a L2 is going to be hard pressed to stop inbound magic, you're going to be limiting yourself mostly to picking "the big spell" and just stopping that one. Most folks favor the +4 to Cast. Not just High Elves, but everyone.

Noble. 151
bsb
Lance
dragon armour
enchanted sheild
boarded steed
potion of strength
Lance is a "once and done" weapon, and relies on the charge, and costs more than a Halberd, which is a constant +1S regardless of situation. No, you can't carry a Shield with it, but you can wear a helmet and still get a solid 2+. What's the Potion of Strength for? The off rounds?

13 silver helms. 329
sheilds
full command
Full command is alright here because the Champ eats challenges. Shields are always good. Three ranks are going to get full attacks. This is a solid regiment, but if you're going to put a Wizard on the front lines like this, you need to give him a save or find a way to bury him in the second rank (if you don't know how, we can show you).

5 reavers
bows/no spears
musician
This is my opinion, and others WILL disagree, but Spears trump Bows every time with these guys. Reavers are too pricey for pure redirection, but they excel as anti-chaff. If you want to shoot chaff, use Archers. If you want to KILL chaff, use Reavers. Think:
Bow = 1A, S3, Hit 3+, Modifiers
Spear = 1A, S4, Hit 3+ (usually), no modifiers, Rerolls to Hit. Plus Horse Attacks, plus the chance to Break and subsequently auto-kill the unit.
If you are fleeing and then rallying, then yes - bows are nice. But I never give up my Spears, because my Reavers aren't for shooting stuff - they're for clearing the line for everyone else. Especially in a cavalry army, where my entire force is capable of avoidance, meaning I have less need to "redirect" a (typically) infantry-based Death Star.


5 reavers
bows/no spears
And no musician either?

10 dragon princes
No command AT ALL? No champ to eat challenges for your Combat Lord, and no Banner for that easy +1CR? That's rough man, it seems like you had to trim a lot to fit this unit in there. Also, Princes aren't that great for ranked fighting. Their biggest advantage is the 2A, and they lose that from the 2nd-3rd ranks. Granted, in a Cavalry list it's less important to fill your Cavalry requirement with Core and free space for Special Infantry, but it's still good to optimize. I would actually run smaller blocks of Princes, 6-7, and use them to smash into combats where you have Silvers bringing the ranked muscles.

Skycutter. 120
bolt thrower
Skycutter. 120
Bolt thrower
Never had much love for these actually, and always preferred straight RBTs if I wanted them. But I've heard good stories. I think it has a lot to do with my inability to use them properly - I had the same problem with Fast Cavalry for a long time.

Frostheart Phoenix
Eagles would be my go-to here. Several of them, all with ASF if you go for upgrades. The idea is that a single cannonball could kill/incap your Frosty, whereas Eagles are cheap enough for suicidal redirection, screening, multiple eagles handle multiple chaff, and you can throw 2 targets at their artillery/guns rather than one. Since one unit can only shoot one unit, half of your Eagles should definitely get to the fighting and do the job - and the other half might still make it though.


Total: 1999

So, bsb and mage go in SH units whilst tyrion hangs in the DP unit. Some questions ...

What lore for the mage? I wanted high, but is beast better? Or shadow?
High is good if you join the Princes, to boost their current Ward. Otherwise, Beasts is good for Cavalry armies, and Shadow is ALWAYS good. I would actually consider Death though, for the Leadership debuffs so that you can break the enemy on the charge. We have "rubber lances syndrome", which should really be renamed "lances syndrome" and just left at that. If the enemy doesn't break on the charge, we reset to S3 and we're NEVER going to win another round of combat after that. We NEED the enemy to break on the charge.

What base size do I Mount tyrion on? his mount isn't monstrous, so, normal cavalry base?
The base that he comes with. Fairly certain it's a 50mm square. He still gets a LoS! roll, but will displace 2 knights instead of one. This makes him a good option for bumping the Mage to the second rank.

Any other advice or guidance?
welcome to LO!
a few things before I get to your list:
Ok, ToS is really competitive, right? This list ain't competitive. We can run all cav, but this isn't how to do it. If you want to play with your buds, it's fine, but I doubt that it'll hold up to the Nurgle DP lists that you'll see at a major tournament.
Agreed, although I've heard tales that ToS draws a little bit of everyone. So you might win your initial few games, but you're not walking away with the gold. That is definitely reserved for the "traditional" beat-stick builds, like EpiNurgle Daemons (lots of T5-6, lots of Regen, Unbreakable, 5+ Wards, etc) Warriors of Chaos (armor, toughness, and nobody beats them in combat) and then the other "Power Builds" for the armies - notably High Elf infantry lists. Cavalry is going to struggle a LOT against the Daemons, because there is NO CHANCE of Breaking them on the charge. Cavalry suffers hard, unfortunately. When it works, it is AMAZING, but you have to be facing armies who are vulnerable to S5 and even S3. Typically Empire, Skaven, Dark Elves (HE have armor) Beastmen, and O&G.

I'd do my best to either give my BSB a 1++ rerollable armor save or a 1+4++ (Enchanted Shield+Talisman of Preservation and normal gear). We need him alive- we do NOT want to break.
Exactly. BSB and General are there for the Ld buffs and to boost up your combat units. They're not Chaos Lords. Most people run a L4 for their general because it's better to have the magic and get favorable combats and never NEED the higher leadership of a CC character.

Icenixes are good, but I might think about swapping it for it's younger brother. The ability to reduce ranks would be very nice for a list that relies on breaking it's opponents on the charge, as cavalry does not like steadfast.
Agreed. If you don't go Eagles, go with Firenixes if possible. I use them in my Caledor army (dragon/cav themed) and they work quite well. Then again, I play at 2.5k around here, so I can afford to double-up on them (same as the Eagles: 2 targets, 1 cannon, etc).

This stuff is just the basics. If you want to create a tournament list you'll need to shave off a lot of extras like the skycutters and Tyrion.
Agreed again - you need to trim a LOT of fat out of this army. You currently have just two combat regiments, and only one of them has a shot at really touching Steadfast. Try to get a pair of Silver regiments in, and then build the army to support them and help them win combats by huge margins. Limit your characters as much as possible. While I haven't tried it yet with Elves, I have seen WoC players (my other army) run Cavalry with JUST Heroes, possibly even going as far as no wizards. Just a Hero general, and a Hero BSB.

[MENTION=9309]CaptainSarathai[/MENTION] is the best for advice on a cavalry list, but I haven't heard from him in a while on LO...
I'm here. I'm always here. LO has just been very quiet...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thank you both for your honest and upfront feedback. Especially to Captainsarathai for the depth of your suggestion.

I have had a little think over and re written. Some items remain due to model limitations (reavers without spears) others because I really do see merit in them (skycutters)


Please, pass your eye again...

Prince
ogreblade
talpres
heavyarmour
sheild
draghelm
barded steed

Mage
level 2 Shadow
barded steed
dispel scroll
gold crown

Noble
bsb
Barded steed
dragon armour
enchanted sheild
dawn stone

13 SH
sheilds
full command

5 reavers
bows/no spears
musician

5 reavers
bows/no spears
musician

10 dragon princes
Champ
standard
banner of flame

Skycutter
Boltvthrower

Skycutter
bolt thrower


Frost heart

Great eagle

Great eagle
 

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looks better already. But, there's one thing that stands out to me:
Chaff- 4-6 units (reavers and eagle for sure, and I'd put the skycutters in there too- they aren't going to be winning many combats) [A note on reavers-what models do you have? The IoB ones? You'll be fine if you use them as spears instead of bows]
Combat Blocks- 2 units

I'd look at switching this around somewhat, especially at 2k. Also, maybe consider dropping the prince? If you drop him that's around 9 more dragon princes that you can get into your list. Prince- 4 S6 attacks... DPs- 18 S5 attacks. This is why we don't do combat characters very well.

I don't have a ton of experience with all cav (I prefer infantry or mixed with SH core) so I don't have a ton of input (at least, not anywhere near as much as Captain will have)... When Captain said a ward on your mage the GCofA wasn't exactly what he was talking about- That's a one time thing. If your mage is going to be in the front rank then you'll definitely want a solid ward that is active all the time on him.
 

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Yep, I'm still with Karl - you'd be better off knocking out that Prince, and then working on getting another combat unit in the army.
Right now you have a very unstable army. Your Silver Helms and Dragon Princes are your only damage options, but then you've got Reavers for anti-chaff, Eagles for anti-chaff and artillery, a Frostheart for support, and Skycutters (not sure how/what you're using them to accompish). My thoughts are:

Reavers or Eagles (or Cutters): if you have Reavers, you don't have as much need for Eagles. Eagles are there if you fill your Core on Silvers and don't have/want Reavers in the list yet. No point overspending on Core (except in the case of Cav armies, as Silvers have benefits over D.Princes). If you're using Cutters as chaff, lump them in here as well.

Cutters or Frosty: both of these strike me as support units. You really don't need this many of them. The Frostheart is okay, but I consider it so much of a luxury. It's great to have one flying around for those boosts, but you need to have units that can bring ranks to the combat.

In a perfect world, you'd find enough points to field another block of Silver Helms, and then split your Dragon Princes into a pair of small, supporting units. To that end, I would probably ditch the Reavers for 2 Eagels, and then knock out the Cutters and Frosty.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
OK, so hopefully, this is my last list...

Archmage
lv4 Shadow
talk Pres
dispel scroll
ironcurse
barded steed

Noble
bsb
heavy armour
sheild
drag helm
dawn stone
barded steed

14 silver helms
sheild
full comm

14 silver helms
sheild
full comm

5 DP

5 DP

Sky cutter
bolt thrower

Skycutter
bolt thrower

Frost heart

Great eagle


So, archmage has a 4+ward, and shadow for switching tricks with the BsB. Speaking of the BsB, he is sporting the latest fashion from the port of Lothern, a 1+ rerollable armour save and a 2++ vs flaming.

Managed to squeeze a second unit of SH in. I currently have one character in each unit so both are running at 15, the DPs now are in 5s (though I feel uneasy about this!)

No Reavers now, so my chaff hunters are the two skycutters (I am sure I am going to prove how useful these are!) And an eagle. The Frost still remains as I feel they act as a force multiplier when trying to keep your small units of cavalry alive in combat.

Anyway, that's it.... how am I looking?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Aaaaaaaaand, if I do drop the skycuttrs (which I'm now tempted to) from the above list. I can take 2 Titanic chariots (SH support? Flankers?) And 2 extra eagles (3 total) and reform my DPs into a 10?
 

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I'm assuming you mean tirannoc chariots ;)
I would prefer that, as the chariots aren't that much slower (a whole 1") and do the same number of impact hits. However, I don't believe that you can have three eagles yet (only 2 duplicate rare choices till 3k grand army, right?) You could put those points into something else.
IMHO this is your best list so far. Here's a hint- okkams mind razor helps diminish the 'rubber lance' syndrome. S8 will deal with pretty much anything in the game, even the new Nagash (which you can't even take until 4k so you won't have to worry about it.) Even if your opponent dispels it you can go for some of shadow's other great hexes (i.e. lower their toughness, not as effective but same idea as okkams)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Haha, yes, not tinanic lol

I thought High Elves could take more multiples than other races?

And yes, the tough reducing spell in the lore helps with the same problem
 

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I like running my cav units in 2 ranks x 3 files or 3x3 formation... Everyone hits, unit is very maneuverable and the smaller frontage means less attacks back. Instead of 5 DP you might want to go with 2 units of 6 or 1 unit of 9. Your rank bonuses are meaningless in a cav attack... build to maximize wounds on contact.

Cav rely on combined arms to be effective... pin a target down with a meaty block of infantry and smash into the flank with lances.
 

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I like running my cav units in 2 ranks x 3 files or 3x3 formation... Everyone hits, unit is very maneuverable and the smaller frontage means less attacks back.
It's an option for HE, but it was a bit of a fad. 3x3 does give you full attacks, but you're still going to eat lots of attacks back. You have a 75mm frontage, and you have to try to maximize when you charge. You'll still get hit by five 20/25mm bases, which is still a full rank of enemy models. Yeah, it's helpful against people with 6+ frontage, but you're giving up ranks to do it.
Generally, there are two things that will drive me to 3x3. Firstly, if I'm trying to bunker a character in the middle of the second rank, "Damsel Style". Secondly, if I drop to 9 or fewer models in the regiment I might consider it.


Instead of 5 DP you might want to go with 2 units of 6 or 1 unit of 9.
2 units of 6 yes, but never a single big block of Princes. Especially if by "one unit of 9" you are talking about going 3x3. The only advantage to Dragon Princes is the +1A, 6+ Ward, and the situational 2++ against Fire. You lose the biggest and costliest advantage (+1A) in every rank after the first, so the price of Dragon Princes is very high per extra rank. Better to take Silvers and count them towards your Core if you want to fight in more ranks. Princes do make a halfway decent Deathstar if you're worried about Lore of Metal (they get their ward against the Flaming wounds inflicted by Metal spells), but they are much better as small regiments designed to get a few extra wounds onto the enemy. If you're going to field ranks - be they 3 or 5+ wide - you don't take Dragon Princes.

Your rank bonuses are meaningless in a cav attack... build to maximize wounds on contact.
Not if you're in an all-Cav list. You need ranks. You can cause 200 Wounds and suffer none in return, but if there are at least 5 models left in the enemy regiment, he's Steadfast and not going anywhere. This is why I usually field my Silver Helms in large regiments if I go all-cav. They provide the ranks and the wounds, and the Dragon Princes (if they're even present) add a little bit of extra 'oomph' on the charge.

Cav rely on combined arms to be effective... pin a target down with a meaty block of infantry and smash into the flank with lances.
This I agree on, and this is why most of the responses have been to try and dissuade the OP from running a full-cav army in a tournament setting. Cav armies can work, but they're not meant to go up against the wide variety of durably opponents that you'll see in a competitive event. Cav armies can destroy Dark Elves, I've seen it. They're going to fall to pieces against Daemons and Undead though. That's not a good way to handle a tournament - you don't want to show up with auto-loss opponents built into your roster.
 

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Hi there not sure if i am repeating anything but list looks good i would drop bolts on sky cutters i have used them for chalf before without bolt as cheap as 5 reavers with bows better armour more surviveable than eagles and reavers better danage output they are a handy unit just don't take the bolt you won't hit anything.

I like your silvers 15 is good 18 is better you need to try keep those few ranks you have to help win combat i wouldn't stick the wizard in the silvers 2 risky in my eyes. I find the best way to run dragon princes is 7 wide with a standard i use them to hit the front and silvers in the side. Silvers for me are better than DP any day of the week, cost wise you can have more than DP, sure you get some cool little bonues with DP but fighting in 3 ranks helps alot more and 15 str 5 attacks on the charge is handy.

I have come to appritate shadow alot more in cav lists if you have the points for a level 2 beast by all means but you waste your level 4 taking beasts.

well thats my 2 cents in a high elf cav force i often feel its better to go core crazy.
 
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