Librarium Online Forums banner
1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
The deep down truth
Joined
·
5,714 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
2000pt evolution: Response to recent 5th codex releases

In response to the recent Nid codex release and to a lesser degree the Space Wolves and IG, I have been working on my 2000pt list. Here is what I have come up with.

HQ

Shas'El
Plasma, Missile Pod, Targeting array, HW multi tracker, BK 102pts
Bodyguard squad
2 x Bodyguard with Plasma, MP, TA and HW multi 164pts

Shas’El
Plasma, Missile pod, Targeting array, HW multi tracker 97pts (attached to FK elite squad)


Elites

Fireknife squad
2 x XV8 with Plasma, Missile Pod, Multi (Team leader has TA and HW multi)
139pts

Deathrain squad
2 x XV8 with twin linked Missile Pod, Targeting array
106pts

Torch squad
3 x XV8's with twin linked Flamers, Missile Pod
129pts

Troops

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

Fast attack

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

Piranha
x 2 with DP's and Fusion 140pts total

Heavy support

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

Skyray
Burst cannons, Targeting array, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
155pts

2000pts

The HQ and elites have been created to offer a balance of offensive output against a variety of enemy types.

The list has:

Rapid fire range:

4 BS5 Plasma/MP shots a turn
6 BS4 Plasma/MP shots a turn
2 BS3 Plasma/MP shots a turn

In addition it has four BS4 twin linked Missile pod shots and 6 BS3 Missile pod shots per turn, the six BS3 MP’s will usually be firing at BS5 due to the markerlights. So all in all this list can put out 22 MP shots a turn. This can hit with 12 Plasma shots a turn (rapid fire) most with superior BS and if needed I can up them all to BS5. If your going to have Plasma you need to ensure it hits because it is to costly to take otherwise..

In addition it has two Railguns (usually firing at BS5) and the Seeker missiles.

The Torch squad is useful against low toughness/low save infantry type units but has the MP’s to add long range firepower and I wanted to make it cheap enough to not be bothered if it dies when using Flamers. Anyone who believes we do not need the ability to kill lots of gribblies and negate cover is living in cloud cuckoo land and twin linked Flamers excel at it.

The Fireknife squads will benefit from the improved leadership of the Shas’Els.

I still have two Piranhas and two Kroot squads along with two FW squads in Devilfish. I had to knock down the FW squads to minimum size but I can live with that to take the Plasma. The FW/DF units will be there to hold or contest/objectives, which is the reason the DF have the Flechettes. The FW’s will be staying in the DF as much as possible.

I considered the XV88 unit but to be honest I just think they are to vulnerable to the faster armies coming out now. I don’t usually struggle without them so I would rather have the extra ML help.

I like this list it has everything needed to handle pretty much anything. It has Plasma galore, a ridiculous amount of Missile pods, Railguns, plenty of ML support, blockading units (Kroot, Piranhas and DF) and is a mobile mech list.

Opinions please.
 

·
I am a free man!
Joined
·
4,941 Posts
IMHO, this is the best list you've yet made. I have only two things I would change were I you.

* Replace the skyray with a unit of broadsides. It's not that I don't like the skyray, it's just that broadsides are absolutely critical for efficient destruction of AV 13 and AV 14 targets. Just two railguns isn't enough. (And they're also handy for wounds on MCs, of course. ;) ) And the fact that your only railguns are also on vehicles means it's relatively easy for a canny opponent to just glance the vehicle to keep your from shooting them for a turn. Having some railguns that hit more reliably than the hammerhead AND that are on resilient infantry gives you more redundancy in that role. The broadsides' SMS also gives you anti-infantry power akin to the railhead's submunition, so the unit is still dual-purpose.

* I'm still not sold on the "torch" unit. :( It's not that it doesn't perform as you say, it's just that to do so incurs unacceptable risk, IMHO. If you're that close, you have to be DARN sure you can eliminate your target AND that nothing else is in range to decimate you. My own experimentation with your own list demonstrated that to me quite clearly. It's also specialized in such a way as to not be even as useful as a deathrain against common variants of at least two of the armies (SWs, Tyranids) that you state have inspired the refactoring of your list.

Personally, I think you'd get more mileage, especially for all-comers, out of dropping the torches and replacing with bog-standard fireknives.

These changes could be paid for like so...

HQ

Shas'El
Plasma, Missile Pod, HW multi tracker, 87 pts
1x bodyguard, Plasma, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW multi tracker, 82 pts
169 pts

Shas’El
Plasma, Missile pod, HW multi tracker, 87 pts
1x bodyguard, Plasma, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW multi tracker, 82 pts
169 pts

Elites

Fireknife squad
3 x XV8 with Plasma, Missile Pod, Multi
186 pts

Fireknife squad
3 x XV8 with Plasma, Missile Pod, Multi
186 pts

Deathrain squad
2 x XV8 with twin linked Missile Pod, Targeting array
106pts

Troops

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

Fast attack

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

Piranha
x 2 with DP's and Fusion 140pts total

Heavy support

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

2 Broadsides, ASS, team leader, 2 shield drones
195 pts

Total: 1999 pts


Gives you 10 fireknives instead of just 6 (and one additional crisis suit overall compared to your initial list), and you still have 4 of them at BS 4. You've also distributed your fireknife capability across 4 units instead of just 2. And, of course, you've got the broadsides as well giving you added anti-armour/MC insurance.

In fact, this list is better than my own standard list in some respects. :) I may have to rejigger my own now....
 

·
The deep down truth
Joined
·
5,714 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
2000pt evolution: Respsonse to recent 5th codex releases

IMHO, this is the best list you've yet made. I have only two things I would change were I you.

* Replace the skyray with a unit of broadsides. It's not that I don't like the skyray, it's just that broadsides are absolutely critical for efficient destruction of AV 13 and AV 14 targets. Just two railguns isn't enough. (And they're also handy for wounds on MCs, of course. ;) ) And the fact that your only railguns are also on vehicles means it's relatively easy for a canny opponent to just glance the vehicle to keep your from shooting them for a turn. Having some railguns that hit more reliably than the hammerhead AND that are on resilient infantry gives you more redundancy in that role. The broadsides' SMS also gives you anti-infantry power akin to the railhead's submunition, so the unit is still dual-purpose.

* I'm still not sold on the "torch" unit. :( It's not that it doesn't perform as you say, it's just that to do so incurs unacceptable risk, IMHO. If you're that close, you have to be DARN sure you can eliminate your target AND that nothing else is in range to decimate you. My own experimentation with your own list demonstrated that to me quite clearly. It's also specialized in such a way as to not be even as useful as a deathrain against common variants of at least two of the armies (SWs, Tyranids) that you state have inspired the refactoring of your list.

Personally, I think you'd get more mileage, especially for all-comers, out of dropping the torches and replacing with bog-standard fireknives.

These changes could be paid for like so...

HQ

Shas'El
Plasma, Missile Pod, HW multi tracker, 87 pts
1x bodyguard, Plasma, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW multi tracker, 82 pts
169 pts

Shas’El
Plasma, Missile pod, HW multi tracker, 87 pts
1x bodyguard, Plasma, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW multi tracker, 82 pts
169 pts

Elites

Fireknife squad
3 x XV8 with Plasma, Missile Pod, Multi
186 pts

Fireknife squad
3 x XV8 with Plasma, Missile Pod, Multi
186 pts

Deathrain squad
2 x XV8 with twin linked Missile Pod, Targeting array
106pts

Troops

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

Fast attack

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

Piranha
x 2 with DP's and Fusion 140pts total

Heavy support

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

2 Broadsides, ASS, team leader, 2 shield drones
195 pts

Total: 1999 pts


Gives you 10 fireknives instead of just 6 (and one additional crisis suit overall compared to your initial list), and you still have 4 of them at BS 4. You've also distributed your fireknife capability across 4 units instead of just 2. And, of course, you've got the broadsides as well giving you added anti-armour/MC insurance.

In fact, this list is better than my own standard list in some respects. :) I may have to rejigger my own now....
Funny thing is I think the list you posted with the extra PF units and four troops choices is the best list you have come up with up to now. I actuallt think we are all slowly evolving the optimum list. Now to your comments.

The thing is I do not want 10 FK's if 6 of them are BS3. Some figures for you (mathhammer I know but whatever):
All my FK units will do 6.95 Plasma kills (lets round this to 7) a turn
Your 10 FK's will kill on average 9 with their Plasma. Slightly better but there are some issues. Now true you can hit 4 units a turn with the Plasma, but (and it as an important but) each unit of elite FK's will only deal out 2.5 Plasma kills per turn without ML support. My elite/HQ unit will deal out 4 Plasma kills, you need to use an ML squad to raise the elite FK to BS5 to get near that (4.16).
The other issue is points your FK/HQ combo costs 710pts mine costs 502pts. You are paying 78pts per kill I am paying 72.

My HQ/BG FK unit is even better and I know I can hit a target with that unit on its own with no ML support and be sure it will do what it is supposed to do.
You have some problems, you have two BS4 HQ and each has one BG, these units do not have enough firepower on their own to reliably damage a target unit. The same applies to the elites, what this means is you either have to combine two units firepower or use ML's to up the elites damage potential. This is not an efficient use of resources, your synergy lacks.

It is quite obvious you do not have the expereince with ML's. Take my list for instance. I have three ML sources which can target four units a turn.

I have two Fireknife units that do not need ML support to perform.
I have a Deathrain unit that does not need Ml support.

This leaves me with the Torch squad, the Hammerhead squad and the Piranhas all of which benefit from ML support. So ALL my list is efficeint not just the XV's.

The Skyray has two ML's that can split fire, I usually use these to boost the Hammerheads firepower. If you actually believe a BS4 HH is optimised then you live in lucky dice roll land. HH's have one shot per turn and in a 6 turn games that BS4 means 2 misses, that is unacceptable also subs scatter and BS5 makes a difference. The Skyray also has 6 STR8 Seeker missiles that can be called by spare Ml tokens (very handy if say the Torch unit fails to pop a transport).

The Torch squad will be hitting at BS5 with its MP's for the first couple of turns and that is as good as or better than a 3 man BS3 Deathrain unit, I can do this because my FK units are not leaching the ML support to up thier inefficient firepower.

So I am using my ML's efficiently, my synergy is optimised. I am not boosting any unit at the expense of another.

Take for instance a two Landraider list, I can ML both Landraiders with my two Pathfinder teams. I will usually get 3 hits. My HH's hit on BS5 and if they do not do the job I can send four Seekers to try to damage them 'OR' I can use two ML tokens to up the Piranhas BS and pop a LR with a Fusion. You have a slightly better chance of damaging the Landraiders with your HH's and XV88's but to optimise you need to use your ML units to optimise the HH's. When you do that your elite FK units are at their less than efficient BS3 level (remember there are still other enemy units on the table besides the LR's), my FK's are still just as efficient (synergy).

The other boost I have is inherent Missile pod accuracy. Probably the best weapon we have is the MP, it is our best means of stopping transports etc and I have the means to deliver 22 shots per turn with way better hit rates than your set up because I have set up the elites and HQ XV8's to work without ML support. The list is built to enable the Torch squad to work at peak efficiency with their MP's.
If I do not need to use all the ML's to up BS, I can use them to strip cover saves and launch the Skyrays Seekers. If you want your elite FK's MP's to work effieciently you have to devote your entire ML support to that task.

The Torch squad is optimised against SW's and Tyranids, it has the ability to drop MP shots at range with that ML support I mentioned upping it to BS5 the majority of the time. Even if it does not for some reason get ML support it is 'exactly' as efficient as your bog standard Fireknife MP's. The twin linked Flamers are evil against the smaller Nid units (Hormies/Tamrs/Gargs etc) which is what they are there for.

Bit unsure as to how a Deathrain unit is better against Nids than the Torch and anyway I have a Deathrian unit (and a more effcient one at that) plus FK units that deal as much damage as your 10 FK's. However I also have the remaining two ML units that can boost the rest of my army.
Synergy, mmm I think I have synergy in spades.

The difference between you and I as a player is I can see beyond elite BS3 massed Fireknives. You keep stressing to us that BS3 FK's are not an issue but sorry they are. My list above works better because the majority of the XV8 units do not need any support.
My units are big enough to reliably damage targets on their own without ML support, this is something that cannot be said of the list you put forward.
The way I see it your somewhat obsessive tunnel vision regarding BS3 massed FK squads prevents you from actually optimising the synergy of your lists.

As for the XV88 well it is easier to stop XV88's in 5th than it is to stop vehicles. Good luck keeping the XV88 working against SW cav or any decent Nid list. Always found XV88's to be an expensive liability and that has not changed (and yes I have tried using them in 4th and 5th). I would rather have the Skyray with its ability to improve other units AND add 6 STR8 shots.

I think the Nid codex release has done we as Tau players a favour because as I see it some better lists are appearing. Just shows how we should never stop thinking or discussing list builds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
730 Posts
why the extra shas'el and i dont know if id take a skyray. i mostly only use them when flyers are involved. also @ zodiac, i use 4 squads of 12 and no kroot so i dont know.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
725 Posts
Why the lack of Flechettes on the Piranhas? Especialy for the nid/orc lists out there? I am probably looking at running this list next monday agaist a SM/Chaos team to see how it does. In a take all comers list though I would probably look to get the flechettes in there somewhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Why the lack of Flechettes on the Piranhas? Especialy for the nid/orc lists out there? I am probably looking at running this list next monday agaist a SM/Chaos team to see how it does. In a take all comers list though I would probably look to get the flechettes in there somewhere.
Well against orks flechettes usually aren;t very necessary since orks are an army Tau usually kick ass against. And i personally don't see the need of flechettes even on the devilfish in this list; I would personally bond the pathfinder teams instead. I always use teams of 5 pathfinders bonded simply because its a small unit thats VERY survivable; being five pathfinders, it is the lowest number of models you can put in a squad to still make 2 dead models 25% of the unit for panic checks after shooting. And since it IS such a small unit, the bonding knife lets you rally even if you've lost three or four members of the squad. Which one or two more ML shots can help tremendously, more so than flechettes on the DF I feel.
 

·
The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss
Joined
·
2,841 Posts
The only query I would raise with the list is the use of the single Shas'el. Your Command unit has no Invulnerable Save protection; using 60 of his 97pts would equip you with a sizeable amount of said protection. It also leaves you with 37pts to play with. With those points you *could* invest in a 'Ui + BK for both Pathfinder squads.

You could of course use 90/97pts and give each of the XV8s 2 SDs, but that's overdoing it and it's not a Farsight Bomb.

Reasoning behind ultra-high security detail (SDs!) for the Boss and Gang: you mentioned Nids and SW in particular, and we have the Blood Angels on the horizon too. All very fast, with Outflanker units available too. Unprotected units die horribly quickly to these units. Adding extra wounds and the all-important Invulnerable saves to your Command unit should keep it alive somewhat longer!

Just my $.02.

E.
 

·
The deep down truth
Joined
·
5,714 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
HQ

Shas'El
Plasma, Missile Pod, Targeting array, HW multi tracker 97pts
Bodyguard squad
2 x Bodyguard with Plasma, MP, TA and HW multi 164pts

Shas’El
Plasma, Missile pod, Targeting array, HW multi tracker 97pts (attached to FK elite squad)


Elites

Fireknife squad
2 x XV8 with Plasma, Missile Pod, Multi (Team leader has TA and HW multi)
139pts

Deathrain squad
2 x XV8 with twin linked Missile Pod, Targeting array
106pts

Torch squad
3 x XV8's with twin linked Flamers, Missile Pod
129pts

Troops

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

6 Fire Warriors (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
60pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

10 Kroot and 4 Kroot hounds
94pts

Fast attack

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod and multi
95pts

5 Pathfinders
60pts
Devilfish with Disruption Pod and multi
95pts

Piranha
x 2 with DP's and Fusion 140pts total

Heavy support

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

2 X Broadside battlesuits
1 x Xv88 team leader with A'S'S, HW Drone controller and Shield Drone
1 X XV88 with A'S'S 180pts

2000pts

I created this variation to offer a list for those who like the XV88. It offers two more Railguns for the loss of the Skyray. This means the Pathfinders will be more relied upon to provide ML's for more units but the Hammerheads are less relied upon to do anti armour so it is swings and roundabouts. The other loss is of course the Flechettes on the Devilfish but this can be lived with. I would be happy taking either of the lists against any opponent but the XV88 obviously offers more Railguns for those who like the security they offer.
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top