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Benevolent Dictator
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey there - I came up against this list in a recent game that I had, and it demolished my WoC army. The guy playing it was pretty cool, and gave me his Armybuilder sheet after the match, so I could take a look at his handiwork. I assume this means that he's alright with me sharing his list with a wider audience, as he says that he doesn't use this army in any actual tournaments (although I really don't see why not). Anyways, here's the army and some notes on how he used it.

Empire Grand Master - 259
w/ Shield, Glittering Scales, Ogre Blade

Wizard Lord (Lv4, Metal) – 285
w/ Book of Ashur, Opal Amulet

Captain of the Empire (BSBearer) – 193
Imperial Pegasus (Iron hard hooves), Full Plate, Shield, White Cloak of Ulric
I'll point out now that there's some dispute as to legal base-sizes for an Imperial Pegasus. The only Peg model the Empire has, is Balthasar Gelt on a 40mm base. The Dark Elf peg is a 50mm base (which he used for the conversion). We played at a GW store, and even when questioned, they were fine with the 50mm base, since "that's what the DE Peg came with."
Warrior Priest – 123
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, Greatweapon, Crown of Command

13 Inner Circle Knights - 395
Full Command, Lichebone Pennant

10 Handgunners
10 Handgunners

12 Archers – 104
Musician, Standard Bearer

10 Outriders – 230
Barding, Musician

10 Outriders – 230
Barding, Musician

STank
STank

Total: 2499/2500
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The Grandmaster, BSB, and the Priest all go into the Knights, who are fielded 6-wide. The 50mm base on the BSB lets him displace 2 models, the Grandmaster displaces 1, and the Command pushes the Priest into the back rank. The deployment for the front rank was
Muso|Champ|BSB|GMaster|Standard
Meaning that the maximum number of models would be in contact with the BSB and his White Cloak's -1 To Hit, and the Grand Master would benefit nicely from most of his foes needing a 6+ to hit him.

The "Knight Bus" has a 6+ Ward against Magic, plus Hatred from the Priest (Knights only), Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, and Hold the Line. They also benefit from the Priest's prayers, which can include rerolls to Wound, a 5+ Wardsave, or Flaming Attacks.

The Wizard joins the Archers, and generally hangs around behind the army. The infinite free-reforms with the skirmishers means that he's virtually moving around solo when it comes to line of sight and such. The -1 to Hit with ranged is good, especially when they're sheltered behind the gunners for an additional -2 for Cover.

The Outriders are obviously there for the fact that they're a better shooting option than anything in Core, getting triple the shots of Handgunners with the same accuracy and a 4+ save.

Dual Stanks is obviously nasty enough.

The only thing that I might change would be upgrading the Handgunners to Crossbowmen, for the extra range.

Blood and Glory is the scariest mission type for this army, and it's the one that we played. However, it's worth pointing out that the enemy is forced to go after the Knight-bus, and either kill the General or the BSB and whole unit. It's the only way that they'll win, and believe me when I tell you from experience that it is very hard to do. I was only able to have a shot at success, when I used Doom and Darkness on him. When it didn't work, he quickly beat me into a pulp.
 

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I think GW aren't too bothered about base sizes, within reason. I think the recent 32mm bases in 40k made this quite clear, but looks like it's true for Fantasy too (I don't think they ever changed the points on things that have changed base size). Hopefully they don't think that round bases are a similarly immaterial change.
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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Discussion Starter #3
Yeah, they tend to let it slide. I caught flak once for having my Banner and Champion on the same 40mm base. I guess the rule is that any "fillers" have to have display a "comparable fighting force" to the models they displace. The GW example is using a suitably converted Troll to replace 4 Night Goblins. Since I only had 2 models where 4 should be standing, that was in the wrong. Easy fix (as I have separate Banner/Champ models for that unit in case one dies), and it was really just a warning. I've never heard anything about it again.

Think the list should work though?
 

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I'm admittedly newer to this, but I think a HE army could answer this fairly well. Admittedly, there would be many shots coming from the back lines which could cause issues, and the Inner Circle knights certainly aren't a joke, but 13 is not a huge number of knights. Assuming the ward save is dispelled, I suspect the Knights could be whittled down easily enough so that a charging unit could win combat or be Steadfast.

As a whole army though... it looks like something that would be an interesting fight! I'd like to play this battle out actually. You aren't in the Northeast by any chance, are you? Or should I try to convince my empire playing friend to run this list?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The only thing that High Elves will stop those Knights with, would be White Lions, maybe Swordmasters. What you have to remembers is that 2/3 of the frontage of that unit is made from a Captain that you can only hit on 5's, a Champ that you can only hit on 4's (while the Cpt's alive) and a Grandmaster that you can only hit on 6's.

So theoretically, if you have say, 24 Lions and you form them up 8-wide for maximum contact, you're looking at:
GrandMaster 4A = 2.22 kills
Captain (simultaneous w/ Lions) 3A = .83 kills

Your best case scenario for the Lions is that your front rank is:
4 guys vs. Knights (3+)
1 guy vs. Champ (4+)
2 guys vs. Cpt (5+)
1 guy vs. Master (6+)

Removing the casualties from the side with the Cpt+Master on it so that you keep your best odds, and using Martial Prowess for the 3 fighting ranks, we've got:

12A vs. Knights (3+) = 3.33 kills
3A vs. Champ (4+) = .625 kills*
6-1.22A vs. Cpt (5+) = .59w
3-1A vs. Master (6+) = .13w
Total: 4.67w
*when forced to target the Champion (because he is hit on 6+ and not a "rank and file") any additional wounds inflicted will not spill to the unit, so the maximum damage you can inflict while he is alive is just 1W for your 3A.

8 Knights w/ Champ (4+, hatred) 9A = 5.625kills
Priest (4+, Hatred) 1A = .625kills
4 Horses, 4A = .67w
Pegasus, 2A = .55w
Stomp (reroll to Wound) = .74w

Combat resolution:
Knights: 9.9w + 1 Charge +1 Banner +1BSB +1 Rank... 13.9
W Lions: 4.67w + 1 Banner + 1 Rank......................... 6.67

Yes, the Lions are Stubborn. Yes, it's possible that the Knights didn't Charge, if they were properly chaffed/intercepted (which is hard, given how much shooting the Empire has) and yes, it's possible that they were whittled down with shooting or magic. It's also worth pointing out that the Knight regiment and it's characters is going to run 970pts (actually quite cheap for a 'Deathstar' at 2500pts), so it's entirely possible that you could be meeting that regiment with a Character and a few more Lions in the regiment, possibly with the Banner of the World Dragon to shut down the S7 Grand Master.
But it's also worth pointing out that it could have been a lot worse for the Lions as well. Starting with the fact that if the Knights were just a few more millimeters to one side, it would have been 2 models in contact with the Master and only 2 models who could swing at the "regular" Knights. If the Knights issued a challenge with the Captain, it would also cut down on quite a few attacks and make it very unlikely that he would die. Moreover, the entire regiment could possibly benefit from a 5+ Ward and/or could be allowed to reroll failed To Wounds. Not to mention the fact that with 80 outbound Handgun shots per turn, there's a high likelihood that the Empire player could single out the Lions as the only real threat, and pull them off the table very quickly.

I went up against this list with my Warriors of Chaos army, and I couldn't put a dent in that Knight block. Granted, it wasn't the best fight for me, as I made a huge mistake and let the Knights get the charge against two of the units which could have probably put them on ice. I did manage to flank them with a bunch of halberd-swinging Chaos Warriors, and even that didn't really phase them. When I say that this Empire list is hard to swallow, I really mean it.

As a whole army though... it looks like something that would be an interesting fight! I'd like to play this battle out actually. You aren't in the Northeast by any chance, are you? Or should I try to convince my empire playing friend to run this list?
North East US? I live near Harrisburg Pennsylvania, actually.
Get your Empire friend to proxy it, and tell me how the game goes - but it's not my fault if he suddenly decides to build the list for real!
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Played this list for myself, and pitted against my friend's Nurgle Daemons army. To get a good idea of exactly how much he's not messing around, his list was:

Epidemius
L1 Herald of Nurgle BSB
21(?) Plague Bearers (Epi here)
24(?) Plague Bearers (BSB here)
4 Beasts of Nurgle
4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Beasts of Nurgle
Soul Grinder of Nurgle
Hellcannon

I'd post up a picture bat-rep, but that would actually be kind of boring as there was very little movement once we got "stuck in". Makes sense, Nurgle is a tar-pit army, and Epi is just there to make them nasty.

Game was 'Meeting Engagement' with the Corner-to-corner deployment. I deployed my army first, with a regiment of Handgunners and Outriders forced to stay in reserve. We were playing with a RoB board, placed so that there was a single, huge hill on my side of the table (I won the roll to pick corner/deploy and took the hill). There were some trees scattered around the board, but nothing that got in our way.
I almost messed up my deployment, when I forgot that it was entirely possible for his to deploy along the short side of the table, far away from me and on my flank. Oops. It nearly stranded my Knights. From left to right I deployed:
STank, Knights (with characters), Archers (with Wizard, behind Knights), Handgunners, Outriders, STank -(the rest is in reserves)
He deployed the Beasts across his front, with the Soul Grinder and Cannon stuffed on the short side in my flank, and then Epi and the BSB deployed in the back corner of his DZ, where I'd have a hard time getting to them.

My STanks didn't cooperate much at all this game, often threatening to blow themselves up during the generation of Steam Points. I got the first turn, and the tank on my right flank generated 4pts (just enough that you cannot blow yourself up) and misfired - he ended up taking 3W and gaining +3pts, so he was sitting at 7 Steam Points. I smashed the tank directly into a regiment of Beasts of Nurgle, for D6+7D3 Impact hits. Very nearly obliterated the regiment.
My magic from the Wizard was also hit-or-miss all game, doing very little to anyone, but the lore itself works nicely. I had a good array of spells, all of which were useful or at least worried my opponent. The Wizard really helped to cinch the game for me, as well, in the last turn.

T2 I was able to get my Knights into melee, and it was awesome, right up until he rolled Snakes on his Instability, and got all of his Wounds back.
The STank on the right flank continued pumeling his Beasts, but he quickly flanked in with the Skull Cannon and Grinder, and the tank was destroyed - although not before it finished off the last Beast in the regiment.

T3 I kept up the assault with the Knights, whittling away at the regiment of Beasts. The other tank was having a failure of a day, either venting off all of its Steam on misfires, or else rolling abysmally low to move towards the fighting. In the shooting phase, I blasted the Skull Cannon with 40 shots from the Outriders and Handgunners who arrived from Reserves on T1, and put it down in a single glorious round of gunpowder glee. There's a regiment of Beasts closing in on my other regiment of Outriders, and they - along with the other Handgunners and Archers - manage to inflict some damage.

T4, and the fighting continues between my Knights and the Beasts. He charges the Beasts into the Outriders, who are barely far enough away for a Stand and Shoot, which ravages the Beasts. The Outriders hold their ground in the melee. The Grinder goes after my other regiment of Outriders, and they fare much worse - fleeing the table, chased over the edge by the Grinder itself.

T5, the battle is still raging between the Knights and Beasts, but on this turn I finally bring him down, and reform to face the other regiment of Beasts who are working on my Outriders. The Outriders are reduced to 2 models and flee, managing to escape the Beasts. The Grinder shows back up on my flank, dangerously close to my Wizard and his unit, and decides to spew some kind of grape-shot at the fleeing Outriders, to finish them off.

T6, the STank finally manages to get some Steam Points and goes rumbling into the flank of the Beasts who've just routed my Outriders. The impacts are more than enough to send the remaining Beasts howling back to the warp. The Knights turn and face the oncoming Plague Bearers, just in case my opponent felt "frisky". Everything else in the army quickly moves to get away from the Grinder, but the Wizard manages to throw the Metal Sig-Spell onto him and finish him off. My opponent waives T6, as the only units he has left are his Plague Bearer regiments with the Herald and Epidemius, and nothing will get them through combat.

The final score for the game was 710VP, to 1130VP - a decent win for the list.
I was thrilled with how well the Knight-star works, he only managed to inflict a single wound on my BSB, and kill 2 Knights. Having to allocate attacks against the front rank, with the General, BSB, and Champion being hit on 5's or 6's is very beneficial. The Priest getting shunted to the second rank is great, and his Greatweapon plus the S7 Ogre Blade on the Grand Master means that the unit has no problem generating attacks in the "off round", allowing me to use Lances instead of Cavalry Hammers for a solid 1+ save. Had he not rolled "Reality Blinked" on the turn that I charged him and regained every wound I inflicted in that round, I think that my Knights would likely have run roughshod over a vast portion of his army.
Deployment really left me feeling a bit lackluster about the tanks, only because I wasn't able to manage my usual tactic of shooting an enemy regiment to pieces before running it over with a pair of lumbering steel behemoths. Getting used to operating the Steam Tanks is also something I need to work on. I rarely fired their main guns, and spent most of the game trying to get them across the table and into contact with something (except the first STank, who crippled himself out of the gates with 3W and I had little choice but use a good turn to slam him into the nearest enemy).

This weekend or early next week I should be going up against some Dark Elves. Whether I bring this list to the table, my High Elves, or my Warriors of Chaos is still a toss. I'd like to bring this army, but I think that the 80 shots/turn might be a touch unfair. I see no problems simply evaporating any of his RXBow regiments in a firestorm of lead early in the game, and then wrecking his units with the Impact Hits coming from the STanks. The Knights will be a bit more risk, but should have no real troubles chopping down whatever 'Death Star' he attempts to bring. He watched this game, and he's of the opinion that his only option to take on the Knight-Star is to hit it with his own Cold One Knights, along with some Special Character (I forget if he's planning on Malus or Malekith, or both).
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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Discussion Starter #7
Played against the Dark Elf player. Made slight modifications to my own list: I dropped the Crown of Command from the Priest and instead fielded an extra Knight, bringing the base-total up to 18 with all characters. I went up against a Dark Elf army, as I said. His list was:

L4 Sorceress (Shadow)
L2 Sorceress (Metal)
Master BSB on Cold One
19 R.Crossbowmen (metal sorc here)
19 R.Crossbowmen (shadow sorc here)
25 Black Guard
9 Cold One Knights (master here)
1 War Hydra
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
10 Warlocks

We set the RoB table up with the big hills on each side. My side of the table had two forests, and he had one slightly off-center of his own deployment zone. We rolled up Battle Line for our scenario, and he gave me the first deployment.

I easily out-deployed him, getting favorable matches across the table. My Outriders stayed on the flanks, one using the forest on my left to screen them - the other using the hill. One unit of handgunners was deployed on my right flank, in the open. The other unit of handgunners was also placed on the right of my army, in the right side forest. A Steam Tank book-ended the right flank. The second STank took the center, with the Knights to it's left, and then my Archers and the Wizard went behind them.
Across from me, he deployed the Crossbows with the L2 on my left flank (across from the Outriders screened by trees) and on his right flank he dropped the other unit of Crossbows (in front of 20 Hangunners and 10 Outriders, plus STank). His center were the COKnights across from my STank, and the Black Guard in front of my Knights. The Warlocks went behind the Hydra, on my right flank - out of sight behind the hill. RBTs went in the right+left corners of the board, on hills.

He won the roll for first turn and went first.

Turn1
He moved his units into range and started to open fire. Wisely, he blasts the Outriders, managing to actually reduce the right-flank unit by about half. His magic slays a Knight.
I would have given the Empire the first turn, since my weapons are Move/Fire and I'd have to close into range of him. Oh well.

With him in range, I use my shooting to start ripping apart the Crossbowmen, little by little. My Outriders on the left flank move into the trees, gaining cover and denying it to him. My Stanks move forward - on the right he screens my flank from the Hydra/Warlocks. To the center, I advance and turn to face the Hydra (opening my flank to the COKnights) and then lob a shot at the Hydra. I do a few wounds to the beast, but he regens all but 1 on the next turn. With my magic, I cast Golden Hounds to draw out dice and put a wound on his Master - most of the damage is "Look Out Sir!"ed onto the other Cold One Knights. Then I belt him with Searing Doom and kill a few more, reducing the unit to 5, he barely holds.

Turn 2
He takes the bait and sends the ColdOne Knights into the flank of my Steam Tank, angled in a such a way that it exposes his flank to my own Knights. In the magic phase he IFs a cast of Okkam's Mind Razor onto the Knights... uh oh. Shooting nearly wipes the right-hand Outriders off the board, but they hold fast. In combat, he drops the STank down to 2 wounds I got so lucky.

I charge my Knights past his Cold Ones and nail the Black Guard head-on. I get lucky and don't blow up my Steam Tank (rolled a 2 on the Arty-die, with no Steam Points generated). My second STank misfires however, and ends up with 7 SteamPoints but takes 3 wounds. I charge it across the table to hit the Knights and bail out it's "brother".
Magic sees me tossing Enchanted Blades of Aiban onto my Knights.
Then I start shooting the Crossbowmen some more, nearly panicking the unit on the right with the L4 sheltered inside.
Combat is a bloodbath, the Cold One Knights are wiped out by D6+7D3 Impact Hits. Then my Knights chop his Black Guard regiment nearly in half, although he puts a wound on both of my front-rank characters.

T3
Hydra charges my Handgunners on the open right flank. Warlocks line up to throw some spells at me. The left-side Crossbows move to within half range of my Outriders.
His magic phase is largely a flop, although he does throw a Searing Doom to finish off my wounded tank.
Shooting reduces the Outriders to 1 model on the right, and cuts the unit in half on the left.
Combat, the Hydra wrecks the Handgunners, as expected. It turns to face my flank. The Knights finish off the Black Guard and turn to face the Crossbows with the L4 inside (right flank).

I charge the Crossbows with my Knights, and he Holds (not sure why he didn't just flee). SteamTank misfires and stalls (can't use the Steam Engine) but lobs a cannon shot at the Bolt Thrower. It falls short. The lone Outrider runs to hide in the trees, while the Handgunners turn to face the Hydra and redirect it into the back field and away from my army.
The Knights kill the entire regiment of Crossbows, but only manage 1W on the Sorceress. She flees and actually manages to escape alive.

T4
Hydra charges the Handgunners. The Sorceress rallies.
The Bolt Throwers and remaining Crossbows finish off all the Outiders on the board.
In combat, the Hydra kills all of the Handgunners, as expected.

My Knights charge the Sorceress, who flees for her life. They redirect onto the Warlocks instead. The Steam Tank turns and charges into the back of the Hydra.
Magic has Aiban onto the Knights again, and the Priest throws his prayer allowing me to reroll failed Wounds.
Shooting is some Archers against the Crossbows, to no real effect.
In combat, the Knights obliterate the Warlocks and run them down. The Hydra is flattened into paste by the charging Steam Tank.

The battle is called. In error, we lost 2 turns somewhere and thought that the game was actually played to completion. Oh well.

End
I'm starting to realize just how horrifying this army actually is. Two Steam Tanks is broken as all get-out, there's no denying it. It was strange though, because the Dark Elves managed to out-shoot me by virtue of getting the first volley and taking down my Outriders (which is where my shooting strength really lies). They successfully wiped out everything that I would expect to "feed" to an opponent - taking down the Handgunners and Outriders, and even one of the STanks. However, they couldn't get the real "meat and potatoes" of the list, which is the Knight Bus and the characters.
That Knight-bus is sickening. There were rounds were I was hitting on 3's (with Hatred) and wounding on 2's (with rerolls), and he could only hit me on 5's and bounced off my 1+ save. The carnage that unit can lay out is just unbelievable. Every charge ended with Elves testing on "Insane Heroism" (except the Stubborn Black Guard, who evaporated in 2 rounds of fighting).
I very nearly tabled his army.

So far, I have seen this army go 3-0 in games. For two of those games, I was at the helm, and in the other game it defeated my own tournament WoC army. It is a nasty, nasty army. There's really no good way to handle it - it can outshoot just about anyone, and the Knights/STanks combined will put an end to just about everyone else.
 

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It's very similar to my empire list only I have 2 units of demi knights in mine and less characters it's a horrible list
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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Discussion Starter #10
Aww man. Okay - that changes it up a bit. I have some apologies to make then. Wouldn't have always made a huge difference, with the alternative being to blast 2D6 S4 attacks into the regiment I'd just hit, but yeah - I'll remember that for next time.

I'm assuming that you run Demis in place of the STanks?
As far as fewer characters goes, I was thinking about it. Especially because I've never really been a fan of the Grand Master. However, he gives the whole unit Immune to Psych, and that's pretty fun. Having Knights come charging at you with Hatred, Immune to Psych, and Hold the Line makes for a very scary regiment. I tossed him in there as a way to get extra characters up front, forcing my Priest to the back and causing my opponent to nominate attacks between three characters, all with at least a -1 to Hit from most angles (easiest to hit the Champ, but then you're wasting attacks that could knock the unit).
 

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Yeah sorry to spoil your fun but a fully charged steam gun can be very effective.

no I take the demis aswell as steam tanks.

I take

Arch lector, Heavy armour, barded stead, great weapon, helm of the skaven slayer (cause fear and thus immune to) cloak of ulric (5++ and -1 to hit) and potion of fool hardiness.

Level 4 wizard light, barded steed, tali of endurance.

Captain, Peg, Full plate, Lance, Enchanted shield, Tali of presivation, BSB

15 Knights of inner circle Full command Banner of discipline great weapons All characters here wizard to second rank 6x3 loss of champ slims to 5 wide to keep wizard in in second rank gives general leadership 10.

12 hand gunners/ crossbows

12 hand gunners/ crossbows

5 outriders musician

5 outriders musician

4 demi knights standard

4 demi Knights standard

steam tank

steam tank

comes in bang on 2500pts.

I don't use this that often as its horrible this list loves light. getting my knights to ws 10 I 10 and asf extra attacks really is crazy good and you need 6's to then hit the arch lector. The demis are attached to the tanks to assist and be horrible it looses 30 shots on your list. The knights are I guess a little less effective than yours and with ony a 2+ don't weather the pain as much as 1+ but they dish it out and then some I haven't had them break yet but I don't think they have lost combat yet.

against nurgle did you use the priests flaming attacks spell against the beasts I love that I have steam rollered regen units because of that :)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Okay - I see what you've done. That list would certainly be evil. Possibly even more ugly than mine. Swapping the Knights to Lances wouldn't be a problem either, if you really did want the 1+ (it's a fight I'm having with myself - they aren't taking many casualties right now as it is - I lost 3 against the Dark Elves and that's the best anyone has done, except when I flanked them with Chaos Warriors)

I did attempt to use the Priests flaiming spell against the Beasts of Nurgle, but my opponent was having none of that, and quickly got rid of it. It's cool though, because my magic phase was able to keep him on his toes. It was especially bad since he only had a L2 to dispel with, so he was already forced to choose which spells to let off. Metal is less useful against Daemons, but I did manage to keep his Skull Cannon and Soul Grinder at bay with the threats of having their saves turned against them. And his choices were always either +1 to Hit for me, reroll Failed Wounds, or get smacked with Flaming Attacks.
 

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It's a horrible horrible list and I only use when I am asked to field something truly competitive in short that list has never lost I think it's drawn once in a club tournament but other than that in 27 matches wins every time.

The light magic is brilliant for this list most opponents will have to hit on 5's with speed of light.

Yeah for him it was important to block that as you would have destroyed that list I think metal is a good lore for empire my shooty empire list takes it. But when u am going to hammer in close combat it's light.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
It's a horrible horrible list and I only use when I am asked to field something truly competitive in short that list has never lost I think it's drawn once in a club tournament but other than that in 27 matches wins every time.
Yeah, it is evil. Three things really spurred me into trying this army;
1) It was already very similar to a list that I was planning to run (College Guard steampunk army)
2) It kicked the snot out of my Chaos Warriors army that I would normally run in tournaments
3) I was cruising the web and saw someone rate Empire as one of the top-tier armies in the game.
Seeing Empire ranked so highly was a real head-scratcher, although admittedly, I hadn't cracked the book open for quite a while. You also don't see very many Empire armies these days, which is a real shame, because I like everything about them and think that a well painted force is gorgeous on the tabletop.
But I'm beginning to suspect that person was right - Empire are nasty, because they have answers to just about everything in the game, all 8 lores on very cheap casters, great buffs to their units from Priests/Lectors and Captains/Generals, and can throw a solid shooting phase at you with decent enough combat options to finish the job.
When opponents comment on my list after the game, they tell me that the only way to beat it is to kill the Knights, and to kill the tanks. You can wipe out practically everything else on the table (like the Dark Elves nearly did) and still lose the game by a wide margin. There were so many times during the Dark Elf game that we all stood around the table wondering what move the DE player could make that wouldn't result in massed carnage. There really weren't any.

Yeah for him it was important to block that as you would have destroyed that list I think metal is a good lore for empire my shooty empire list takes it. But when u am going to hammer in close combat it's light.
I still wrecked that Daemons list, in the end. The other thing is that I do consider this a very "shooty" list, more than a combat one. The Knights don't need much help - I can get a charge where I'm hitting on 3's and rerolling, and hitting on 2's with the characters. I wound most stuff on a 2+ and can reroll that if I want as well. The STanks primary attacks don't roll to hit, so there's little need to buff them up. I considered Shadow, but my army is S4 shooting - it's Armor that gives me the most problems out of anything. And I like that Metal has lots of options to deal direct damage. Final Transmutation is also the most reliably lethal "kill a whole unit" spell out of all 8 lores of magic.
 

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Yeah your list is shooty but doesn't lack for punch up close. I just love demi gryphs lol.

I feel bad about fielding this list so I don't very often.

Metal is definitely the best lore for a shooty empire list I always take it with my shooty list.

You going to Play empire more?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah, no kidding. Although am I right in thinking that it counts as a chariot now, and therefore gets I3 against the Pit and such, and has WS3 in combat (as per the "crew" Engineer)?
It doesn't have all the wonky rules about being immune to magic and "kind of a chariot, kinda not" that it had in the last book.

And yeah - I'll probably play my Empire list a bit more. I was using them as Samurai for the longest time, so I did get some games with straight Empire armies, on occasions that people declined to play against the Nippon book. I want to collect this army though - I have lots of good idea for conversions. Gotta see what happens with 9th though first, and finish up my Chaos army. And "rebuild" my Elves. And finish up my Bret army since I've been eyeballing them too. And maybe my Wood Elves now that they're book isn't terribad. Eventually I'll have to get around to polishing off the Vampire Counts and maybe updating to 'Undead' in general. Plus my O&G if I ever feel like putting 120 gobbos to use. And I've got a Dark Elf army that I bought for a song, and it needs some patching up. I also have this idea rattling around for building either Maori or a Voodoo/West-Indies Ogre army. Lots of projects, not a lot of money...
 

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Yeah I think for things that target characteristics it's the same as a chariot use the highest status at least that's how my club play it.

Yeah I enjoyed your nippon book I had one of my own years ago god knows what I did with it.

I am the same cap I have loads of projects my lists always start at the 1000pts mark as me and the wife do alot of battle brother tournaments. Between us we have every army except orcs and goblins. At the moment I have 4 armies at the 2500+ range dark elves, high elves, lizardmen and empire. I am currently expanding my ogres bret and vamps to 2500pts lots of buying and painting oh wait and my skaven lol.

What I like about empire is you can do just about anything with them in terms of conversion and fluff. My army is one that went to the south lands in search of treasure and found the remains of some lizardmen and now serve them and the god sotek has a very amazon look to it. My steam tanks are steam stegadons my demis are leopards (nice easy conversion saber tusk heads instead of the birds) and my knights just look plain amazing is I do say so myself lol. Problem is I have built so much not painted it though :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Those conversions could make a cool 'Knight's Panther' army, and they're even cannon in the fluff. Never thought of the Sabertusk-Gryph meld, that's pretty awesome. I have two Empire idea rattling, in addition to the Nippon/Empire cross. The first is the College Guard, or Nuln Black Company (fluff from the Tamurkhan book), or else to build a really solid Middenheim/Ulrican army. I want to swap the arms on my Knights for bare marauder arms, and use the Knight arms to make "hammer-men" instead of swordsmen. Plus the usual Cyberwolf-Demis counts-as and so forth. Basically the same list as this one, but much more combat focused - swapping the Handguns to Crossbows, and Outriders to either Swordsmen blocks or Demis, and then the Tanks to either Demis or just MORE STUFF, probably.
 

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My knights of the inner circle have the marauder flail arms I cut the flay off the top and I used lizardmen hand weapons to make the top of the great weapons.

Yeah does look good not painted at the moment but I will try take a pic for you if you want to have a look?

All those armies would be good just try adapting the list your using at the moment see if you can get a feel for something you like. I have always liked the idea of an army of ulric.
 
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