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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is a 2K List, that I have built around a few principles:
  1. Scenario flexibility (high fortutude, garrisoning power).
  2. Distributed risk portfolio (max unit value with character inside is 500pts).
  3. A broad mix of I, MI, MC, with a variety of strengths.
  4. One scary magic phase per game.
  5. No fliers or monsters, it's an 'Awd Skool' style army.

1st Revisions in RED

2nd Revisions in BLUE

3rd Revisions in GREEN

2000pts. Trickster’s List


Lord: 335
Sorcerer Lord [Lore of Slaanesh]

  • Skull of Katam
  • Hideous Visage
  • Scaly Skin
  • Charmed Shield
His job is to be near the front, but ideally not in CC unless absolutely needed. On a weak Winds of Magic, he will use the Skull to create an opponent's nightmare. Changed to Slaanesh because it's flexible and low spell costs, even though he is the general he works nicely with Skull, and the rest of the list is pretty self-reliant anyway.

BSB: 205

Exalted of Tzeentch

  • Enchanted Shield
  • Tal. Preservation
  • Third Eye
I'm happy to have him tied up in challenges, he's built to survive, like his unit.

Core: 587

5 Warhounds with vanguard

5 Warhounds with vanguard

17 Tzeentch Warriors (BSB goes here)

  • Musician/Standard
  • Shields
  • Banner of Discipline
17 Slaanesh Marauders (Lord goes here)
  • Full Command
  • Flails
Special: 536
12 Slaanesh Ogres

  • Musician/Standard
  • Great Weapons
A reliable wound bus, because sometimes you just need some S7 impact hits.

Rare: 337

4 Skullcrushers

  • Musician/Standard
  • Ensorcelled Weapons
  • Gleaming Pennant
Total: 2000

Fortitude: 7
Drops: 6

Most of the list is pretty stable in terms of deployment and leadership, with the exception of the Skullcrushers, but even then they have gleaming pennant).
 

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I like Ogres, even though most people think Trolls are better. But do you really find a 3x4 formation worthwhile? I'd have thought you're paying too much for those extra ranks really - and they break your 'max unit value 500' rule too!

I'd be tempted to give at least one unit of dogs vanguard, if you can find the points somewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Kinda depends on the on the terrain, 4x3 is also good, but Skullcrushers are 4-already wide.

The 500-point rule is kind of a guideline for me so I don't lose more than a 1/4 of my army to some stupid magic or cannonball.

I could drop a unit of hounds to give the other two vanguard and my BSB Soul Feeder.

Revisions in RED.
 

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Also pretty sure ASL and ASF simply cancel each other, making the model swing in initiative, so elves would still swing before ogres, just not reroll misses, which is nice I suppose. My main nemesis plays dark elves and I have found the Slaanesh lore, which is usually good, underwhelming vs ASF and high Ld.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Also pretty sure ASL and ASF simply cancel each other, making the model swing in initiative, so elves would still swing before ogres, just not reroll misses, which is nice I suppose. My main nemesis plays dark elves and I have found the Slaanesh lore, which is usually good, underwhelming vs ASF and high Ld.
Yep, you are right (p.66 BRB they cancel out so it's initiative based). What would you suggest then as an all-comers Lore?
 

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Oh hey don't get me wrong, I love my Princes both Slaanesh or Nurgle, both great lores. Choir hurts everything, and Choir bombing turn 2 will ruin anybody's day. It's just the support spells that tend to fall by the wayside against ASF and/or high Ld.

I would say that Nurgle or shadow are probably the best all-comers lores. Lowering T is almost always a good thing, especially in conjunction with T tests. Death is also good, but requires a low Init opponent or monster mash to really shine, otherwise you're just fishing for snipes all game. Also a huge fan of the ruby ring on a level 2 to give chaff something to think about.
 

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Also, the frenzy spell is nasty. You can throw it on an enemy block after angle screwing them with dogs 1" away. It's fun to use your opponent's anti-crusher techniques against them.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Death is my favorite Lore, but for different reasons:
1. Purple Sun is always good if your opponent has brought war machines.
2. Soulblight is the best hex in the game for CC.

The idea was to use Trickster's and throw a few sniper spells. Even dispelling there is a risk of taking a wound, but almost all the sniper spells need 3 dice for targets beyond 12"+. If I get a good Winds of Magic during turn 1 or 2, it's largely wasted against elves.

Slaanesh on the other hand has Pavane with is dirt cheap for 7 points, has 24" range and can pretty reliably do a wound. Even at long range I can Acquiescence key units (like cavalry or even chaff) at a very low spell cost.

For close combat Phantasmagoria is like Doom & Darkness, but it's NOT a RIP spell.

The thing about Trickster's Shard if that it works best on Lores which have low casting values:
CHEAP
Tzeentch (if I could get Glean Magic this would be as option)
Slaanesh
Fire (with Ruby Ring)
AVERAGE
Nurgle
Metal
Death (Purple Sun for more dice)
EXPENSIVE
Shadow

So basically it's a toss up between Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Fire.

Now thinking about it, the unit will be near the BSB, but trying to avoid combat. That could be a Tzeentch with shields unit 5-wide. What would also be nice is rolling a 6 for the attribute with so many small spells & trickster's shard.

Revisions in BLUE.
 

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One other thing I'd throw out there... the only reason I take Ogres over trolls is if I can't get the trolls reliable Ld presence for stupidity or if I need another blood and glory banner. But you already have 7 fortitude and a footslogging general... you might just want to switch the ogres to trolls. Hell, that switch alone nets you almost enough points for a gorebeast.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Not interested in using Trolls, it's too crowded with the BSB & General needing to be close to each other already.

I think you underestimate Slaanesh Ogres a lot:
  • They are reliable until broken in combat
  • They are especially effective against T5-6 Monsters
  • Impact hits hurt everything
 

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I don't think they're bad, I just think they're worse than trolls, unless you need a banner or Str 6 specifically.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I don't think they're bad, I just think they're worse than trolls, unless you need a banner or Str 6 specifically.
Well, let me put this another way; S6 matters against anything from T4 to T7, that's a lot of armies. Even elves need S6 sometimes with the Frostheart Pheonix causing ASL and -1S. The banner is nice, but the real secret is Slaanesh. MI immune to panic, fear, terror with no stupidity tests means they can work independently of characters (which are not cheap for WoC!) anywhere on the table.

Trolls are famously tough & deadly with regenerate and S5 auto-hit vomit/stomp, but an Ogre train is scary in other ways. If you get a bull-charge 4x3 that's 4d3 S6 hits before a A-Bom can so much as fart!
 

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Str6 definitely matters, but it's not always better than Str5 no armor, and since the ogres with their high Str are generally running can opener or monster duty, I'd take Str5 no armor over Str6 for can opening. Monsters, the ogres win out.

The ITP is a wash, the trolls need babysitting though as a weakness. Ogres also get a banner.

But at the end of the day, they're both realistically striking last, so if you plan on using them to counter high Str cav, they need to live through the combat round, so a large block of ogres is necessary. Ogres also need the charge to be optimal. Trolls have a 4+ against any Str though, monsters, lances, whatever, so you'll have a lot more trolls around after the opponent swings. You're losing double the ogres against Str 5 enemies. Double.

Also, Ogres get one impact hit per column unless you roll a 10+, and the Str is awful unless you have 12 ogres or so. Realistically it's more like 3-4 Str 5 hits. And the trolls are like 15% cheaper.

TLDR:
Ogres advantages: Monsters, no babysitting, large blocks are effective with charge, banner
Troll advantages: Can opening, survivability, cost, small blocks are more resilient

To me it seems like ogres are best in large games where babysitting is questionable and you have the points to run 12 of them. Trolls seem to be better suited to smaller games with a general on foot when you only have the points for 4-6 MI. Your list is on the fence between those game sizes, so both choices are legit.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yeah, that sounds about right for the unit sizes, although I have run a Troll Horde list several times.

I'm redoing the mage I think:

Sorcerer Lord
  • level 4
  • MoS
  • Skull of Katam
  • Charmed Shield
  • Opal Amulet

Losing leadership isn't a big deal for this list, I just need to make sure he doesn't kill himself.

Revisions in GREEN.
 

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Troll hordes are great when they're core, then you can run as many as you like.
 
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