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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Let the battle Commence!

PLEASE NOTE: All board edges and turn orders will be determined randomly!

This will be a Gamma level secure and control mission using the infiltrate, deepstrike, and victory point special rules. Tossy will have the north edge and the second turn while Rabbit will have the south edge and the first turn.



In the red corner weighing in at an impressive 2k pts, 61 bodies, and 9 pieces of armor is the host with the most, TOSSY!

HQ

Cannoness - 135
inferno pistol
evisirator
cloak of st aspira
jump pack
Book of st lucious

Elites

DH INQUISITOR - 302 points
Plasma gun
Retinue
Mystic x 2

Land Raider
extra armour

Troops

10 x Battle Sisters - 200
VSS
1 x flamer
1 x heavy flamer
Rhino
Extra armour
smoke launchers

10 x Battle Sisters - 200
VSS
1 x flamer
1 x heavy flamer
Rhino
Extra armour
smoke launchers

10 x Battle Sisters - 202
VSS
2x meltas
Rhino
Extra armour
smoke launchers

10 x Armoured fist - 170
Sergent
LasCannon
Chimera
heavy bolter
multilaser

10 x Armoured fist - 173
Sergent
LasCannon
Chimera
multilaser
heavy bolter
ex armour

Fast Attack

7 x Seraphim - 178
Vet sister
2 x hand flamers

HS

Exorsist - 140

Extra armour

Exorsist - 140

Extra armour

Leman Russ - 160
heavy bolter sponsons
heavy bolter
extra armour


In the blue corner weighing in at an impressive 2k pts, 57 models and 6 pieces of armor is the notorious carrot muncher, RABBIT!

[2000 Black Legion Build]


H.Q.: 145

Chaos Sorcerer #1- 145
*MoS
*Lash of Torment
*Wings


ELITE: 370

Chaos Terminator Squad #1- 185
*5x termis
**4x combi-plasmas
**1x heavy flamer & power fist

Chaos Terminator Squad #2- 185
*5x termis
**4x combi-plasmas
**1x heavy flamer & power fist


TROOPS: 820

Chaos Marine Squad w/ IoCG #1- 280
*10x chaos marines w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos marines with plasma guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ power fist
*1x rhino
**extra armor

Chaos Marine Squad w/ IoCG #2- 270
*10x chaos marines w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos marines with melta guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ power fist
*1x rhino
**extra armor

Chaos Marine Squad w/ IoCG 31- 270
*10x chaos marines w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos marines with melta guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ power fist
*1x rhino
**extra armor


FAST: 290

Chaos Raptor Squad w/ IoK- 290
*10x chaos raptors w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos raptors w/ melta guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ lightning claws


HEAVY: 375

Chaos Predator #1- 130
*las-sponsons

Chaos Predator #2- 130
*las-sponsons

Chaos Predator #3- 115
*heavy bolter sponsons
*havoc launcher


TOTAL COST: 2000 (on the money)
TOTAL MODEL: 57
TOTAL ARMOR PIECES: 6


When casting your vote please be sure to either put the name of the winner you chose as the subject line of your post or put it in bold somewhere in the post, thanks!

Generals of the above armies, please post your tactics for the battle as soon as you are able!
 

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The Unpredictable
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471 Posts
Ok, my list was like it was designed to take out rabbits list

Preds
i get second turn, which is an advantage, rabbit would have to move forward to hit me, and there goes all 3 predators turn 1 (if unlucky, and this is severely unlucky) turn 2. This will be done with my 2 lascannons from the IG, same from the LR and the 2 exorsists which are D6 St10 AP1 shots) which leaves my anti tank to take his termies out, and they won't last more than a turn either (as they will be going by their inv saves)

ok, preds are really not scary because as much as his rhinos have extra armour, his preds do NOT have it... they will be easier to keep from firing this way... this will allow me to focus on his units over his tanks YAY without his tanks he is messed up

Termies
depending on deployment the same thing will happen once he pokes his head out. he will be taken out by my anti tank which has taken out the predators.

i have the solution for DSing Termies too, Mystics ^_^... i drop them turn one in a close location and they have a seeing range of 4D6 and I get free shots at them with my anti tank weapons 2x Exorsists and LR. and then i get to shoot again during my turn, Rabbit has no where to run with them

Raptors
Serephim vs raptor fight would be interesting, the Russ will try to pop a shot at them to even the odds and I am sure the IG will take some shots too with the chimeras multilaser and Heavy Bolters. Cannoness may travel with them depending on the Characters deployment... i also have the jump back special rule which means at the end of the CC i can get out of CC flamer and charge again ^_^

Character killer
Cannoness will be my character killer (and a damn good hyper faith monkey one she is) she can't be out run and the evil makes her uber powered with 2++ saves

The rest of my army
and finally for the sisters with the anti tank out of the way they can take the control points for secure and control and with my big shooting mostly still in tact (i can promise they will all survive, luck could make it so though) thy can do some damage to those pesky chaos units in rhinos) *wubs exorsists and russ tanks*

the dreaded Lash
the only part of my army that can be affected by it is IG as my sisters are all immune to psychic powers due to being faithful (this includes beneficial ones but who cares i don't use em) *wubs teh sisters*
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
I'll have my tactics posted by tomorrow.

Best of luck, Tossy. Personally, I can't see how your list is designed to combat mine, but I'll get to this in my post tomorrow. :)
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
Preds
i get second turn, which is an advantage, rabbit would have to move forward to hit me, and there goes all 3 predators turn 1 (if unlucky, and this is severely unlucky) turn 2. This will be done with my 2 lascannons from the IG, same from the LR and the 2 exorsists which are D6 St10 AP1 shots) which leaves my anti tank to take his termies out, and they won't last more than a turn either (as they will be going by their inv saves)
Ok Tossy, you really need to run the numbers on taking out Rabbit’s preds. Assuming that your tanks and guardsmen are all still alive when you get your first turn, on average you will take out exactly one of Rabbits preds.

Lets look at each of your units and their odds of taking out a pred.
-First of all at the we are talking about it is almost guarantied that you will be shooting at the front armor of the preds so that is against AV13.

-Exorcists: First of all you have the wrong strength listed for the Exorcist multiple missile launcher, it is S8 not S10. On average they will get 3.5 shots per turn so with the two of them you can assume an average of 7 shots. That is 4.67 hits, and against AV13 that is a 77.8% chance of getting a destroyed result.

-Leman Russ: I am assuming that you are using the Battle Cannon since you don’t have the hull mounted lascannon. There is a 1/3 chance of getting a hit result on the scatter dice, then I will be generous and assume that if you get a 1-3 scatter you will still hit, but a 4-6 is absolutely a miss. So there for that ends up being a 2/3 chance to hit with the Leman Russ, a S8 (Ordinance) weapon against a AV13 (since it is a non-barrage weapon) has a 9.9% chance of getting a destroyed result.

-The 2 guard squads: 2 Lascannon shots on average 1 will hit, and against AV 13 that is a 19.4% chance of getting a vehicle destroyed result.

Adding those all up you get 107.1% chance of killing a Predator, So I just don’t see how you can think you will take out all three of his with those models on round 1.



Termies
depending on deployment the same thing will happen once he pokes his head out. he will be taken out by my anti tank which has taken out the predators.

i have the solution for DSing Termies too, Mystics ^_^... i drop them turn one in a close location and they have a seeing range of 3D6 and I get free shots at them with my anti tank weapons 2x Exorsists and LR. and then i get to shoot again during my turn, Rabbit has no where to run with them
Ok so as I pointed out with the preds you will not likely be able to take them out first round, and the Mystics ability only allows the inquisitor and his retinue to shoot at the deep striking unit or one other model within 12” to shoot at the unit deep striking in, so you could only use one of the exorcists. This is also assuming that he decides to deep strike within range of your Inquisitor.
 

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The Unpredictable
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471 Posts
you are correct, st8 sorry

i also said that i have a land raider and 2 IG las cannons and would only use the russ to hurt them if needed

I also said that the Termies move slow and so i will have time to take them out. and if they DS my mystic will see them and kablamo

lets also not forget math hammer sucks and as much as it is a middle ground very rarely turns out that way. my 1 exorsist has a higher chance on the table of killing 1 per turn even if i do roll a 3 (i am yet to have a game where a preds dosn't die by 1 of my 2 exorsists. which leaves my other guns to take the other 2

AND lets also not forget that i can stop them from shooting per turn (or weapon destroyed) and that will remove their threat, and math hammer would give me great odds on that ^_^

and the range of the INQ is 4D6 or 14" in math hammer language, he would be out of assault for my heavies that way or get shot down

and running math hammer he will not DS where he wants to and could end up in DT or away from my army... or even towards and in my 14" range *gasp*

any more questions?
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
Ahh very true about the land raider I forgot about that…so the 2 TL lascannons will add 34.6% chance of killing a pred.

Like it or not, when analyzing a battle the averages and statistics are all that you can truly count on, dice rolls can go either way and saying that you always (or nearly always) roll better then stat can’t be used as an argument in an online analysis of the two sides.
 

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One Awesome Dude
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1,902 Posts
It is a fair point, Votewar is entirely theoretical - therefore, we are forced to rely on mathhammer a lot.
 

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The Unpredictable
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471 Posts
fairy nuff... i just dislike it when it comes down it real life gameage...
thanks for doing the stats though, i feel even more positive I will win this than before (if that was possible)
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
and running math hammer he will not DS where he wants to and could end up in DT or away from my army... or even towards and in my 9' range *gasp*
Given the math-hammer, the termis will virtually never scatter. They're deep striking off the icons (or up to 6" away from an icon) with no scatter. Also, this translates beautifully to the table; in my experience with termis, I've yet to scatter in 4th edition.

Tossy, where are you placing your units? Here's what I've placed so far:

3x Rhinos stocked with Marines: Two on the northern edge of my deployment zone, next to the forest. One on the eastern edge of the deployment zone, next to the forest.

2x Las-predators: On the hill in my deployment zone.

1x Dakka predator: On the eastern size of my deployment, south of the forest

2x Termiantor squad: Held for deep strike

1x raptor squad & 1x sorcerer: Pending placement.
 

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Nightlord
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1,795 Posts
The range on those mystics is 4d6 not 3d6 which means an average of 14". This will be a tough battle for both of you as they are very similar armies. Whew this is a tough choice, TOSSY has more shots, but RABBIT has first turn so he will have a round of shooting on him, but then TOSSY gets last round objective contesting. Argghh. I will wait 'till rabbit gives us his game plan.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
Mission objective: In all probability, any loot counters located in the two neutral territories or on Tossy's side will be contested, as my forces are on the offensive, which should put my pups smack dab around the sides and in the middle of Tossy's quarter. This leaves any remaining loot counters located on my deployment quarter free from Tossy's pesky pesky Sisters. My thoughts at least. My experience as well, for what it's worth :happy:

It is also worth noting, though obvious as it is, that a 'weapons destroyed' roll against an exorcist works just as well as a 'destroyed' roll. Just something to bear in mind.


Tactics:

Rhinos (3x): Will sweep around the sides of the forest terrain, 2 rhinos on the northern edge and one on the eastern edge. They will blow smoke first round. While en route to Tossy's quarter, they will primarily aim melta fire at the heavily fortified enemy tanks- i.e., the leman russ, the landraider, and the exorcists. Once they advance within Tossy's quarter, the 30 marines will disembark (behind the ride of rhinos for safety) and then march forth and engage Tossy's Sisters and Armored Fist in c.c.. In order to facilitate this tactic, they will tank bust any lightly armored vehicles on the round they deploy from the rhinos. This should open up those tin cans and reveal the splendor flesh of the fragile Sisters and Armored Fisters, at which time, my soldiers will happily feast (excuse the flourish and windfall, but I feel like being colorful :party2:). Once the rhinos have unloaded, they will then proceed to block LOS for my marines, maneuvering around the board so as to shield the exorcists and any other obese cannons that have a fancy for my precious marines.

Predators with Las-sponsons (2x): Will remain on the hill positioned in my deployment, where they will commence long range fire tactics against the Exorcists as their primary objective. Secondary targets include the leman russ, or, if my marines need help opening up those tin can rhinos and chimeras, then they will re-divert focus towards those targets. The predators will also, when the opportunity presents itself, address the nuisance known as the leman russ, firing a heavy dose of las-canons. This also applies to the lunch box, as we call it, aka- the landraider (our sources inform us of a most delicious tart ensemble residie within its hold).

Dakka predator (heavy bolters, autocannon, & havoc launcher): Will truck alongside the eastern curve of the forest, directing aim at any unsuspecting rhinos and/or chimeras (or perhaps the Seraphim squad if necessity demands). With so many shots from Mr. Dakka- that's 9 (6 h.b., 2 autocannon, and 1 5S blast), lightly armored vehicles go down in a hurry. This will be Dakka's primary job throughout the battle, taking down lightly armored vehicles, laying waste to the passengers inside, and also blocking LOS for my advancing marine lines. I expect that having 3 rhinos and a dakka predator will function most excellently at procuring LOS blockage for my marines and raptors.

Raptors & Lash Sorcerer: Will be deployed closest to the center of the board. Being first will greatly work to their advantage, as the raptors and sorcerers will leap over the forest terrain. The sorcerer will then use the lash on the Seraphim squad, pulling them 2d6" towards the raptors, which should, with only a small amount of luck, bring the Seraphims within charging distance of the raptors & sorcerer.

Terminators (2x): Both squads shall be held in reserves, pending a tactical deep strike off an icon, thus preventing scatter. Through clever subterfuge, my spies have informed of the hideous DH Inquisitorial tricksters, who desire nothing more than to see my termis emerge from a field of energy, only to be shot at once. But, low! (and other sorts of antiquated smatterings...gibber gibber...I jest). Such an end is not in sight, for the rhinos will also purport to block LOS for the termis, as they arrive from their shallow orbit. Incidentally, if for some reason this option proves fruitless, then they can always deep strike a little farther away from the DH Inquisitors, but within rapid fire range of the enemy (plasma and heavy flamers galore). They will focus on the vulnerable sections of Tossy's army, whether it is an exposed Seraphim squad, the rear of a exorcist, though unlikely but still within the realms of possibility, or one of the multitude of smaller prey.
 

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The Unpredictable
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471 Posts
i think my tactics have explained how i would handle a lot of this (look on page 1)

exorsists have ex armour, your preds do not... i love that ^_^

But something rabbit may have missed when writing his

Lash can't touch sisters only the IG units, Faith stops all psychic powers (no rolling necessary or faith points used up) just a perk of being a sister
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
Lash can't touch sisters only the IG units, Faith stops all psychic powers (no rolling necessary or faith points used up) just a perk of being a sister
Thank you. Given this, I have made an amendment to my above tactics.

Consider as well that your exorcists will each have 3.5 S8 attacks, whereas my predators will each have 2 S9 and 2 S8. As well, extra armor does nothing against 'armament destroyed' and 'destroyed' rolls. Statistically, the predators are slightly better and making a scrap heap of your exorcists, than the other way around.
 

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The Unpredictable
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471 Posts
ha ha ha, people are having enough trouble deciding on this. how about we let them decide how this will go now...
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
Lash can't touch sisters only the IG units, Faith stops all psychic powers (no rolling necessary or faith points used up) just a perk of being a sister
This is not true. Tossy, try checking your codex on page 18 under the 'Shield of Faith' section, the last sentence in the first paragraph clearly states that psychic powers only work against Adepta Sororitas models on a d6 roll of a 5+. They are not nullified automatically with no roll necessary.

Ok well now that all the tactics have been laid out I am going to have to vote for Rabbit, I think that his tanks have an advantage over tossy’s, his Raptors will do better then Tossy’s Seraphim, and his troops are more resilient and once they get to HtH should lay waste to the sisters and guard. The terminators should just be icing on the cake.
 

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The Allmighty Chaos Boots
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814 Posts
Sisters juiced up on faith have rending bolters. That will bite a huge chunk out of the enemy marines also In cc another perky faith gives all the sisters s6 hitting at the same time as a powerfist so that means every hit is a wound that needs to be saved even if they only get 1 atatck each thats 3-5 wounds that needs to be saved pending on how many are left standing after the CSM hit termies are also at risk from rending bolters. but in essence Platypus is right.

CSM are tough in cc
the tank battle are going to be in Tossys favour imo considering I dont see any extra armor on Rabbits tanks and Tossy got 2 AV 14 tanks.
The seraphim will be pawned by the raptors
the first tipping factor is if the IG can stand up to whatever comes after them before they get mauled.
The termies likewise is a bit random if they get to engage in cc they will be unstoppable if they end up in a slug fest they will eventually be shot to pieces but it will take precious time.

What to do what to do... I'll wait with my vote a little bit longer 3:3 in Tossys favour atm
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
the tank battle are going to be in Tossys favour imo considering I dont see any extra armor on Rabbits
I may be a little biased in suggesting this; however, the point still remains that extra armor doesn't aid the exorcists all *that* much. Having only a single large canon, they are effectively removed from the effectiveness of battle on a 'weapon destroyed' roll as well as 'destroyed.'

EDIT: Tossy, there have been a few of times, when you've misquoted your codex for this battle, this last one concerning your immunity to psi powers was potentially most affecting upon the outcome, seeing as how it could have greatly and erroneously changed the flow of the game. In the future, please make sure that you examine your codex prior to making statements about your tactics or counter-tactics to my own :)
 

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The Allmighty Chaos Boots
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814 Posts
True enough Rabbit. But I was also taking into consideration that they may well be hidden behind cover ging them a 4+ glancing hits only and then being imune to crew sahken really counts. There is also the matter of 2 AV 14 tanks bearing down on you. all things considered Tossys tanks will murder yours with few causalties so they may be considered free to enagge targets of oppertunity at some point in the game.

the sisters will put up a good fight vs what you throw at them when disembarked.

The question is how much damage can your termies and raptors cause as they are in the same position as Tossys tanks. that is: unkilled the hqs pretty much cancel each other out though you may cause somed amage by lashing some IG so they cant shoot their big guns.

3:3 in rabbits favor
 

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Senior Member
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2,399 Posts
-Leman Russ: I am assuming that you are using the Battle Cannon since you don’t have the hull mounted lascannon. There is a 1/3 chance of getting a hit result on the scatter dice, then I will be generous and assume that if you get a 1-3 scatter you will still hit, but a 4-6 is absolutely a miss. So there for that ends up being a 2/3 chance to hit with the Leman Russ, a S8 (Ordinance) weapon against a AV13 (since it is a non-barrage weapon) has a 9.9% chance of getting a destroyed result.

Actually it's 14.78% for a destroyed if you use the to hit / scatter at 66% - you roll 2D6 for armour penetration with ord penetration, therefore:
5 is glanceing (1/6 results = destroyed) , 6 is pen (3/6 results = destroyed) with 2 dice and even odds either are rolled I'll work it out as (1/3 pen result and add them together): Glancing odds at 5.55% destroyed. ((1/3-two die for a 5)x(1/6-destroyed result))
Penetrating at 16.667% destroyed.
Combined they're 22.217%, with 66% accuracy = 14.8%
and a very good odds you won't be firing (44% from just pointing at it)

sorry, i'm being pedantic i know. (I can't see my darling Russ slated)

p.s. Hull Las is worse due to the scatter - and it only breaks even at AV14 pen odds, when lower a Cannon wins hands down.

P.P.s. voting for Rabbit.
 
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