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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Let the battle Commence!

PLEASE NOTE: All board edges and turn orders will be determined randomly!

This will be a Gamma level cleanse mission using the infiltrate, deepstrike, and victory point special rules. IA will have the north east quarter and the first turn while Rabbit will have the south west quarter and the second turn.



In the red corner weighing in at an impressive 1997 pts, 4 TMCs, and 115 other various bits of biomass is the creature with indiscernible features, IRONANGEL!

HQ:

Tyrant w/ ES + TS + 1x TL-Dev, 1x BS + Psychic Scream
155 pts
2x Tyrant guard w/ RC + ST
90 pts

Tyrant w/ ES + TS + 1x TL-Dev, 1x BS + Psychic Scream
155 pts
2x Tyrant guard w/ RC + ST
90 pts

Elite:

3x warriors w/ ES + EC + TS, 2x TL-Devs, 1x TL-BS
128 pts

3x warriors w/ ES + EC + TS, 2x TL-Devs, 1x TL-BS
128 pts

3x warriors w/ ES + EC + TS, 2x TL-Devs, 1x TL-BS
128 pts

Troops:

16x spineguants
80 pts

16x spineguants
80 pts

16x spineguants
80 pts

16x spineguants
80 pts

16x spineguants
80 pts

16x spineguants
80 pts

Fast Attack:

1x Ravener w/ ST+RC
40 pts

1x Ravener w/ ST+RC
40 pts

1x Ravener w/ ST+RC
40 pts

Heavy Support:

3x Zoanthropes w/ Psychic Scream + Warp Blast
195 pts

1x Carnifex w/ ES + RC + FH + VC + BS
164 pts

1x Carnifex w/ ES + RC + FH + VC + BS
164 pts

Total:
1997 pts
4 TMCs
115 Other Gribblies

In the blue corner weighing in at an impressive 2k pts, 57 models and 6 pieces of armor is the notorious carrot muncher, RABBIT!

[2000 Black Legion Build]


H.Q.: 145

Chaos Sorcerer #1- 145
*MoS
*Lash of Torment
*Wings


ELITE: 370

Chaos Terminator Squad #1- 185
*5x termis
**4x combi-plasmas
**1x heavy flamer & power fist

Chaos Terminator Squad #2- 185
*5x termis
**4x combi-plasmas
**1x heavy flamer & power fist


TROOPS: 820

Chaos Marine Squad w/ IoCG #1- 280
*10x chaos marines w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos marines with plasma guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ power fist
*1x rhino
**extra armor

Chaos Marine Squad w/ IoCG #2- 270
*10x chaos marines w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos marines with melta guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ power fist
*1x rhino
**extra armor

Chaos Marine Squad w/ IoCG 31- 270
*10x chaos marines w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos marines with melta guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ power fist
*1x rhino
**extra armor


FAST: 290

Chaos Raptor Squad w/ IoK- 290
*10x chaos raptors w/ standard equipment
**2x chaos raptors w/ melta guns
**1x aspiring champion w/ lightning claws


HEAVY: 375

Chaos Predator #1- 130
*las-sponsons

Chaos Predator #2- 130
*las-sponsons

Chaos Predator #3- 115
*heavy bolter sponsons
*havoc launcher


TOTAL COST: 2000 (on the money)
TOTAL MODEL: 57
TOTAL ARMOR PIECES: 6


When casting your vote please be sure to either put the name of the winner you chose as the subject line of your post or put it in bold somewhere in the post, thanks!

Generals of the above armies, please post your tactics for the battle as soon as you are able!
 

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Gonna wait to see some tactics myself, but forumjayz; while Rabbit definately has some decent firepower, the range on much of it is medium at best. Against such numbers will the long range weapons be able to do enough for the shorter ranged weapons to put on enough hurt in the end? (After all, no matter how you slice it, IA has one hundred gaunts to soak up a lot of firepower before bigger and meaner things get close. Will the chaos marines really be able to think those numbers plus the ranks of the larger bugs in order to deny the nids the table?)
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
I appreciate the confidence, folks, and I certainly don't want to discourage any votes against me, but until Ironangel and I post tactics, it' best to wait until our armies are in place and gritting it out on the table ;Y (just something to keep in mind for future Votewars).
 

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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I appreciate the confidence, folks, and I certainly don't want to discourage any votes against me, but until Ironangel and I post tactics, it' best to wait until our armies are in place and gritting it out on the table ;Y (just something to keep in mind for future Votewars).
Rabbit hit it spot on here guys, I even asked in the info thread that votes wait for tactics if at all possible as these matches are going to be very close and every vote counts. We wouldn't want someone to post a vote only for vote altering tactics to be posted and then the person who posted the vote to never check back with the thread.

That being said.... here comes the tome of tactics and knowledge!

Starting 2 votes down pre-tactics is not a good position and considering the match it is a curious one in my opinion as well. I feel that I have this one locked up pretty tight.

Deployment will start with my gaunts forming an arrow head along the edge of my table quarter. 2 Broods of gaunts, a Tyrant w/ guard, a zoan and a Fex will deploy along the left edge of my quarter. 2 Broods of gaunts, a Tyrant w/ guard, a warrior brood, a zoan and all 3 raveners will deploy as far towards the middle of the board as possible while remaining in my quarter. This leaves 2 Broods of gaunts, 2 broods of warriors, a zoan and a fex to be positioned along the bottom edge of my quarter.

First turn will see everything advance forward with the Cell on the left moving to take up residence in the top half of the right hand forest, the cell on the middle crossing the middle of the board diagonally in order to reach the bottom half of the forest on the right and the cell on the bottom of my quarter advancing through the forest on my side of the table to position themselves in it’s bottom half. All of my warriors broods, TMCs and zoans will attempt to stay within 6” of the edge of the forests in order to both gain cover and be able to see out of the forests to fire.

By moving my force in this way I will ensure that it will be as hard as possible for Rabbit to engage just one portion of my force at a time. Should he try to just engage the center he will come under fire from the sides, should he try to hit the sides he will then come under fire from the center.

Most of my force may be slow moving but winning a cleanse is all about taking and holding table quarters and this I have in spades.

Starting from turn 1 the Fexes will go to work keeping the AT predators shaken, which should not be hard considering all I need is a single glancing hit to do so. Should the AT preds be out of line of sight they will then go after the Dakka pred or any transports that they can see. The zoans and tyrants will act as transport poppers for the first few turns until the juicy meat things decide to vacate their tin cans, should there prove to be no transports in range they will then attempt to target the predators / raptors. Once the transports are popped the marines will quickly come under fire from the 5 pinning pie plates, 8 devourers and 3 AP3 templates that my zoans, warriors, and Tyrants will be throwing their way. The raveners will keep behind the gaunt screen in the center group and due to Psychic screams effecting leadership, Rabbit will likely not be able to pass target priority checks to fire on them.

I can see Rabbit trying to be sneaky with his raptors and termis which is why my raveners are waiting on them to move / deepstrike for the raveners to begin the slaughter. Should the raptors decide to try and get past my gaunts and make a run for the TMCs or warriors broods the raveners will pounce making full use of their longer charge range, striking before the raptors and with an average of 6 MEQ kills on the charge will all but wipe the raptors out. Lets also not forget that in order to charge my Tyrants Rabbit will need to roll an LD check and with all of the psychic screams on the board that is one check he is not likely to pass.

Deep striking termis would seem to be of grave concern to my plans but considering that they should only get around 3 wounds on a TMC from a round of rapid firing, add in cover saves and I am not too worried. They will do a little bit of damage and then get swamped by gaunts and finished off by TMCs. Should Rabbit decide to start with the termis on the board I will ensure that they are a high priority target, taking fire from the warriors and Tyrants from the word go, by the time they get in range to use those plasma guns they should be decimated.

Psychic scream will be an absolute back breaker for rabbit in this match as it means that I have the edge in any CC engagements as well as the fact that the combination of psychic screams, 7 pie plates and a ton of other ranged fire will mean that he will be taking multiple morale / pinning checks every turn with up to a -5 modifier.

Finally I would like to add that Rabbits force is really not suited for fighting bugs as his greatest anti horde assets are the bolters in his tactical squads. This may seem like an odd thing to say but consider that if he fires his bolters into my swarm he will not be able to fire his plasmas / meltas at my TMCs and vice versa. There is no possible way that he can hope to take out both the horde(96 gaunts, 9 warriors, 3 raveners, 3 zoans) and the TMCs(26 T6 wounds). Also the only real ranged hate that Rabbit can bring against my TMCs is from the 2 AT predators and as I explained above, all it takes is a single glancing hit to make them ineffectual for a turn.

In the end Rabbit just does not have the firepower to take me out whereas he does not have the numbers to stand up to the firepower that will be coming his way.
 

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The Allmighty Chaos Boots
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814 Posts
Cleanse... hmmm well. I see lots of plasma that wont get into range and some tanks that will be shaken every turn if they show them selves which they ahve to to shoot at the big ones and a ton of marines to slaughter guants.

now to read IAs tactics.

AT tanks shaken: check
marines slaughtering guants: check
tyrants laying smackdown on marines: check
termies risk scattering and being killed if summoned to an Icon they will not be able to do their thing as they will be to far away to rapid fire the TMCs. They wont be able to dislodge more than 1 TMC and wound another on average before being wiped.

Still I do belive that Rabbit has got a fair shot at winning this. teh troops are tough as nails and will wade through the guants after 3-4 turns. so again. its TMCs and elites vs whats left of the marine infantry. that will be suffering massive pinning and being wiped in cc by tyrants.
I would say IronAngel wins with very slim odds 7:6 or 6:5 in his favour.

The choir turns every [edit]TMC[edit] cc into a sweeping advance and standing around and shooting is not healthy with all that pinning. sorry rabbit.
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
Well I think that this is one of the best match ups yet.

I will hold off my vote until Rabbit posts his tactics but here are my initial thoughts:

Rabbit should be able to bow down the gaunts in both ranged & CC.

The Choir will have little effect on CC since Rabbit should win most of the combat against the gaunts and even if he doesn’t his base troops have the ICoG so he can re-roll his moral tests.

The Carnifexs will be difficult for Rabbit to take out and they will defiantly be wreaking havoc on the preds, though with Rabbit having the first turn and then having the Terminators to back up MC killing that may do some offsetting of this, though I am not 100% on that.

While I don’t think that the gaunts are much of a threat to Rabbit, they will definitely make it tough for Rabbit to put the hurt on the MCs behind them. The Fexs will likely keep the las preds busy but it will probably take them several turns to finish them off.

EDIT:
in the end I think that the rhinos slowing down the nids and the superior resilians of the marines comared to most of IAs army will win it for him. Rabbit
When it comes down to it I think that both sides will have a hard time killing the other off.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
Still I do belive that Rabbit has got a fair shot at winning this. teh troops are tough as nails and will wade through the guants after 3-4 turns. so again. its TMCs and elites vs whats left of the marine infantry. that will be suffering massive pinning and being wiped in cc by tyrants.
I would say IronAngel wins with very slim odds 7:6 or 6:5 in his favour.
Come on, people. Please (PLEASE) wait until all tactics are posted. Though, I suppose it's only fair, since two vote slid under the radar of strategy in my favor. I'm writing up tactics and will have them posted in 30 minutes.

TACTICS AGAINST THE BUG INFESTATION IN CHAOS OCCUPIED SPACE (Let the BBQ begin!):

Las-sponson Predators (2x): Will position behind the middle heap of ruins angled slightly apart in a 'V' like fashion so as to gain better LOS for the las-sponsons. Obviously, they will focus on the big bugs.

Dakka with havoc launchert (1x): Will play the middle-man, starting on the left forward side of the las-predators and moving and shooting at need at the smaller bugs, once they come into view. He will remain on the move in order to delay any c.c. claws desirous of scraping his beautiful painted hull.

Rhinos (3x- marines deployed outside the transports): Will take up rank on the far eastern border of my deployment zone. Rhinos actually work best against swarms, since they operate as mobile LOS blockers. They will rush along the eastern side of the table and park in a line directly in front of Ironangel's farthest right dispatch of critters and monsters and blow smoke. This will form a LOS blocking wall that will force the Nids to either move around it or destroy the rhino(s), and then march over them the following turn, thus disrupting their tempo.

Marines (3x units of 10 men, deployed separately from rhinos): Will start on the left side of the las-predators. Their initial focus will be the larger bugs, and then, progressively switch to the smaller insects.

Raptors (1x of 10 count): Will stay back, anticipating the arrival of any hidden bugs that Iron has in store. The good thing about my force is that there are no juicy havocs for the bugs to flank.

Sorcerer (1x): Will continually push back the advancing enemy line. Prime target- the swarm. Secondary- anything close enough to engage my ranks in c.c..

Termis (2x of 4 each): Will be held for deep strike. Their main focus is flexible. Primary- monstrous creature clean up, taking care of any remaining large bugs. Secondary- raveners and warriors. Tertiary- the little guys.

EDIT: Towards the end of the skirmish, my remaining marines and raptors will begin to slowly stretch outward, anticipating the mission objective and seeking to take ground.
 

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LO Zealot
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Platypus said:
Rabbit should be able to bow down the gaunts in both ranged & CC.

The Choir will have little effect on CC since Rabbit should win most of the combat against the gaunts and even if he doesn’t his base troops have the ICoG so he can re-roll his moral tests.
True on the point about the gaunts being killed in CC by marines but this is why each group of gaunts is backed up by at least one TMC. A Tyrant + 2 guards w/ Rending Claws and Scything Talons or some raveners will absolutely wreck a marine squad.

Rabbit said:
Marines (3x units of 10 men, deployed separately from rhinos): Will start on the left side of the las-predators. Their initial focus will be the larger bugs, and then, progressively switch to the smaller insects.
Prefect... this means that I can focus my Tyrants, zoans and warriors on taking out the marines, only shooting the rhinos if I have no other target or if they are in the way. Being able to target the marines with my pie plates from the beginning means they will be really thinned out by the time they reach their optimum distance, not to mention the decent chance of pinning them that psychic scream will grant.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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Prefect... this means that I can focus my Tyrants, zoans and warriors on taking out the marines, only shooting the rhinos if I have no other target or if they are in the way. Being able to target the marines with my pie plates from the beginning means they will be really thinned out by the time they reach their optimum distance, not to mention the decent chance of pinning them that psychic scream will grant.
I'll echo this declaration of perfection ;Y. It's funny when opposing players find an advantage in the same thing, though I'm a little surprised that you aren't more concerned about the rhinos. Whenever I win against Nids, it's nearly always due to my rhinos delaying the second and third waves, by hindering bug movement.

Zoan's blast: Given the 3BS, I don't expect they'll do *that* much damage. We're only talking about 2-2.5 wounds a round.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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In c.c., my raptors should kill an entire unit of guants in a single turn; my chaos marines, should yield, over 8 per turn.

The warriors should be an easy meal for the dakka predator.

I've been giving this skirmish a little more thought. Regarding the Zoans, I'm happy for them to fire at my marines (killing 2-2.5 per turn), rather than taking pop shots at my predators.

While the Carnifexes are certainly a ranged threat to my predators, I have the first round for pounding away at them before they begin to return fire. After the second round, this should easily kill one carnifex, and leave some remaining fire to be directed at either Iron's other carni or his tyrants. Also, bear in mind that one of the two carnis will be blocked for 1-2 rounds by my advancing rhino wall. Since the zoans are focusing on my troops, there's not much else, once the carnis are gone, for heckling my tanks at range.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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That's all very fine and dandy, but what most people forget is that a good Tyranid player wants you to charge his gaunts. They will most likely be in Synapse, so if you don't manage to kill them all, the CSM's will be stuck in CC, which then means that they'll be counter-charged the next turn by Warriors, Raveners, or TMC's.

Not exactly the "absolute slaughter" you propose.

And even if you manage to Lash one brood closer, slaughter it, then massacre back, your unit should still be in range for a fleet + charge from any number of the remaining Gaunt Broods.

The argument above that "my unit is better, therefore I win" means little, as IA has almost three times the units that you do. And they will not be isolated enough for you to wade through them one at a time. You will get swarmed, and you will lose.

Based on tactics (or more appropriately tactical folly), I vote for IronAngel.
You've pretty much misread my tactics in every manner possible. Why would my marines charge gaunts? The situation is far more conducive towards sitting back and rapid firing. Charging Nids only places me that much closer to the real c.c. threats, which are the medium size bugs, as you stated. Continuing, the lash sorcerer, as was outlined in my tactics, will PUSH bugs away, not draw them towards my ranks, which would only reduce my time for shooting them.

On a side note: Don't presume to know my argument, and then, fail to acknowledge it properly. Actually, don't presume at all. Just address the issues at hand. For one thing, I never stated nor implied that "my unit is better, therefore I will win." I did, however, detail the statistical encounters involving a number of scenarios, illustrating certain c.c. numbers. You may infer, if you like, that this is arrogance on my part or a statement of superiority (though this certainly not my intent); however, it's a leap on your behalf to induce that I am supposing or inclined towards victory.
 

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One Awesome Dude
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Alright, I'm gonna come out and say this - I'm quite sorry if I come off like an arrogant prick.

Can we please all just calm down? Guys, this is just gonna get worse. We don't need to sit here and throw tactics and counter-arguments back at each other the whole thread. A certain degree is fine, but it just....This just hit the flamebait stage.

Can we just leave it to the votes? Rabbit and IA - I have great respect for both you, you're both great tacticians - I'd vote but I don't have enough Nid experience to make it fair, even then, I still couldn't be sure.

Sorry, it's been a long day.
 

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LO Zealot
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
At this point of the game things are going to be tight and emotions are going to run a little hot but I think hotspike has the right of things here.

Let's sit back, relax and let the votes do the talking! :)
 

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After reading the tactics from both sides i think this battle can go either way. IA tactics are laid out perfectly with each unit taking a specific role. I do however believe that rabbit's deployment will have a bigger impact then IA suspects. One extra round of firing is enough to put the nids down for the count. Im gonna give this one to Rabbit.
 

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I had something else to say, but I would rather just leave this be and withdraw my vote.

It is true that I did not fully pay attention to Rabbit's initial tactics. This was done because it has been my impression that Rabbit has changed his tactics in his rebuttal posts during previous matches. Thats just an impression I got, I could be wrong.

There was no intention to "flamebait". I apologize to any who thought so.

(I'm just curious whether anyone else utilizes neg-rep when the vote doesn't go there way...)

Edit: I know now that wasn't Rabbit, but I would appreciate the culprit talking to me personally...
 
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