40K VWMkIII - Battle #13, Round #2 - Tau versus Eldar

Librarian Augustine said:

Eldar the hammerheads strength is reduced to 8 against the wave serpants and the won't be able to take down all the vehicles.

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The Eldar list has very few troops, and very few armour killing weapons, the starcannon is only STR6 so cannot even hurt the front armouy of the HH and wil struggle against the side, the Brightlances are a danger but the HH will be moving 12" a turn and have decoys, the Eldar will struggle to take down the armour of the Tau.

The two Tau HQ cannot be targeted and will target the Falcons and or Waveserps whichever present themselves, the XV8 elites will not just stand around waiting to be shot by starcannnons they will either use cover or against this list probably deepstrike to take the rear armour of the Waveserps or Falcons and really it does not matter if they are not destroyed as long as they cant move/shot or lose weapons thats all thats needed.

The Stealths will be targetting what ever presents itself in range, but will be prioritising the Vipers and Warp spiders.

The Tau in this list are hardly static most of the list is highly mobile and tough to kill, yes the HH and DF dont have Holo fields but they are still skimmers with decoys and the strongest Eldar Weapon is Str8, the Stealths have the spotting and the Shas'Os have a full drone squad protection and IC status.

The FW are placed in the Tau players quarter quite far back, they have Kroot support and the DF will be supporting also, the Eldar will have to come over the field to take them out and this will make them vulnerable, once they are out of the waveserps the Eldar are vulnerable to Submunnition rounds and the FW firepower.
To be effective the Eldar troops have to get out of the Waves and when this happens the Tau have enough firepower to really punish the small units
The Kroot will be in cover if possible and would counter charge any Eldar unit that gets into CC with the FW but they will be there mainly as a shooting unit who will attack 1st if charged in cover and be at a massive advantage.
The War walker would be ignored for as long as possible and the vipers would also be targeted with the subs which because they are open topped will really hurt them.
The warp spiders have a 12" range weapon which limits what they can do against this tau list and such a small squad will fall quickly.

The passengers in the vehicles cannot disembark if the vehicle moves over 12" if they move 12" or less and disembark they can only shoot with their Shuriken pistols and then are exposed to a hell of a lot of return fire (more than enough to wipe out a couple of squads), the Tau player has a turn to get his FW placed effectivley and also has 4 fusion and 3 HH all able to get to the rear armour (if the Serpants move at 24" into the Tau players quarter they leave that rear armour vulnerable, no energy field there eh).
The Vipers are also vulnerable to most of the tau weapons especially as they are open topped (AV10).

This battle is no where near as cut and dried as most have painted, the Tau are very mobile and extremely hard to kill, the Eldar have to assault to perform to their maximum efficiency and when they do are very vulnerable as there are only 2 FW units that they can perform effectively against (the Kroot will hold their own because of the way they are deployed and used, they are not a run into CC unit they are used tactically) and after that those squads are effectively useless.

To perform the mission objectives the Eldar have to take out the two FW squads and the way they are set up and the amount of support they have does not make this easy, but the fact that the Eldar have to commit ot taking these units out means they have to expose the majority of their scoring units to harm and this list can reduce the limited number of troops very fast.
The Falcons are the only real threat and they can be taken out with the mobility of the Tau list allowing rear armour targeting basically at will, and the vehicle weapons are quite limited in STR and range (the HH can outgun and out range them).

It will be a hard battle but my money would go on the Tau simply because they have the mobility and the list is very hard to kill with the limited Str weapons the Eldar have, the lack of troops and the specialised roles of the troops will also work against the Eldar.

The tactics of the Tau list have to be understood and the deployment and mobility of the Tau have been underestimated by the people who have posted previously, the reference to Static is the prime example of this, this Tau list is very far from static and extremely tough to kill.

The prime example of this underestimation is the FW /Kroot and DF set up, if a unit of Eldar get into assult range they will either have to get out and shoot then wait to assault next turn or wait in the vehicle either way they are stuffed.
If they get out and shoot, they will have two rapid fire FW squads shooting at them a squad of FW in the DF will do 2 things 1st the DF will place itself between the FW and the Eldar if possible (no assualt) and also drop its drones to act as a screen for the FW, the FW will rapid fire and the Kroot who are close will either shoot the eldar or shoot the rear armour of the Serpant. How long do you think 8 Scorpions will last against that lot

If the Eldar stay in the vehicle the FW will move away and the waveserp will be targeted by the Kroot, XV8'S (if in range) and the HH.
If the serp is even hit sucesfully by an AP1 shot the troops inside will have to disembark and be possibly be entangled which leaves them open to punishment, you see not as cut and dried as it sounds is it.

The Edar are vulnerable to losing scoring units because they lack the numbers to absorb casualtys.

TAU victory

ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar said:

As much as id like to vote tau, being none mechanised, is a problem. You cant simply hide form CC like id normally suggest.

Further more, poor weapone selection: lack of Missile pods for example hurt the tau list.

THe fursion guns could add some anti tank bunch, except to get that close, they enter Super Star Cannon death zone range.

So, again i regretably vote eldar.

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The list is very mobile only 3 units out of the whole list are limited to 6" movement and Kroot are part of most mech lists anyway. the List has 4 tanks and 7 units with jetpacks. So the hiding from CC is not really a valid point and as pointed out this can be played to advantage as well by tempting the Serps into a more advantages position for the anti armour aspects of the Tau list to do their stuff..

Also the mission is weighted against the Eldar, the transports are not scoring units, niether are the HQ, the troops are limited in number and only need four deaths to count as half VP,s the XV8,s, Stealths and drone squads are all scoring units, so are the Hammerheads and the two XV8 elites as well, they are fast enough and tough enough to last out the game and the Eldar have to go after the foot slogger FW and Kroot to have a chance to do enough damage to get victory, but the set up of the Kroot and FW are resilient enough to tie them up and do damage in return and once those Eldar are out of transports they are vulnerable. it is easier for the Tau to really hurt the Eldar and gain VP's

The poor weapon selection is just plain silly, your saying that a lack of maybe 3 MP is going to make all the difference against this eldar list, well lets look shall we STR7 36" range against skimmers not that effective especially when you consider that most MP XV8's are usually used at range which limits rear armour vulnerability. I am interested to know what the other poor weapons selections are?, The simlple fact is the Eldar are going to be moving down the field to get to the Tau FW's so will be in range for the Fusions and Plasma to be effective (more effective than MP)

The two Shas'O are protected by drone squads and IC and are perfectly capable of getting in range to use the Fusion and Plasma unharmed by the starcannons you mention, Like I mentioned in the other post the Tau only have two units of FW that are vulnerable to CC and even then they are not that vulnerable. The other XV8,s use JSJ and cover to avoid the Starcannons.

Just target the 3 troop choices in the serps, the Warwalker and Vipers, target the Warp spiders with the Stealths and thats basically a victory for the Tau on VP,s The Shas'O will be safe most of the game, the HH are fast and tough enough to survive what ever this very poor anti armour Eldar list can throw at them, same goes for the DF and the Stealths if used properly they will also survive. Like I said used as it should be this Tau list is a tough one to beat, its as tough as a Mech list and has the firebase element as well.

So TAU should prevail.

rikimaru said:

Please explain how str7 MP are good against Falcons, I have played against Eldar many times with no missile pods what so ever and come to mention it no ion cannons and have destroyed them, yes they are hard (very hard) but not indestructable, I respect your opinion and your opinion the Eldar will win, but I really dont think you know how strong the Tau list is tactically.
Just one last thing the lack of CC is not a problem against this Eldar list yes the two units of FW will struggle but the Kroot will hurt the Eldar CC units and when the 2 units of footslogger FW are gone the CC components of the Eldar list are next to useless.
The point your missing is the CC is not the key to this battle VP's are and the Tau are in a better position to gain Vp's than the Eldar.

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Well what else is there to take them down with?
Rail guns are utterly wasted. Let me elaborate on that:

3 solid shots
2 hits
5/3 glancing hits
5/27 kills

So if all 3 hammerheads shot at the falcons every turn for the entire game, they'd kill about 1 falcon.

And if they aren't using hammerheads, it gets much worse. Also, they can't use the fusion blasters, because they don't have the range and the falcons will outmaneuver the much slower jet pack troops.

If the kroot get into cc with fortuned scorpions, they'll be lucky to kill 1, and those firewarriors are toast. Also, given the speed of the tanks, they can move around terrain and slaughter the jetpack units. The only units that can really survive the eldar are the hammerheads and the Devilfish. However, with a ton of excess S6 shots, the eldar can take down the devilfish, and the pulse lasers and bright lances will eventually take down the hammerheads

Generally a big weakness of the tau list is the inability to hide their jetpacks from the eldar skimmers. With 8 of them zooming around, they'll be able to see behind most cover pieces and even if they can't, a 12" move will place them within LOS of those units. So with the jetpack and ground units gone, the only thing left is the tanks, and a tank war doesn't bode well for the Tau, in this case.

Oh yeah, Eldar Victory

TheWamp said:

Well what else is there to take them down with?
Rail guns are utterly wasted. Let me elaborate on that:

3 solid shots
2 hits
5/3 glancing hits
5/27 kills

So if all 3 hammerheads shot at the falcons every turn for the entire game, they'd kill about 1 falcon.

And if they aren't using hammerheads, it gets much worse. Also, they can't use the fusion blasters, because they don't have the range and the falcons will outmaneuver the much slower jet pack troops.

If the kroot get into cc with fortuned scorpions, they'll be lucky to kill 1, and those firewarriors are toast. Also, given the speed of the tanks, they can move around terrain and slaughter the jetpack units. The only units that can really survive the eldar are the hammerheads and the Devilfish. However, with a ton of excess S6 shots, the eldar can take down the devilfish, and the pulse lasers and bright lances will eventually take down the hammerheads

Generally a big weakness of the tau list is the inability to hide their jetpacks from the eldar skimmers. With 8 of them zooming around, they'll be able to see behind most cover pieces and even if they can't, a 12" move will place them within LOS of those units. So with the jetpack and ground units gone, the only thing left is the tanks, and a tank war doesn't bode well for the Tau, in this case.

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Only 2 of the XV8,s can be targeted the HQ are surrounded by drones and cannot be targeted until the drones are gone. Also the XV8's are lone suits and are very easy to hide and they can be deep struck, the Stealths are capable of taking all the vehicles down by targeting rear armour. I use the XV8's to take down armour thats what they are for and they perform well even against fast skimmers (the range of the fusion is not an issue believe me)
The Kroot will not be in CC with the scorpions unless they can counter charge and 57 attacks will hurt, but they are there to shoot from cover (obviously if cover is available which it usually is).
Also the serpents will be making a beeline for the FW so wont actually be scooting around that much for the 1st couple of turns and will be concentrated in a particular area making targeting them quite easy.
The only real problem for the tau is the falcons but like I said the tactics for this list need some explanation but the long post this would need seems to be frowned upon, so I will gracefully concede this loss to the eldar (though its not as cut and dried as most think)

Hmm I wonder who's Tau list this is.

Tau vehicles may be hard but Falcons are known for thier resilience.

3 WaveS's and 2 Falcons should be able to keep the Hammerheads in check. Taking them out before being taken out.

Scorpions will go first and butcher Kroot with thier higher I, number of attacks. Ws Exarch and 3 times better save.

I think that the VW does not however reflect the closeness of the game. I do not think it would be a walk over.

However the "militance" of Tau list proponents n the past may be having an effect though that would be unfortunate.

I'm going to hold off voting for a while.

Cue Rikimaru:

rikimaru said:

Only 2 of the XV8,s can be targeted the HQ are surrounded by drones and cannot be targeted until the drones are gone. Also the XV8's are lone suits and are very easy to hide and they can be deep struck, the Stealths are capable of taking all the vehicles down by targeting rear armour. I use the XV8's to take down armour thats what they are for and they perform well even against fast skimmers (the range of the fusion is not an issue believe me)
The Kroot will not be in CC with the scorpions unless they can counter charge and 57 attacks will hurt, but they are there to shoot from cover (obviously if cover is available which it usually is).
Also the serpents will be making a beeline for the FW so wont actually be scooting around that much for the 1st couple of turns and will be concentrated in a particular area making targeting them quite easy.
The only real problem for the tau is the falcons but like I said the tactics for this list need some explanation but the long post this would need seems to be frowned upon, so I will gracefully concede this loss to the eldar (though its not as cut and dried as most think)

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The drones will die and then the HQ will be killed. Simple as that. These vehicles are not the slow-unmanueverable vehicles of the imperium. The Stealths are comparitively slow and plodding especially considering only a 6" move before shooting. They'll never get rear armor shots. Believe me, if you've ever managed to shoot the back armor of a fast skimmer, the person you were playing was at fault, it was not your skill. Only a true idiot would go any closer than needed when he outranges some of the enemy's best weapons.

Ah, the kroot will shoot from cover at what? The scorpions in the tank they can't hurt or the ones in close combat with them??? Scorpions don't sit out in the open. Their transport moves close enough that the enemy can't escape, and then they move in and butcher their prey But lets assume they did sit in the open:

20 kroot (rapid firing, why not)
40 shots
20 hits
13 wounds
1.5 kills

Serpents in this battle won't be making a beeline for anything, simply because there's no reason to. Firewarriors pose no threat, except to the vypers who outrange them anyway. And it isn't "the first couple of turns" but rather "the first turn". The warriors have the ability (if needed) to disembark and charge on turn 2, while the serpents go do their own thing.

Ah, whatever, it doesn't really matter. I'm just annoyed by the inaccuracy of the militant-ness.

Deek said:

I think that the Eldar are going to have a hard time really hurting the tau. True the tau will feal the same but many of the eldar weapons wont scratch the tau and the tau have 3 mobile railguns so the eldar tanks wont be hiding. Plus all of the crisis suits flying around with melta guns. The problem I have with the eldar list is its points are going to be mainly packaged in those transports. And if destroyed they have a long trot through the battle zone. I vote Tau but both armies will have a hard time destroying eachother

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To put it simply the Eldar vehicles are exactly the same as Tau they can only move 12" and fire one weapon (the HH have Multi) so they either outpace the Tau and dont fire (good for Tau) or move 12" and fire which is good for the Tau because they wil catch the vehicles.
The tau have 4 XV8's two of which cannot be targeted and have BS5 and good anti armour weapons, the Eldar tanks do not have to be destroyed as weapon destoyed etc will do just fine theyare also more vulnerable to immobalised destroyed results than the HH and DF.
The Serps will either move 24" and go for a 2nd turn assualt and leave themselves open to fire (and all the Tau firepower will be in range) or move 12" and still wait for a 2nd turn assault and remember scorpions cant fleet (3+ save), this gives the Tau plenty of opportunity to get in range and damage those Serps. One thing will happen and thats one or two untis of Eldar will be left in the open and that works to the Tau advantage.

The Kroot shooting kills on average 3 Scorps a turn (they are only tgh3 so wound on 3+) and for an 8 man squad thats a big loss, the CC effectiveness just took a bashing right there, if the unit loses a few more in CC the Tau get 1/2 VP's and with only 3 units on the table thats easy to achieve. I would be quite willing to lose a unit of FW to take out a unit of scorpions.

The Strength of the starcannons is only good for taking down the XV8's and only two of those will be eligable for targeting (if they can be seen) for at least 3 turns (if not more), the Stealths are notoriously hard to kill if used correctly and will hurt the Vipers and any unit that steps out of a Serp, You can shoot all day at he HH (if your in range which most good Tau players will ensure your not) with STR6 starcannons, and 3 HH shots a turn will damage an Eldar vehicle and thats all thats needed.

Dont know what this militant Tau bit is supposed to mean, but if it means being confident of your armies abilities well then yeah I am definately guilty, I would take this eldar list on any day and be confident of victory simply because all the Eldar eggs are in 3 baskets and eggs break easy.