I never thought I'd see an army this deathwing list could beat, but I think the utter lack of armor piercing guns and anti-tank guns will allow the terminator and land raider armor to carry the day
I vote Deathwing
I vote Deathwing
40K VWMkIII - Battle #29, Round #3 - Space Wolves versus Dark Angels
Please see this thread on how to participate in these games. I want to stress to everyone that the mission means everything. He who stands the best way to score Victory Points should be the winner. All missions have the Infiltration, Deep Strike, and Victory Points special rules.
Mission Type - Secure and Control
Karellian Ice Giants, Elements of the 1st and 7th Company - (2 points)
Space Wolves
Headquarters – 544 points
Company Commander Alexandrovitch Kasparov (Wolf Lord):
Space Marine Bike, Frost Blade, Bolt Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Belt of Russ, Two (2) Karellian Bear Dogs (Counts as Fenrisian Wolves)
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Space Marine Bike, Frost Blade, Bolt Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Two (2) Karellian Bear Dogs (Counts as Fenrisian Wolves)
Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnought Grigorii Mishkiin:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnoughts are costlier and stronger, with higher WS, BS, and Attacks.)
Elite – 170 points
Space Wolf Scouts squad – Seven (7) men
Three (3) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power weapons
One (1) armed with Meltagun
Wolf Guard Leader: Wolf Tooth Necklace; Power Fist and Bolt Pistol
Troops – 660 points
Blood Claws Pack – Ten (10) men
Seven (7) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power Fists
One (1) armed with flamer
Drop Pod
Blood Claws Pack – Ten (10) men
Seven (7) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power Fists
One (1) armed with flamer
Drop Pod
10 Grey Hunters Pack – Ten (10) men
Five (5) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Plasma Pistol and CCW
One (1) armed with Melta gun
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power Fists
Drop Pod
Fast Attack – 330 points
Blood Claw Bikers Pack – Five (5) men
Two (2) armed with CCW
Two (2) armed with Power Fists
One (1) armed with Flamer
(Joined by Wolf Lord)
Blood Claw Bikers Pack – Five (5) men
Three (3) armed with CCW
Two (2) armed with Power Fists
(Joined by Wolf Guard Leader)
Heavy Support – 150 points
Whirlwind:
Vengeance Missiles
Whirlwind:
Vengeance Missiles
----------------------------------------
Deathwing “Mech” List - (0 points)
Dark Angels Deathwing
Headquarters – 601 points
Chapter Master:
Stubborn; Terminator Armour; Sword of Secrets; Thunder Hammer; Furious Charge
Reclusiarch Chaplain: (Joins with Terminator Command Squad)
Twin-lightning Claws; Terminator Armour; Furious Charge
Deathwing Terminator Command – Five (5) men
Entire unit has Furious Charge
Two (2) armed with Storm Bolter and Power Fist
Two (2) armed with Assault Cannons and Power Fist
Sergeant: Storm Bolter and Power Weapon
Troops – 480 points
Deathwing Assault squad – Five (5) men
Entire unit has Furious Charge
Four (4) armed with Lightning Claws
Sergeant: Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Deathwing Assault squad – Five (5) men
Entire unit has Furious Charge
Four (4) armed with Lightning Claws
Sergeant: Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Heavy Support – 769 points
Land Raider:
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponsons; Power of the Machine Spirit
Land Raider:
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponsons; Power of the Machine Spirit
Land Raider Crusader:
Twin-linked Assault Cannon; Multi-Melta; Hurricane Bolter Sponsons; Smoke Launchers; Searchlight, Extra Armour
Tactics:
Land Raiders move up 6” and fire their payload, the Crusader moves straight forward as far as possible and fires smoke launchers. Next turn, the big command squad dumps its payload of massive slaughter and ties up as many units as possible. Next turn, the other Land Raiders move up and add in their attacks. Not much can stand up to 32 S5 power weapon attacks that re-roll to wound. The thunderhammers are a just-in-case measure. With all the furious-charge powerfists, multi-melta and assault cannons, enemy vehicles shouldn’t be a problem. And since these guys will be outnumbered, they’ll have to concentrate their attacks and move on. The Land Raiders also make good LOS blockers.
Mission Type - Secure and Control
Karellian Ice Giants, Elements of the 1st and 7th Company - (2 points)
Space Wolves
Headquarters – 544 points
Company Commander Alexandrovitch Kasparov (Wolf Lord):
Space Marine Bike, Frost Blade, Bolt Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Belt of Russ, Two (2) Karellian Bear Dogs (Counts as Fenrisian Wolves)
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Space Marine Bike, Frost Blade, Bolt Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Two (2) Karellian Bear Dogs (Counts as Fenrisian Wolves)
Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnought Grigorii Mishkiin:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnoughts are costlier and stronger, with higher WS, BS, and Attacks.)
Elite – 170 points
Space Wolf Scouts squad – Seven (7) men
Three (3) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power weapons
One (1) armed with Meltagun
Wolf Guard Leader: Wolf Tooth Necklace; Power Fist and Bolt Pistol
Troops – 660 points
Blood Claws Pack – Ten (10) men
Seven (7) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power Fists
One (1) armed with flamer
Drop Pod
Blood Claws Pack – Ten (10) men
Seven (7) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power Fists
One (1) armed with flamer
Drop Pod
10 Grey Hunters Pack – Ten (10) men
Five (5) armed with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Two (2) armed with Plasma Pistol and CCW
One (1) armed with Melta gun
Two (2) armed with Bolt Pistol and Power Fists
Drop Pod
Fast Attack – 330 points
Blood Claw Bikers Pack – Five (5) men
Two (2) armed with CCW
Two (2) armed with Power Fists
One (1) armed with Flamer
(Joined by Wolf Lord)
Blood Claw Bikers Pack – Five (5) men
Three (3) armed with CCW
Two (2) armed with Power Fists
(Joined by Wolf Guard Leader)
Heavy Support – 150 points
Whirlwind:
Vengeance Missiles
Whirlwind:
Vengeance Missiles
----------------------------------------
Deathwing “Mech” List - (0 points)
Dark Angels Deathwing
Headquarters – 601 points
Chapter Master:
Stubborn; Terminator Armour; Sword of Secrets; Thunder Hammer; Furious Charge
Reclusiarch Chaplain: (Joins with Terminator Command Squad)
Twin-lightning Claws; Terminator Armour; Furious Charge
Deathwing Terminator Command – Five (5) men
Entire unit has Furious Charge
Two (2) armed with Storm Bolter and Power Fist
Two (2) armed with Assault Cannons and Power Fist
Sergeant: Storm Bolter and Power Weapon
Troops – 480 points
Deathwing Assault squad – Five (5) men
Entire unit has Furious Charge
Four (4) armed with Lightning Claws
Sergeant: Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Deathwing Assault squad – Five (5) men
Entire unit has Furious Charge
Four (4) armed with Lightning Claws
Sergeant: Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Heavy Support – 769 points
Land Raider:
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponsons; Power of the Machine Spirit
Land Raider:
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponsons; Power of the Machine Spirit
Land Raider Crusader:
Twin-linked Assault Cannon; Multi-Melta; Hurricane Bolter Sponsons; Smoke Launchers; Searchlight, Extra Armour
Tactics:
Land Raiders move up 6” and fire their payload, the Crusader moves straight forward as far as possible and fires smoke launchers. Next turn, the big command squad dumps its payload of massive slaughter and ties up as many units as possible. Next turn, the other Land Raiders move up and add in their attacks. Not much can stand up to 32 S5 power weapon attacks that re-roll to wound. The thunderhammers are a just-in-case measure. With all the furious-charge powerfists, multi-melta and assault cannons, enemy vehicles shouldn’t be a problem. And since these guys will be outnumbered, they’ll have to concentrate their attacks and move on. The Land Raiders also make good LOS blockers.
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1 - 20 of 33 Posts
i vote deathwing
-the space wolves basically lack any anti-tank to tank out those land raiders, and lack enough shooting to stop assault termies.
-the space wolves basically lack any anti-tank to tank out those land raiders, and lack enough shooting to stop assault termies.
Hmm. I'm seeing a lot of 'need shooting to kill assault terminators'. No. They want to be in hth. This is what they do and they do it much better than the terminators.
Terminators will all die in HtH to the Ice Giants, leaving 3 Land Raiders to attempt to achive a secure and control mission.
The Deathwing does not have the numbers to pull this off and the Ice Giants will probably be able to pop at least one Land Raider by melta gun or powerfist.
I vote Ice Giants(Space Wolves) for the mission.
Terminators will all die in HtH to the Ice Giants, leaving 3 Land Raiders to attempt to achive a secure and control mission.
The Deathwing does not have the numbers to pull this off and the Ice Giants will probably be able to pop at least one Land Raider by melta gun or powerfist.
I vote Ice Giants(Space Wolves) for the mission.
I really disagree. You see, the termies are IN the LRs, and there's nothing the SW can do about it. They charge out, and kill 8 marines in a charge. Land Raider fire means that 10 SW will go down per DW squad per turn, so the SW won't even be able to touch them. Powerfists don't do much damage to termies when the user is killed.Grey said:Hmm. I'm seeing a lot of 'need shooting to kill assault terminators'. No. They want to be in hth. This is what they do and they do it much better than the terminators.
Or... the DW can stay in the LRs until they need to assault and they'll easily kill anything they charge.Terminators will all die in HtH to the Ice Giants, leaving 3 Land Raiders to attempt to achive a secure and control mission.
Yeah, except no. Meltaguns, maybe, there's a chance, but powerfists, definetly no. If the SW ever get close enough to assault, the LR will probably have moved over 6", making you hit on a 6+. As for meltaguns, well, the termies could jsut charge out and kill them.The Deathwing does not have the numbers to pull this off and the Ice Giants will probably be able to pop at least one Land Raider by melta gun or powerfist.
Deathwing
Though it is a pretty horrbile deathwing list.
Hmmm. I doubt it.
The Termies PFs aren't going any faster than their opponents and they are outnumbered in both numbers and numbers of units. HtH of Terminators versus space wolves is one sided. On the SWs side.
If they deploy and charge they will kill a number of Sws it is true, but they will be killed in turn since with counter charge the power fists of the SWs will get in.
And then the Terminators will end up getting charged by another unit of SWs.
It won't be pretty.
There is 17. Count that again 17 total Terminators in the DW list versus 54 infantry and bike models armed with 12 powerfists, 2 power weapons, 2 frostblades and a SW Ven Dreadnoughts DCCW.
It won't even be close.
The Termies PFs aren't going any faster than their opponents and they are outnumbered in both numbers and numbers of units. HtH of Terminators versus space wolves is one sided. On the SWs side.
If they deploy and charge they will kill a number of Sws it is true, but they will be killed in turn since with counter charge the power fists of the SWs will get in.
And then the Terminators will end up getting charged by another unit of SWs.
It won't be pretty.
There is 17. Count that again 17 total Terminators in the DW list versus 54 infantry and bike models armed with 12 powerfists, 2 power weapons, 2 frostblades and a SW Ven Dreadnoughts DCCW.
It won't even be close.
this is a secure and control mission, while the DW, which works well together, uses its concentrated forces to support each other, it will be limited in its ability to split and hold objectives, while the SW drop in w/ full strength wherever they need to be, and hold out for a few turns against a DW army that gets progressively weaker as it breaks off to control objectives.
I vote Space Wolves
I vote Space Wolves
I vote for the deathwing. the fact that they can kill a squad of marines a turn will be devastating to the space wolves. Also they have nothing to take out the land raiders soon enough
The Bikes will charge, and since they have no Meltaguns, do nothing. Next, the Terminators will dump out and charge and kill all of the Bikes. It's suicide.
But! The Space Wolf has the advantage of mobility, by Drop Pods, and after the initial dissappointment of the Bikes, will be able to take control of the game again.
Space Wolves Victory
P.S. I HATE THAT DA LIST
But! The Space Wolf has the advantage of mobility, by Drop Pods, and after the initial dissappointment of the Bikes, will be able to take control of the game again.
Space Wolves Victory
P.S. I HATE THAT DA LIST
Why? It's a very fluffy list, and actually has a bit of thought behind the Land Raiders. The Terminator Assault squads stay in the Land Raiders, using the high AV to protect them until they are close enough to charge out with the benefit of frags.TwoHats said:P.S. I HATE THAT DA LIST
You seem to be assuming that all the Terminators are armed with Power fists - you'll notice that 8 of them are using L-Claws at init 5 on the charge - faster than the Space Wolves. Even on a counter charge, it's likely that the 12 power weapon attacks with rerolls to wound are going to wipe out most of the Space Wolves list before those Power fists get a chance to strike back.Grey said:The Termies PFs aren't going any faster than their opponents and they are outnumbered in both numbers and numbers of units. HtH of Terminators versus space wolves is one sided. On the SWs side.
w00t another win for the deathwing list.
Lighting claws termintors Terminate everything. But only when they can get a charge, tankfully theres nothing that will get past AV 14 fast enough in this list.
So Deathwing win.
Lighting claws termintors Terminate everything. But only when they can get a charge, tankfully theres nothing that will get past AV 14 fast enough in this list.
So Deathwing win.
Caluin said:[You seem to be assuming that all the Terminators are armed with Power fists - you'll notice that 8 of them are using L-Claws at init 5 on the charge - faster than the Space Wolves. Even on a counter charge, it's likely that the 12 power weapon attacks with rerolls to wound are going to wipe out most of the Space Wolves list before those Power fists get a chance to strike back.
Not really. I was assuming that 5 man Terminator hth squads are asking to get killed.
Before we get into the effects of characters lets take a simple example.
One Deathwing Assault squad charging one unit of Blood Claws.
12 attacks with lighting claws at I5. Hitting on 3s, they get 7-8 hits. Call it 8. They then get Str 5 due to furious charge, so wounding on threes for 5, reroll misses, they get aroun another two, so they've killed 7. Good job. We can safely assume that one BC with regular CCWs striking back will do nothing, then the two power fists of the BC and the 1 Thunderhammer of the Terminators strike. Blood Claws probably kill 1 Terminator, and the Terminators ThunderHammer will kill(we will again error in the favour of the DW) say 2. So the Terminators have killed 9 BCs for the loss of only 1 Terminator. Sounds pretty good right?
No. Because the one BC will be unlikely to break since SWs don't care about outnumbering bonuses, and then the Terminators will be charged by another squad who will kill them since they will no longer have the advantage of furious charge and the SWs will get all of their attacks.
The DW list has three units for HtH, assuming the Characters stay with their units. The SW have 7 units for HtH assuming the characters stay with their units as well. There is no way the DW cannot be charged after they charge themselves.
This also assumes that the Land Raiders haven't been killed by a melta gun coming from the SW scouts and or the Drop podding Grey Hunters, or the assault cannon or DCCW on the Ven Dread. Which doesn't seem like a lot until you remember that both the scouts and the DPs are pretty easy to manuever into the area where you want them.
As for the power fists on the bikes,
If the Land Raiders are moving fast enough to force 6s to hit, then they won't be getting the main advantage of their firepower even though the machine spirit will help.
Too few DW units and too few numbers.
Vote changed, because SW will not have enough troops on the board to exploit their advantage in numbers.
Sabre
Sabre
Well, I didn't even condsider the deathwing attacking the bikes at all because I knew that the bikes couldn't even touch them.Sabrewulf said:Everyone who says "deathwing will charge and kill X number of spacewolves" is ignoring the fact that these bikes could turbo-boost or stay in cover and then counter-charge when the terminators finally emerge.
Umm, no, look again at the DW list. It has less firepower than the SW list. But it has more potential to wipe out SW units.Also, the numerous HQ choices can simply hide within troop squads, which will absorb shooting losses / hth losses, and then counter-charge. I think the Spacewolves will lose enormous numbers to shooting but it won't matter, because they have the numbers to spare.
Yeah I counted it. But you're forgetting the massive ammount of power weapon attacks from the termies. There is 65. Count that again, 65 power weapon attacks on the charge from the termies. I don't care what they're attacking, it's going to kill any and all SW near them.There is 17. Count that again 17 total Terminators in the DW list versus 54 infantry and bike models armed with 12 powerfists, 2 power weapons, 2 frostblades and a SW Ven Dreadnoughts DCCW.
As for the SW "coutercharging and killing the DW" well that's not going to happen because by turn 2, only 2 drop pods will come down by average. Not 4. So the DW could just kill them and wait for the next batch. They can stand any serious firepower that the SW can give them when they land.
Egg on face
Shoot. I did not see the drop pods. Yeah, that changes things. Vote Changed.
Sabre
Shoot. I did not see the drop pods. Yeah, that changes things. Vote Changed.
Sabre
4 teminators with lighting claws have 16 attacks, not 12. thats an average of 9 dead marines Before they can even strike.
This is a second turn charge, so the landraider needs only move 6"
So, if we account for reasonable shooting:
Twinlinked heavy bolter: Kills one blood claw.
Twinlinked lascannon kills another blood claw.
Machine spirt lascannon, may or may not...
By that time, however, it wont matter.
If you elminate even one blood claw in the shooting phase they will never strike back at the termintors.
We havent even started talking about the sword of secrets with chaplain. Fear that combo.
This is a second turn charge, so the landraider needs only move 6"
So, if we account for reasonable shooting:
Twinlinked heavy bolter: Kills one blood claw.
Twinlinked lascannon kills another blood claw.
Machine spirt lascannon, may or may not...
By that time, however, it wont matter.
If you elminate even one blood claw in the shooting phase they will never strike back at the termintors.
We havent even started talking about the sword of secrets with chaplain. Fear that combo.
Dark Angels
Thier combat ability is far more focused and able to destroy entire squads peicemeal with little threat of retaliation from the late arriving Drop Poded squads which will spread the SW out allowing the DW to pick on units and they will wipe said units out on the charge. Any mean SW stuff is going to get a TLLC to the face.
Thier combat ability is far more focused and able to destroy entire squads peicemeal with little threat of retaliation from the late arriving Drop Poded squads which will spread the SW out allowing the DW to pick on units and they will wipe said units out on the charge. Any mean SW stuff is going to get a TLLC to the face.
Hmm. A Str 5 power weapon hitting on 3s and getting 6 attacks can't hurt terminators, or two power fists getting 6 total attacks? Are you kidding?Ezekiel1990 said:Well, I didn't even condsider the deathwing attacking the bikes at all because I knew that the bikes couldn't even touch them.
Ezekiel1990 said:Yeah I counted it. But you're forgetting the massive ammount of power weapon attacks from the termies. There is 65. Count that again, 65 power weapon attacks on the charge from the termies. I don't care what they're attacking, it's going to kill any and all SW near them.
If they get to charge. Which I doubt. Who are they charging? Bikes? Can't reach them if the bikes decide not to. And as you say next everyone else is in drop pods so WHO exactly are the DW charging?
Thats assuming that all the DW Land raiders hang out together. And if they do, it makes it easier for the SW to pick where they are going to hit them.Ezekiel1990 said:As for the SW "coutercharging and killing the DW" well that's not going to happen because by turn 2, only 2 drop pods will come down by average. Not 4. So the DW could just kill them and wait for the next batch. They can stand any serious firepower that the SW can give them when they land.
Correct. My appologies.ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar said:4 teminators with lighting claws have 16 attacks, not 12. thats an average of 9 dead marines Before they can even strike. .
Really. Who exactly are they charging? As has been stated earlier all the SWs are on drop pods except those that are on bikes. So they're charging who?ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar said:This is a second turn charge, so the landraider needs only move 6".
In addition, it should be remembered that the SW will probably have the first turn so will have a slight advantage in determining who shoots who.
Once again, who are the Land Raiders shooting at? There is nothing on the board for them to shoot at until the DPs come down except for Whirlwinds hidden somewhere and bikes turbo boosting into position.ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar said:So, if we account for reasonable shooting:
Twinlinked heavy bolter: Kills one blood claw.
Twinlinked lascannon kills another blood claw.
Machine spirt lascannon, may or may not...
By that time, however, it wont matter.
If you elminate even one blood claw in the shooting phase they will never strike back at the termintors.
Its a pretty snazy combo. But.ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar said:We havent even started talking about the sword of secrets with chaplain. Fear that combo.
Its contained in one little unit. Yes it is dangerous, so are two characters with str 5 and as many attacks as you hitting the DW characters on 3s.
Once that unit deploys from its Land Raider it is vulnerable. I know I wouldn't want my ICs with only 5 models to protect them, terminators or not. Terminator armour is great, but it does fall to both firepower, which is not absent from the SW list and to multiple units with PFs.
Seriously, if I was playing the SW in this battle (in reality) it would be the land raiders giving me the hebee jeebies, not the terminators.
Honestly, when I play against SW, I always give them the first turn, because I know they're not going to shoot me with anything too decent and I might get a first turn charge in.In addition, it should be remembered that the SW will probably have the first turn so will have a slight advantage in determining who shoots who.
Ok the frost weapons will kill some stuff, but the powerfists probably won't and all the DW player has to do to make sure the frost blade wielder is in combat with a thunderhammer, which isn't too difficult, and they have more to gain then lose by killing an independant character with the bikes.Hmm. A Str 5 power weapon hitting on 3s and getting 6 attacks can't hurt terminators, or two power fists getting 6 total attacks? Are you kidding?
It's not hard to charge a unit if you have a 20" charge radius. Unless the bikes are on one side of the board and the DW are on the other side, it won't take more than two turns.If they get to charge. Which I doubt. Who are they charging? Bikes? Can't reach them if the bikes decide not to. And as you say next everyone else is in drop pods so WHO exactly are the DW charging?
The sword of secrets combo is a lot more dangerous than some S5 stuff. What happens if the Master w/ SoS charges? Well, to start with, he hits with 6 S7 power weapon attacks that re-roll to hit. That means he wounds a bike on 2+. And if he doesn't charge, well, he'll probably hit with his thunderhammer instead. He can take the charge of 6 Frost blade attacks (4 hits, 3 wounds, at least one passed save), and then with a thunderhammer, boom! 3 hits, 2 wounds, at least one failed save, there goes one SW IC. And the chaplain and sergeant could probably take care of the other bikes by themselves (6 attacks, 5 hits, 3-4 wounds).Its contained in one little unit. Yes it is dangerous, so are two characters with str 5 and as many attacks as you hitting the DW characters on 3s.
The Deathwing list isn't all that great, rather, it is very unlikely to make it far in a tournament, but against this specific SW list, it has a lot of advantages.
Well, we've both made our arguements, and I think we should face it: You and I both believe that we are right and the other is wrong, however, we are both biased with either the DW or SW in our favor, and we probably won't change our minds or our votes. So we'll have to agree to disagree and let the voters decide what will happen. You can keep arguing your point if you want, though. Nothing wrong with a constructive arguement. I happen to find them very entertaining.
Not much point in arguing when people have made up their minds that's true.
And I don't think I'll change anyone's mind on anything really. Any true decision has to come from someone looking thoroughly at the lists, considering the mission and then making their own mind. Any arguments should hopefully be in area of clarifying misunderstandings if possible.
I do admit that I tend to get heated sometimes when I read what seem to me sweeping statements with no effort made to back them up.
I feel that you have made the effort to back your arguments up, and while I might not agree with your conclusions, I can respect the fact you've thought about it thoroughly.
All I can say is that I've voted against this list when I thought it would lose and voted for it when I thought it would win, so hopefully I'm not any more biased than the bare minimum necessary.
Shrug. Hard to say. I'll take a look at it a month from now and see what I think then.
Its wierd actually. I haven't really made any secret of the fact that this is my list, and I find myself feeling how I felt when I stopped playing space wolves in favour of more 'horde' style shooting focused armies. (Hopefully I'm not breaking any rule, but I figured with the name and the fact that I've posted a thread with that name elsewhere that its a moot point.)
When it comes right down to it, its easier to figure the odds with shooting than hth. So much about hth is about placement that we can argue until we're blue in the face about how this uber unit(or combinations of uber units) can beat that combination in hth, but how it plays out can be extremely variable even if we assume equal playing skill.
And I don't think I'll change anyone's mind on anything really. Any true decision has to come from someone looking thoroughly at the lists, considering the mission and then making their own mind. Any arguments should hopefully be in area of clarifying misunderstandings if possible.
I do admit that I tend to get heated sometimes when I read what seem to me sweeping statements with no effort made to back them up.
I feel that you have made the effort to back your arguments up, and while I might not agree with your conclusions, I can respect the fact you've thought about it thoroughly.
All I can say is that I've voted against this list when I thought it would lose and voted for it when I thought it would win, so hopefully I'm not any more biased than the bare minimum necessary.
Shrug. Hard to say. I'll take a look at it a month from now and see what I think then.
Its wierd actually. I haven't really made any secret of the fact that this is my list, and I find myself feeling how I felt when I stopped playing space wolves in favour of more 'horde' style shooting focused armies. (Hopefully I'm not breaking any rule, but I figured with the name and the fact that I've posted a thread with that name elsewhere that its a moot point.)
When it comes right down to it, its easier to figure the odds with shooting than hth. So much about hth is about placement that we can argue until we're blue in the face about how this uber unit(or combinations of uber units) can beat that combination in hth, but how it plays out can be extremely variable even if we assume equal playing skill.
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