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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Please see this thread on how to participate in these games. I want to stress to everyone that the mission means everything. He who stands the best way to score Victory Points should be the winner. All missions have the Infiltration, Deep Strike, and Victory Points special rules.

Mission Type - Take and Hold

Space Marines - (2 points)

Chapter traits:

Advantages -
Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients
Disadvantages -
We stand Alone

Headquarters – 86 points.
Master Commander:
Bolter, Power weapon

Elites – 390 points
Dreadnought:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, DCCW, Venerable

Dreadnought:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, DCCW, Venerable

Dreadnought:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, DCCW, Venerable

Troops – 324 points
Scout Squad – Six (6) men
Six (6) armed with Sniper Rifles

Scout Squad – Six (6) men.
Six (6) armed with Sniper Rifles

Scout Squad – Six (6) men.
Six (6) armed with Sniper Rifles

Heavy Support – 330 points
Dreadnought:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, DCCW

Dreadnought:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, DCCW

Dreadnought:
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, DCCW

Fast Attack – 720 points
Land Speeder Squadron – Three (3) Landspeeder Tornados
Three (3) armed with Assault Cannons and Heavy bolters

Land Speeder Squadron – Three (3) Landspeeder Tornados
Three (3) armed with Assault Cannons and Heavy bolters

Land Speeder Squadron – Three (3) Landspeeder Tornados
Three (3) armed with Assault Cannons and Heavy bolters

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Tau - (2 points)

Headquarters - 216 points
Shas'O:
Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Multi Tracker

Shas'O:
Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Multi Tracker

Elites - 338 points
XV8 team leader:
Twin linked Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Hard-wired Multitracker

XV8 team leader:
Twin linked Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Hard-wired Multitracker

Stealth Team Squad – Six (6) men
Six (6) armed with Burst Cannons

Troops - 608 points
Fire Warriors Team – Twelve (12) men
Eleven (11) armed with Pulse Rifles
Shas'Ui: Pulse Rifle

Fire Warriors Team – Twelve (12) men
Eleven (11) armed with Pulse Rifles
Shas'Ui: Pulse Rifle

Fire Warriors Team – Twelve (12) men
Eleven (11) armed with Pulse Rifles
Shas'Ui: Pulse Rifle
Devilfish: Decoy Launchers; Burst Cannon

Kroot Carnivore Squad – Nineteen (19) men
Nineteen (19) armed with Kroot Rifles

Fast Attack – 192 points
Gun Drone Squadron - Eight (8) men
Eight (8) armed with Twin-linked Pulse Carbines

Gun Drone Squadron - Eight (8) men
Eight (8) armed with Twin-linked Pulse Carbines

Heavy Support - 495
Hammerhead:
Railgun, Two (2) Burst Cannons, Multi-Tracker, Decoy launchers

Hammerhead:
Railgun, Two (2) Burst Cannons, Multi-Tracker, Decoy launchers

Hammerhead:
Railgun, Two (2) Burst Cannons, Multi-Tracker, Decoy launchers

Tactics:
The non Devilfish equiped Firewarriors and the kroot are used as a firebase with the Devilfish & Firewarriors being used as a mobile reserve to either support the FW with firepower or to tank shock any units getting close, the DF can also be used to FOF or to take objectives.
The 2 Shas'O use the drone squads as protection using the full encirclement tactic, this allows them to hunt down armour and tough units while being reasonably safe from retaliation.
The other two XV8's hunt armour and all 4 XV8's help to distract fire as they cannot be ignored, being lone suits they help to dilute firepower as well.
The Stealths are a distraction and harrasment unit working on the flanks and are primarily infantry and HQ hunter.
The Hammerhaeds are primarily infantry hunters but can be used for armour.
The list works because it splits fire and is also hard to combat tactically having both mobile and strong static elements, it works well in escalation and also is strong at take and hold and both defensive and offensive tactical variations.
 

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Hmm that many assault cannons, first off they're just the ap to mangle fire warriors quickly. Second they're going to get scoring hits on the tau vehicles. The Dreads&Co can just walk up at leasure and destroy the tau tanks that pop into view, then procede to slaughter the firewarriors. A few Dreds are going to go down to the railguns, but once the tanks are put down that's the end of the meaningfull resistance. There might also be a few lucky fusion shots, but getting that close will spell the doom for any crisis suit that tries.

Easy victory for the Space Marines
 

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Tau advantages.

1. Hammerheads
They can destroy the dreadnaughts and the landspeeders easily. 1 immoblized lanspeeder makes a whole squad useless.

2. Firewarriors can take out speeders

3. Crisis suits can take out the dreadnaughts

4. Kroot and devilfish firewarriors can kill scouts, shooting can hurt speeders.

Marines Advantages

1. The assault cannon goodeness can rip the Tau to shreds.


The marines rely too much on light armour which can be easily destroyed by the Tau. However I think that the speeders will rip the Tau to shreds and the Tau will be busy with the speeders and the dreadnaughts could stay hidden while advancing. However the Tau have more units that can take the objective and the marines don't have anything that can take the objective with certainty. Someone will have to sway me as I can't decide right now
 

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The deep down truth
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Hmmm the Dreads will go down quick to the XV8,s especially the Shas'O,s the Stealths will hurt the Dreads and the lanspeeders.
The assault cannons are only 24" range which means the HH can easily keep out of range of most of them, even the landspeeders can only move 12" and fire the weapons and the only really vulnerable units are the 2 FW squads and Kroot but in this mission shooting at them will take the heat of the important units (the HH, XV8,s and Stealths)

The landspeeders are really vulnerable to the submunnition of the HH as they are open topped and have to reamain within 4" of each other, if one is immobalised or stunned the rest of the squadron has to stay put or leave the immobo speeder and if they do its classed as destroyed they are even vulnerable to the FW pulse rifles and the 30" range will make it very dangerous for them to get close, in fact they are vulnerable to just about every thing in the tau list.

The Dreads are the main weakness for this list, they are really slow and short ranged and the XV8's and HH will really punish them, I would concentrate the XV8's on these and the HH on the speeder squads, the Kroot can be used to prevent the infiltrating Scouts getting to close (they infiltrate as well and just having them close to the FW will be threatning) and they are really vulnerable to the subs round only having a 4+ save (1 hit dead unit).

The Marines will struggle to get the range with the Dreads to take down the HH and with the skimmer rule and decoys they are even harder, the DF with FW can pursue either the speeders or the scouts and the XV8's will be picking of dreads with impunity (twin linked Fusions hurt dreads), the Stealths will just do what they do best harrass but will mainly be concentrating on the speeders and trying to limit their movement by getting stunned results at mimimum. The fact that the speeders are in squadrons can really be used against them and the Tau have so many weapons that can hurt them they only need one stuned result and either the squads screwed for a turn or they lose one (either way good result)

Really think this Marine list will struggle to damage the Tau, they have the manouverability to avoid most of the assault cannons and the Tau list is so geared towards taking down this sort of armour its frightning.

Once those speeders are taken out (which will happen) the Tau can concentrate on getting units to the centre and use the HH and stealths/XV8's to mop up the rest of the very slow list. The XV8's all count as seperate units, so do the drones, Stealths, HH and DF so it should be easy to keep enough alive to claim the centre.

Tau victory no problem
 

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Ahh good point about the pulse rifles vs speeders. Hmm maby not as cut and dry as I thought. the first to shoot wins. Hmm maby not so easy as I thought. Still I think I stick with my original vote, but not by so great of margin.

Umm land speeders are NOT open topped cause the passengers are in powerarmor.

Foot-slogging tau are doomed to eat assault cannon and die. The rest? Well they're running from shooting, not assault.
If they move to avoid the fire, the themselves are not shooting. So if they move to avoid the fire as you argue they are unable to hurt the marines back and the non-moble elements will be torn up.
 

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Let's see: (assault cannons vs the front armor of hammer heads)
15 assault cannons
60 shots
40 hits
7 rending hits (glancing due to Skimmers moving fast)
14/9 dead hammer heads (this is NOT an estimate. Don't try to argue "I've never lost more than 1 in a battle, so I couldn't ever lose more than one."

By odds, they'll take out all 3 hammerheads by turn 2. Or, alternatively they could slaughter kroot or firewarriors.

I vote Space marines
 

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The deep down truth
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JORMAGI said:
Umm land speeders are NOT open topped cause the passengers are in powerarmor.

Foot-slogging tau are doomed to eat assault cannon and die. The rest? Well they're running from shooting, not assault.
If they move to avoid the fire, the themselves are not shooting. So if they move to avoid the fire as you argue they are unable to hurt the marines back and the non-moble elements will be torn up.
Ahh good point forgot about the power armour rule, well spotted.
Huh the two units of foot slogging Tau wont be running they will be the soft target that the Marines wont be able to resist, they dont need to move with 30" range pulse rifles and the Kroot will take anyone who come close, the firebase of static FW are there for a reason (bait), as for the rest of the tau list all of it can shoot and move, the HH have multi trackers which means they are treated as fast vehicles and can fire all weapons (1 railgun and 2 defensive weapons) and still move 12", the XV8,s, Stealth ,Drones and DF can all move and fire so if your referring to these units not shooting when moving well your wrong.
None of the Tau will be running they will be armour hunting those slow dreads and even though he speeders are not classed as open topped (my bad) they will still fall like nine pins to the Tau firepower with that crappy AV10.

And by the way Wamp all those 15 assault cannons wont be in range (they are only 24") if half of them are it means the dreads are in range of the XV8,s (not good) so your 60 shots is just rubbish, if they are all targeting the HH then who is targeting the XV8,s who will by the way be reducing those Dreads to smoking piles of scrap, you cant quote silly figures like that, no way are the marines going to get in 60 shots in one turn never gonna happen. By the way I have never lost more than 1 but that does not mean the HH have not been made useless (weapon destroyed etc) the point I was making is HH are extremely hard to take out thats all.
If your going to quote figures and dazzle us with math at least use a credible scenario 60 shots in one turn against all 3 HH no way. Try factoring in movement, LOS, obscured, 1st turn losses to marines etc etc and then come back with some usefull figures.
 

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i vote space marines
-the assault cannons are not that vulnerable, and will anihilate the tau ground forces very fast. when turned against the tanks they can also take them out eventually, and far before all the speeders and dreads would have died.
 

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tiaxrulesall said:
i vote space marines
-the assault cannons are not that vulnerable, and will anihilate the tau ground forces very fast. when turned against the tanks they can also take them out eventually, and far before all the speeders and dreads would have died.
I am actually wondering if anyone is looking at the Tau list or understands how to play Tau, the mission is not being taken into account, nor is the fact that the dreads are painfully slow, the speeders are in squadrons and can be crippled very easily even by pulse rifle fire, no one seems to understand how dangerous the Xv8,s are to the armour and also the footslogging part of the list is not important in this scenario, nor how hard it is to actually kill the Shas'o's with Drones, XV8's, stealths and HH.
The Assault cannons are very vulnerable and are very short ranged, the heavy bolters on the speeders are more of a threat actually.


I am dissapointed really, I expected a bit more from votewar, but Tau just dont seem to be rated unless its pure mech and a lot of the Tau tactics just dont seem that well understood. everyone just seems to be focusing on the Assualt cannons to the exclusion of all else(assault cannons are ok but c'mon they aren't the be all and end all) and rending which to be honest is not that dangerous to tau if they are played properly.
 

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rikimaru said:
I am actually wondering if anyone is looking at the Tau list or understands how to play Tau, the mission is not being taken into account, nor is the fact that the dreads are painfully slow, the speeders are in squadrons and can be crippled very easily even by pulse rifle fire, no one seems to understand how dangerous the Xv8,s are to the armour and also the footslogging part of the list is not important in this scenario, nor how hard it is to actually kill the Shas'o's with Drones, XV8's, stealths and HH.
The Assault cannons are very vulnerable and are very short ranged, the heavy bolters on the speeders are more of a threat actually.

I am dissapointed really, I expected a bit more from votewar, but Tau just dont seem to be rated unless its pure mech and a lot of the Tau tactics just dont seem that well understood. everyone just seems to be focusing on the Assualt cannons to the exclusion of all else(assault cannons are ok but c'mon they aren't the be all and end all) and rending which to be honest is not that dangerous to tau if they are played properly.
I think most people here understands Tau. Honestly, the problem seems to be that you haven't played many good players (comments like the fact that you've never lost more than one hammerhead which are fairly easy to kill, make this apparent), so you don't know the ways in which Tau strategy can be countered effectively.

So if people vote against your list, take a hint and improve it instead of complaining that your list is misunderstood.

Also, the firewarriors aren't at all dangerous to the skimmers. Why? Because the firewarriors can all be killed in one turn, so they won't be firing back.

And rending means that they can slaughter the hammerheads. VERY quickly. Maybe a few of them will die, but not enough and after that they can start massacring firewarriors and

Also, rikimaru, I have a request for this battle. Try NOT to answer every single point. You don't need to counter every point, this isn't a debate, it's a discussion. Counter the pertinent ones. Try to limit yourself to 3 posts.

This could probably be taken rudely, so I apoligize if that's the case. I'm just not very diplomatic over the internet.
 
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rikimaru said:
I am actually wondering if anyone is looking at the Tau list or understands how to play Tau, the mission is not being taken into account, nor is the fact that the dreads are painfully slow, the speeders are in squadrons and can be crippled very easily even by pulse rifle fire, no one seems to understand how dangerous the Xv8,s are to the armour and also the footslogging part of the list is not important in this scenario, nor how hard it is to actually kill the Shas'o's with Drones, XV8's, stealths and HH.
Well I certainly understand it because Tau is one of the 2 armies I face most.

The Assault cannons are very vulnerable and are very short ranged, the heavy bolters on the speeders are more of a threat actually.
They're short ranged, sure, but most of them can deep strike so it doesn't matter.

(assault cannons are ok but c'mon they aren't the be all and end all)
i'm not a huge assault cannon user (except when I go all-ravenwing), but in this case, yes, they are.

I am dissapointed really, I expected a bit more from votewar, but Tau just dont seem to be rated unless its pure mech and a lot of the Tau tactics just dont seem that well understood. everyone just seems to be focusing on the Assualt cannons to the exclusion of all else and rending which to be honest is not that dangerous to tau if they are played properly.
Yeah, but here's the thing - there's almost NOTHING the tau can do about the rending. As for being dissappointed, well too bad. There's always users who just vote for their own army or the army they like most, and it's a fact of life. It happens to most of us. But I have to say that I'm not doing that.

1 immoblized lanspeeder makes a whole squad useless.
No it doesn't. If a speeder is downed, the others can leave it and count it as destroyed.

The Speeders can deep-strike, kill the crisis suits and stealths, and the dreads can take care of the firewarriors. That leaves hammer heads and other assorted non-sm killing stuff, and I doubt they can wipe out all 6 dreads and 9 LSTs just like that.

the mission is not being taken into account
The SM player can deep strike a whole lot of stuff and inflltrate, so I think it IS being taken into account.

the speeders are in squadrons and can be crippled very easily even by pulse rifle fire, no one seems to understand how dangerous the Xv8,s are
And you don't understand how dangerous the LSTs are. They can deep-strike and kill any single unit in the tau list, and with the firewarriors being the most dangerous, there you go. Hammer heads will at most kill 1 LST per turn because they can only cause glancing hits and a glancing hit has a 1/3 chance of blowing up a LST. The firewarriors, of course, are more dangerous, but they can easily be wiped out on the turn the LSTs show up.
 

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Hey Ezekial, you going to vote? You seem to be taking a side, but you haven't voted.
 

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Ok, first a look at each army's units.
Space Marines

Landspeeders:
Against Firewarriors
A single landspeeder will kill 4 Firewarriors. That means a full squadron of landspeeders will kill a squad of Firewarriors, assuming no cover.
What does this mean? If space marines get first turn, the Firewarriors are pretty much worthless. As there are 3 squads of Landspeeders, I doubt the Tau player will be able to block line of sight from all 3 squadrons to any of his 1 squads. So that leaves cover.
Unless the Tau player manages to get 4+ cover for his firewarriors, then they will be rendered a non-scoring unit. They will also have to make a morale check or start falling back.
If the Tau manages to get 4+ cover (reasonable for one squad, but not all 3), then they will be at half strength, and still need to pass a morale check to not fall back.
Either way, the Landspeeders will spell game over for the Firewarriors. How this turns out if Tau go first, I'll cover with the Firewarriors.
Against Hammerheads
A full squadron of landspeeders will get 4/3 glances (I'm always assuming the Hammerheads have moved more than 6 inches) . This means 3 landspeeders will destroy a Hammerhead 2/9 of the time (taking into account decoy launchers). However, while the chances of actaully destroying a Hammerhead are low, the chances of either destroying a weapon or stunning are much better, 8/9.
So, that means for each landspeeder squadron, 1 hammerhead should be either destroyed, stunned, or have it's railgun destroyed.
Each one bodes well for the Marines. A stunned hammerhead wont be firing the next turn and[/] wont be moving, meaning the Marines will be able to penetrate it. A Hammerhead without its railgun works wonders for the survival of Dreadnoughts. Basically, that Hammerhead is only useful for contesting the center and shooting speeders...or if it's lucky, getting rear armor on a dread.
The main problem I see is range. However, this means the speeders can spend turn one destroying Firewarriors and turn two they should be able to move within range.
Once again, the Speeders will be effective.
Against Kroot
Hahaha! See what Speeders do to Firewarriors? They'll do that to Kroot too.
Against Gun Drones
The Drones' invulnerable save is nice, but in terms of surviving, they'll do just as good as Firewarriors in hard cover. That means 6 dead Drone from 1 speeder squadron.
That thins out the "screen" for the Tau HQ's, and means the Drones will now be at LD 4. However, I think the Dreadnaughts would serve better in this regard, thanks to their slower speed with overall less range.
Against Crisis Suits (including Commanders)
The rending from the assault cannons is two wounds, meaning the non HQ's will be downed by a squadron (putting a lot of dakka to waste, I might add).
However, against the HQ's, the speeders (including the rends) should "kill" 5 wounds...meaning if the Tau HQ's stay in their sights too long, they're good as dead.
Against Stealth Suits
A full squadron will kill all but 1. Of course, an unlucky "night sight" roll will spell doom for said speeder squadron, so they should get as close as possible to ensure things don't screw up. And if they're that close, they'll need to watch out for other Tau dakka.
In general
No matter what the speeders shoot at, they're gonna tear into it. However, they wont take return fire too well (although if they manage to eliminate the Firewarriors first, that will help a lot).

Dreadnoughts:
Against Firewarriors
If they actually get in range, that's about a bit short of 3(25/9) dead firewarriors. Decent, and they're impervious to the return fire, but I think the landspeeders will do better here.
Against Hammerheads
A dread will get 4/9 glances, which means a 9.9% chance to destroy a Hammerhead. The chance to get a stunned or weapon destroyed is roughly 14.8%. So the chances for a Dread to get something besides Crew Shaken (which is nice, but the others are just that much better) is about 25%. You can read the Landspeeder entry to see why stunned and weapon destroyed are good, even though they're no vehicle destroyed.
The big problem here is range. I don't see the hammerheads wandering so close to so many assault cannons when they can just hang back. If there are still dreads remaining by turn 6 (I doubt it) they could get a round of fire on Hammerheads moving to get withing the center, but that's a big if.
Against Kroot
Like Firewarriors except Kroot wont get a save agains the storm bolter. Still about 3 dead Kroot a turn (not taking into account cover).
Against Gun Drones
About 2 dead a turn. Once again, not as spectacular as the speeder squadrons but do remember this is one dread of 6.
Against Crisis Suits (including Commanders)
They should take off 4/3 wounds per a round of shooting. Actually getting line of sight or a clear shot (no cover) will probably prove hard though. This is just arbitrary, but figure that cover/line of sight negates the results of half the dreadnoughts. So about 2/3 wounds per a dread. Meaning about 3 dreads to take out an elite Crisis, meaning 1 turn (assuming all Dreads are up) can take out 2 elite Crisis.
Against Stealth Suits
They'll average a little more than 2/3 dead stealth suits, per a Dread firing. Since the dreads are much slower, they're also gonna have trouble with the "night sight" rolls. Probably the worst target for the Dreads.
In general
They are slower than the speeders, and their number don't seem so high, but remember that this is looking at one dread instead of 3 speeders. There are 6 dreads in the list. The small amounts add up, and also will result in less "wasted shots".
Their armor will help a lot, as the Tau will only have so much Dakka to through at the dreads (especially with the speeders stirring up things).

Scouts:
Against Firewarriors
Each squad deals will kill about about 1.25 Firewarriors. Not only can they clean up the mess the Speeders would leave, they should pin about 1 squad (1/3 chance for each scout squad). The pinning will actually be handy if the speeders fire at another target (although I feel that each turn the firewarriors are on the table, things will get that much tougher for the Marines).
Against Hammerheads
Can't touch em (bar side/rear, but I dont think that will happen as the scouts are static).
Against Kroot
These are the golden targets for the scouts. In cover, they'll do about as well as firewarriors, but out of cover they lose 2.5 to a scout squad, totaling 7.5 a turn. They'll should also fail 1 of the 3 pinning tests they'll be required to make. Keeping them locked down will also spare the speeders from small arms fire, which is always good.
Against Gun Drones
Just like firing at Firewarriors. Although, being static, getting a bead on the Drones will probably be difficult due to Jump-Shoot-Jump. Although, with 3 squads, I figure at least one could draw line of sight (since there are 2 Drone squads to fire at). If they manage to pin the drones (should happen about once every two turns) that will also leave the guarded Tau HQ in some trouble. Either jump back and hope speeders don't backside him, or stay in the center and hope the drones can weather another round of shooting.
Against Crisis Suits (including Commanders)
Thanks to Jump-Shoot-Jump getting a target will prove harder. In fact, a scout squad will only average 2.5/3 wounds. Not great, but that's a decent chance to take off a wound, and sooner or later a crisis suit will fail it's pinning test (assuming that it doesn't already have 1 wound). Nothing spectacular, but if there are no better targets (kroot>drones) it doesn't hurt to throw some more lead at the suits.
Against Stealth Suits
The "night sight" rolls mean the scouts will almost never be able to fire at stealths. The only time they should fire at them is if the stealths are the only infantry units in range and line of sight.
In general
Since there is a decent amount of sniper fire (18 shots) and they are dealing mostly with 4+ (either through armor or cover), they should do decent. It also helps that they can pin the Tau fairly easily (Lower leadership, and not fearless). I don't think they'll be stars, but they should perform well.

Master
Yeah right. I honestly doubt this guy will do anything, and I think the list creator knew that, and (wisely) kept him barebones.

Tau

Firewarriors:
Against Landspeeders
Ok, if Firewarriors don't get first turn....I doubt there will be many left. If they do, they'll all fire at Landspeeders. I think the Marine player can easily deploy so that 1 squadron (I think he could hide all 3, but lets say 1) is out of range or line of sight or whatever, leaving 1 Firewarrior squad without a target.
So Firewarriors shooting will do....2 glances and 2 penetrates (as we're pretending Tau go first), split between 2 squadrons. I'm going to treat stunned and immobilized as destroyed, as I believe the Marine would want to get moving as fast as possible (which he can do, but anything that can't move with the squad is treated as destroyed). So 2 Squadrons will be hit, each losing about 2 speeders. Taking out almost half of the speeder force is pretty good, and the Hammerheads/Crisis Suits would probably be able to mop up the rest.
However, this is assuming first turn goes to Tau (I don't think the Firewarriors will be around if the Marine gets first turn) and that the Marine isn't able to deploy his speeders out of range/los of the Firewarrios (being fast attack, shouldn't be that hard, and since they're skimmers, they could easily bypass terrain to still be in range on their turn).
Against Dreadnoughts
They're not getting shots on the rear, so they best they can do is scratch the paint.
Against Scouts
Each squad could kill 2 scouts a turn, but if the Firewarriors are firing at scouts and not speeders, I feel the Marines have won already.
Against the Master
What a worthless target! He's slow, doesn't count as a scoring unit, and doesn't really have a bite. The only time the master should be a target is if there are no speeders/scouts to fire at.
In general
If they don't get first turn, I don't think they'll get any turns. And even if they do get first turn, good deployment by the Marine will rob them of targets.

Hammerheads:
Against Landspeeders
If Tau go first, that means the Hammerheads take out 2 speeders no problem. Range isn't an issue, and with their own skimmer move, line of sight shouldn't be either. Once the speeders get moving, the Hammerheads will only kill 2/3 speeders. At this point, the Dreads will be better targets
Against Dreadnoughts
They get 2 hits, and unless they roll 1's, they penetrate. That means 1 flat out dead, and another disabled in some way. They should focus fire on the venerable dreads, as a reroll on the pentrating chart (while nice) isn't as great as a reroll on the glancing chart (which they're more likely to get against the plasma fire from the Crisis suits).
Against Scouts
The pieplates will pretty much kill all but 1 man. But the scouts probably will be sitting still the entire game, so unless the dreads and speeders are all down (as they can contest center easily), the Hammerheads have better targets.
Against the Master
Why? There are so many better targets. Like every other Marine unit.
In general
As long as they can avoid heavy assault cannon fire, they should do well and be annoying as always.

Drones:
Against Landspeeders
If they can get in range of the Speeders, each Drone squad has about a 74% of downing a landspeeder. However, if they can shoot the landspeeders, the landspeeder can shoot them, and that will hurt a lot more. Of course, they probably wont have better targets, and their main job is to screen the HQ's anyways. I don't expext the drones to last too long, but while they're around they're a nice bonus.
Against Dreadnoughts
They could potentially take out dreads by deepstriking behind, but that would leave the HQ's "naked". Without deepstrike, they're not touching the dreads.
Against Scouts
If they're ever in range of the scouts, it better be because the scouts are making a beeline for the center, or all the other Marine units are dead. Except the Master. He doen't matter.
Against the Master
I suppose they could charge him for fun. Assuming everything else is dead, of course.
In general
They should do their job well, and if they can get in range unscathed they'll probably down a speeder.

Crisis Suits:
Against Landspeeders
Each HQ will has a 69% chance to down a speeder (going along with stunned being an effective destroyed). However, there's also a 69% chance to silence the guns of a speeder, or at least remove the assault cannon.
As for non HQ they'll glance about 1 a turn, meaning around 50% chance to destroy and 50% to reduce/negate firepower.
Against Dreadnoughts
Here the plasma loses much of it's effectiveness, as it will be glancing on 6's. Fusion blasters will get 3/8 penetrate for non HQ, and 5/12 for HQ. I'm just gonna guestimate and say that each crisis will destroy 1/2 a dread, meaning 2 dead dreads if all 4 fire. Not bad, but I think they should focus on the Speeders and leave the Dreads to Railguns.
Against Scouts
They can kill roughly 2/turn (roudning up), but once again, they've got bigger fish to fry.
Against the Master
Since the two HQ's dont count as scoring units, they might as well go hunting after him to try and score some extra victory points. As long as he's the only model left, that is.
In general
The lack of "heavy infantry" would hurt the Crisis Suits, but what's good against heavy infantry is also good againt Light and Medium vehicles, which there are plenty of to go around.

Stealth Suits:
Against Landspeeders
Even with Jump-Shoot-Jump their range is short, but if they ever get a speeder squadron in sight, that's a lot of dakka. The shooting would result in 1 destroyed, 1 shaken, and 1 stunned (basically destroyed) or losing an assault cannon. Of course, the return fire would be rough, and at a close enough range to minimize the chances of the night fight effect doing anything.
Against Dreadnoughts
They're in the same boat as the Firewarriors here. Not gonna touch it.
Against Scouts
They could take out 3 a turn, but getting in range means at least 1, probably 2 dreads are in range of fire, and maybe even charge range. Not a good target.
Against the Master
I think I've ripped on this guy long enough. I'll give the poor sod a break :)
In general
Their main target will be landspeeders, but their short range means they'll have a tough time getting a turn of shooting. When they do, it'll be effective, but they'll have to work for it.

Kroot:
Against Landspeeders
If a speeder stray within range, and the Kroot are at full strength, the should be able to get a glance on it. But I don't think a speeder will stray in range, that the Kroot will be at full strength for long, or that they'll even spend more than 2 turns unpinned.
Against Dreadnoughts
They can't even scratch the paint. They're only chipping it.
Against Scouts
Never gonna get in range. Poor sods probably will probably only be able to move if they get first turn due to these guys.
Against the Master
He's like their kindred spirit (most useless unit), they should have tea with him or something.
In general
Just like the Master, I don't see these guys doing much. Unlike the master, however, they give the scouts a pretty good target. While taking the master didn't really "hurt" the Marine list, I think these guys would have been better used as a Devilfish transport. Then again, thier uselessness is not due to the unit (at least in this case), but to the opposing list. I'm sure they work out better against more conventional armies (then again, I don't think I've seen too many "conventional" armies in this votewar).

Overall
Each list is hard hitting, but can't take return fire.

The Marines will have to dance at the edge and thin out the firewarrior squads before sending the landspeeders closer in. This probably means that the Landspeeders will only be in Heavy Bolter range for the first few turns. The dreads will probably end up firing at crisis suits. Target priority should be elite suits>gun drone screens>HQ's. With 6 dreads, they should at least be able to take out the elite suits. Depending on how hard they're hit, they can work on Drones, but I doubt they'll manage to get to the HQ's. If the stealth suits end up in range, they'll make a fine target as well.

Likewise, the Tau will keep their skimmers at the edge, shooting at Dreads mostly. The Kroot are likely to spend the whole game pinned, and the Firewarriors will probably be thinned out by Heavy bolters. The crisis suits will dance around the dreads and pick them off, although with 6 dreads they'll have to weather some fire.

In the end, I believe the Dreads and Tau infantry will be destroyed. The elite Crisis Suits will be downed, and the Landspeeders will probably be able to take out at least 1 Drone/HQ group. With all those assault cannons, one of the Hammerheads is gonna bit the dust. If some scouts start moving around turn 5 they should be able to contest the center, and at that point most of their targets will be down.

It will be close. For Tau, I figure they'll end up with 2 Hammerheads, the Stealths, and a Drone squad as scoring units. For the Marines, I figure they'll have the 3 scout squads and a speeder squadron.

However, as that's based on averages I'm going to have to give Marines the edge. They'll have a lot more dakka, while the Hammerheads are more likely to fall to bad luck (especially after the Tau player rants about how his rail template will kill half your ork squad, then misses :)). I know it's a pretty crappy reason, but......

I vote Space Marines


*edit*
In the time it took me to type this post, this thread went from 0 replies to 12!!!!
*edit #2*
Removed references to loot counters.
 

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Careful there rikimaru, some of us are vets, and do know about tau. Personally I've payed quite a few RTT's and gone up against the best Tau players in my area. I believe the wamp put it into pretty good perspective. To quote him:

"15 assault cannons
60 shots
40 hits
7 rending hits (glancing due to Skimmers moving fast)
14/9 dead hammer heads"

You can't argue with statistics. At least 1 hammerhead is going down every turn. Even if a few of them are out of range, 1 will still go down.

Terzo also covers it very well in his above post (well done).

Every angle has been pretty much covered.

I vote victory for the Space Marines.
 

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Festo Diata
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You guys gotta be kidding me! This game is in the bag!

Tau Ridiculous Victory

I assume you play on 6' by 4' boards? The range of the Assault Cannon is 24", 1/3 of the range of the 6 foot Railgun! Those Dreadnoughts will never be in range!

The Fire Warriors can be set up in cover and will easily down the Land Speeders. The Crisis will hide and JSJ to put down (I think 2) some Dreadnoughts. The rest is just a matter of time before the Railguns dismantle the rest of the list. It's like stealing candy from a baby.
 

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Dancing Peanuts? You bet!
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I vote Space Marines

Basically the Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts will kill the Tau/Crisis suits before they take their toll. All 3 Hammerheads firing will destroy 1 dread a turn. Whoopee! Maybe less if they go for the venerable ones.

And the thing about the Dreads being outranged? a great help in a mission where they have to close in on an objective. So the hammerheads can sit back and kill their dreadnought a turn, while the others can go sit behind the objective out of LoS, and when anything comes near, kick them in.

Not to mention the land speeders if they go hunting Hammerheads.
 

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The deep down truth
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TheWamp said:
I think most people here understands Tau. Honestly, the problem seems to be that you haven't played many good players (comments like the fact that you've never lost more than one hammerhead which are fairly easy to kill, make this apparent), so you don't know the ways in which Tau strategy can be countered effectively.

So if people vote against your list, take a hint and improve it instead of complaining that your list is misunderstood.

Also, the firewarriors aren't at all dangerous to the skimmers. Why? Because the firewarriors can all be killed in one turn, so they won't be firing back.

And rending means that they can slaughter the hammerheads. VERY quickly. Maybe a few of them will die, but not enough and after that they can start massacring firewarriors and

Also, rikimaru, I have a request for this battle. Try NOT to answer every single point. You don't need to counter every point, this isn't a debate, it's a discussion. Counter the pertinent ones. Try to limit yourself to 3 posts.

This could probably be taken rudely, so I apoligize if that's the case. I'm just not very diplomatic over the internet.
I play many experienced players and have played in many tournys so that answers that point.
I have used this list in various guises(subtle changes) for 3 years with near 90% success rate, the only list type it struggles against is fast nids. So I think I will leave it as it stands thanks.
The HH will not be slaughtered quickly (esp on a 6X4 board) and if you believe that it just shows you dont know much about Tau. I play with and against Marines and I know what the Assault cannon is capable of and also what its limitations are, this list is pure anti Marine. If the dreads come close they wil die so have to stay back so my HH can outrange them, if the LS come within 24" of any Tau (apart from Stealths) they will be in serious danger. This Marine list is so vulnerable to Tau fire its to dangerous for them to get in range for the assault cannons to be effective.

Some other points raised in other replies.

The speeders will be crippled by the Tau shooting, if they leave a speeder behind its destroyed (good) if they stay put they are vulnerable either way good result for me

If the Dreads stay put I have enough mobility to get LOS and kick their asses, plus I have plenty apart from HH that can kill them (check the list). I have enough anti armour to kill 4 dreads a turn no problems what so ever.

If the FW are wiped out in two turns that means two turns of assault cannons etc not hitting the important stuff, so again good. The Landspeeder squads can only hit one target per squad and I have 8 units that can damage all the marine armour. (the dreads wont be in range for most of the Tau units). Also the FW are dangerous with 30" range STR5 weapons if they are ignored they can take Speeders down, if they are not ignored they take fire away from the HH, XV8's etc which is dangerous for the Speeders (so your wrong they are very very dangerous, its called tactical usage). The LS squad is a big disadvantage against this Tau list as subs, pulse rifles, BC and plasma/fusion can all take them down fast and I only have to inflict one stunned result to affect the whole squad.

I thought Dreads could only DS by drop pod (no drop pods in this list) so whats DSing?

The Tau can do plenty to avoid the Assault cannons like stay out of range, split fire, get in cover (FW & Kroot), JSJ etc etc

The Scouts are a really really bad choice against 3 HH with subs and Kroot, 4+ saves = dead scouts.

The Marine list is so disadvantaged its funny, the dreads may as well not be there, the LS squads are vulnerable and I can keep most of my list alive, the only vulnerable things are the FW squads and I dont care if they die. I can run rings around this Marine list and take the centre at will.

This really would not worry me in the slightest fighting this Marine list (the previous Eldar battle was a closer thing), but its obvious the all conquering rending myth is swaying everyone and the points I am making are for the most part falling on deaf ears. so whatever.

P.S no your post was not rude, a bit presumptous perhaps but not rude.

Edit just one more point, I dont have to destroy the dreads I only have to take the assualt cannon and they are useless, same goes for the Speeders, so destroying them is not even a necessitie, as long as those cannons go down the Tau are a lot safer.
 

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Answering your deepstrike question, all the LSTs can deepstrike.

It seems like everyone is sticking to ideal situations.

Will every marine assault cannon have a target on turn 1? No. Will enough marine units survive that most of their assault cannons have targets by turn 2? No.

Will every Tau unit have a target on turn 1? No. Do the Tau have enough shooting to kill 3 dreads and 4-5 landspeeders per turn? No.

I agree that the dreads must be in LOS to get the 50-60 shots most people are talking about, so if the dreads walk out and shoot on turn 1, about half of them will be gone turn 2 ... they don't have the range to get rid of those railguns.

I vote Tau, after a bloodbath. If you shoot at 6 dreads, you won't have enough shooting to take down 9 landspeeders, and vice versa.

If some of those venerable dreads had MLs and a tankhunter skill or two, I would vote marines.

Sabre
 

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The deep down truth
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Jesus Terzo I get moaned at for big posts but wow thats huge.
Ok, Terzo not gonna go through all your points but you should really check some obvious things, such as 'Loot counters' its 'take and hold' there are no loot counters to contest, its about getting the most scoring units to the centre of the table, something Tau will do well.
Gun drones dont have invulnerable saves.
Rending does not take two wounds of an XV8 it takes 1 same as anything else.

there are other points but you get the point if your gonna comment at least get the basics correct like the mission.
I mean i assume this battle would take place on a 6X4 board, the set up is 12" from board edge so the the dreads are out ranged straight away, the speeders will not be able to take out much 1st turn simply because of the amount of options for the Tau to deploy (a whole 6 ft board edge), the Tau can use the range of the railguns and the mobility of the other units to stay pretty much undamaged and I have 2 infiltrating units to counter the snipers and can even keep units back to DS to avoid casualtys(3 or even 4th turn rolls will benefit Tau no end). The mission is a big plus for the Tau, but its not being factored in by others properly.
This game is an easy Tau victory just wish I could play a few of you Marine players to show you, but hey its been good debating it.
By the way Terzo not trying to be funny in any way with you bud, but the faults really undermine a lot of your points especially the mission error. oh and stop using that Dakka phrase its annoying
 
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