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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey, im planning on (in future) to make a 2k army list involving 5 war machines and was wondering if it would be too much points?

I would be taking the following...
Cannon: Rune of Reloading
100 Points

Bolt Thrower, Rune of Burning, Rune of Penetrating. Engineer
90 Points

Bolt Thrower. Rune of Penetrating, Engineer
85 Points

Organ Gun
120 points
Gyrocopter

140 Points

Total: 535 Of Warmachines

Along this i wanna take a Lord, 3 units of CC 2 Units or ranged, possibly miners whatever fits really.

Would this work or too much points on Artillary?
 

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I think its a really difficult question to ask, because its more or less based upon personal preferences...

Personally I'd like to have atleast as many CC units, as I have shooting units.

But I can suggest dropping the rune of reloading on the cannon in favour of rune of forging. Way better for the cannon.

And btw...the Gyro is in fact, not a war machine, so its only 4 :act-up:

But to your question. Yeah, it will work. As long as the dice are with you. Because if you only kill half as many as you ought to do, its comming to bite you hard.
 

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Blistering Barnacles!
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Nothing wrong with that at all. Alrik has it all spot on, especially about the Rune of Forging, its s standard upgrade.
 

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depends on whom you are up against.

Remember that a lot of Dwarf shooting troops are equal to or superior to a lot of armies regular troops, like the Skaven, Undead, Empire/bretts, etc in CC. By that, I mean, for example.....

in CC, a Dwarf Thunderer IMHO is superior most Empire and brettonian regular foot troops; most skaven that are non-storm vermin; zombie and skeleton troops; etc, etc. So, let's say you were using a gunline army to the exclusion of most superior infantry, and you were playing the Skaven, for example, then their Clan Rat troops and less are probably inferior to your Thunderers in CC battles. You would only have to worry about (aside from their magic and other things they have) the things like their own war machines; their rat ogres, storm vermin, etc.

If you were to concentrate fire from your gun lines onto an enemies superior troops, then in theory they would only be able to cc you with troops that are inferior to your guys already. This could be a marked advantage.

The system repeats itself. For example, vs GreenSkins, concentrate on BigUns/Black Orcs and Boar boyz first; Orc Boyz second; let the Goblins close range with you, they are not going to drive you off in CC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for reply guys, my friend might start up an O&G Army and he said if 1 want, we can go halvies on the battle for skull pass

1 getting started booklet
1 pocket-sized Warhammer 7th edition Rulebook
2 (pretty shitty) standard plastic rulers
the 3 plastic templates required for Warhammer
10 six-sided (d6) dice
artillery and scatter dice
40 Night Goblin Spearmen
20 Night Goblin Archers
10 Forest Goblin Spider Riders
2 Night Goblin characters (Big Boss and Shaman)
1 Troll
12 Dwarf Warriors
10 Dwarf Thunderers
8 Dwarf Miners
1 Dwarf Cannon with crew
2 Dwarf characters (Thane and Dragon Slayer)
Dwarf and Night Goblin themed scenery

Which would suit what i want and need perfectly coz i was planning on getting 8 minners dwarf cannon, 10 thunderers 12 warriors (and i can make a small unit of longbeards) and a thane and all of this for only 50 aus $$ I have already got the battalian box so i would have after this

1 Organ Gun
1 Cannon
20 Warriors
12 Longbeards
26 Thunderers (Any idea what i can use the spare 6 for?)
8 Dwarf Miners
1 Dragon Slayer
1 Thame

Oh and BTW, i knew there was a rune that lets me re-roll missfires i just didn't find it till now :D thanks :)
 

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Blistering Barnacles!
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in CC, a Dwarf Thunderer IMHO is superior most Empire and brettonian regular foot troops; most skaven that are non-storm vermin; zombie and skeleton troops; etc, etc. So, let's say you were using a gunline army to the exclusion of most superior infantry, and you were playing the Skaven, for example, then their Clan Rat troops and less are probably inferior to your Thunderers in CC battles. You would only have to worry about (aside from their magic and other things they have) the things like their own war machines; their rat ogres, storm vermin, etc.
This sounds largely incorrect to me. Just because Thunderers are better fighters than clanrats, doesn't mean you can pass it off. Rats will be outnumbering you 3:1 and will more often than not win combats and sometimes break your gunline. In fact, a horde army often works wonders against a gunline as you just don't have enough shots to kill them quick enough. I bet you with the current state of affairs a pure clanrat and slave list could destroy most gunlines, so DO worry about basic troops.

Hex
 

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This sounds largely incorrect to me. Just because Thunderers are better fighters than clanrats, doesn't mean you can pass it off. Rats will be outnumbering you 3:1 and will more often than not win combats and sometimes break your gunline. In fact, a horde army often works wonders against a gunline as you just don't have enough shots to kill them quick enough. I bet you with the current state of affairs a pure clanrat and slave list could destroy most gunlines, so DO worry about basic troops.

Hex
But you can only have X amount actually fighting at anyone time. Yes, a large horde of lets say clan rats make it to CC vs a unit of 10 thunderers. the WS/S/T/ArmorSave of the Clan Rats is going to be 3/3/3/+5 vs the Thunderers of 4/3/4/+6.....

when you do the mathematics, it means the Skaven are 1/3 to hit and 1/3 to wound vs a Dwarf Thunderer whereas the Thunderer (which would have gotten to fire as their charge reaction anyhow) would be 2/3 to hit; 1/2 to wound....substantially a better odd's to win that combat, although you are right that the superior numbers of a ClanRat unit with command group could give it an edge.

Using my die roller right now, a 30 unit strong ClanRat unit with a 6 front/5 ranks behind it charging a unit of 10 Thunderers deployed in a single rank, both with command groups......

FIRE reaction to the charge- I just rolled what would have been 8 hits on the Clan Rats.......5 wounds...no armor save via gunpowder weapons......there goes 1 rank but I think their LD would still be at 10. ClanRats down to 25 already but misses the 25% threshold to cause a panic check.

Skaven 6 CC WS 3 attacks vs WS of 4 vs the Thunderers = no hits.
Thunderers= 4 hits, 3 wounds.....1 armor save on the clan rats part= 2 dead skaven.

I think the Dwarves win the round.

And we are talking yes a 3-1 advantage here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Another question so as to not double post "New topic" What do you guys think about the Grudge Thrower.
Like tell me about expirences with it and if its worth to take (against some armies) over a cannon or 2 bolt throwers?
I have one person telling me its bad don't take it and another 1 saying CATAPULTS YEEEES.

Thanks in advance you guys have been really helpful so far :)
 

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But you can only have X amount actually fighting at anyone time. Yes, a large horde of lets say clan rats make it to CC vs a unit of 10 thunderers. the WS/S/T/ArmorSave of the Clan Rats is going to be 3/3/3/+5 vs the Thunderers of 4/3/4/+6.....

when you do the mathematics, it means the Skaven are 1/3 to hit and 1/3 to wound vs a Dwarf Thunderer whereas the Thunderer (which would have gotten to fire as their charge reaction anyhow) would be 2/3 to hit; 1/2 to wound....substantially a better odd's to win that combat, although you are right that the superior numbers of a ClanRat unit with command group could give it an edge.

Using my die roller right now, a 30 unit strong ClanRat unit with a 6 front/5 ranks behind it charging a unit of 10 Thunderers deployed in a single rank, both with command groups......

FIRE reaction to the charge- I just rolled what would have been 8 hits on the Clan Rats.......5 wounds...no armor save via gunpowder weapons......there goes 1 rank but I think their LD would still be at 10. ClanRats down to 25 already but misses the 25% threshold to cause a panic check.

Skaven 6 CC WS 3 attacks vs WS of 4 vs the Thunderers = no hits.
Thunderers= 4 hits, 3 wounds.....1 armor save on the clan rats part= 2 dead skaven.

I think the Dwarves win the round.

And we are talking yes a 3-1 advantage here.
How do you figure that the dwarves just won? According to your rolls, the skaven have just won combat by 1 thanks to combat res (Skaven:2 ranks, standard, outnumber - Dwarfs no ranks, standard and 2 kills).
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
How do you figure that the dwarves just won? According to your rolls, the skaven have just won combat by 1 thanks to combat res (Skaven:2 ranks, standard, outnumber - Dwarfs no ranks, standard and 2 kills).
I think he means point wise, unless ofc the dwarfs fail their ld test and run and are caught or off the board : /

But, my dwarfs are all always in 2 ranks on a heal giving +2 more CR (Raised Groun, 1 Rank)
 

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Your Math is no where near what you should predict at all for how that battle works out!

First Off... I've never seen a Skaven player run his rats 6 wide... they need numbers as well as to save table space if they go horde army (which with the newest book might not even be the best list to play anymore anyways - different topic though - I digress).

2nd off:
Quoting GMJoeSolarte "when you do the mathematics, it means the Skaven are 1/3 to hit " WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THAT!!!!
Lets run this through...
Going with your six wide though:
6 ws3 attacks against Ws4 will, using correct averages: will establish 3 hits on average.
That then goes to factoring out from S3 to T4 needing fives. Using averages again your going to get 1 wound out of that. Now depending on whether the dwarf player put shields on the thunderers - he either has a 4+ save or 6+ save. So you have at best a 50% chance of doing a wound with an upwards of a 83% chance of doing a wound if no shield is taken. If we go with you 6+ save that you give... odds are good thats a wound in the skaven favor.

Now dwarves going back....
you'll have 7 attacks(as one guy in contact died) needing 3s to hit. That, again using averages = 4.62so we will say 5 for sake of easiness and a benefit to the dwarves. Now you need 4s to wound. S3 to T3. That equals to 2.31 wounds.

So for being kind - I'll take your 3 wounds you gave out there with nothing to back it up. Again though - Clarats will normally now have a 4+ save (LA, HW and Shield). So they save 1.5 of those - again favor to the dwarves 2 wounds hit.

But that doesn't mean the dwarves win the combat round! FAR FROM IT!!!!
Being generous we will say the dwarf player makes his save and the skaven only saves 1 of the 3 wounds.

So just because the dwarf player has a 1 wound advantage he wins??? WHAT????
Static Res is a needed factor here.
Dwarf Player - Thunderers static res - MAYBE a +1 for being on a hill. Thats the only thing - no one ever gives thunderers a standard. Possibly a rank - but then your losing attacks back and the wounds issue will be even more glaring in Skaven favor.
Skaven - 3 ranks, Out number, Standard. That equals out to a static res of 5.

Even if we give the dwarves on the hill thats only a combat res of 2 for him and a 5 for the skaven. SKAVEN WIN BY 3(again assuming the dwarves are on a hill - could easily be a win by 4 if no hill). And thats giving all the breaks to the dwarves. Figure the Dwarf Lord is in range the thunderers are holding on a 7 - the runelord in range on a 6 - on their own a 6. Two dice average of a seven dicates they are running with no dwarf lord in range. And yes - the 3 to 1 advantage just won big. Not huge - but big.

Also - the stand and shoot doesn't factor into combat res - and your numbers are way off there are well. 10 shots - needing 4s to hit (BS 3 so a 4 is needed - plus 1 for dwarf handgun, minus 1 for being charged) means your only going to roll 5 hits. Then 3s to wound means 3.3 wounds. Odds are good the skaven won't save any wounds - but that doesn't matter to him as its not enough for a panic test nor do those count into the combat.

Look at the true averages - I've seen 12 peasant men at arms stop 4 chaose knights in their tracks - I WILL NEVER BANK ON THAT HAPPENING! It actually messed up the guys strategy as he wanted the knights to break through and roll average to get in range of duel knight lances. Again I digress.

Look at the true averages when giving people advice and tell people who are asking how something works out with real numbers and the whole combat figures. For that matter make sure of what you are telling people as your quoted statement above shows your wrong from the start of looking at the combat. Thus your numbers will be off and not even show whats truely happening. STATIC res is how most dwarf units win combat and its the same with major horde armies. That static will almost always allow the skaven player to beat a 10 man thunderer unit straight up - even if we would have allowed the dwarves all 3 wounds to get through they still lose the combat!!!!

So as I've said twice already - LOOK AT THE TRUE AVERAGES!:dance:

Edit: thanks bub - as I was typing this you put that - in agreement with ya - I just went into further explanation!
 

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Your Math is no where near what you should predict at all for how that battle works out!

First Off... I've never seen a Skaven player run his rats 6 wide... they need numbers as well as to save table space if they go horde army (which with the newest book might not even be the best list to play anymore anyways - different topic though - I digress).

2nd off:
Quoting GMJoeSolarte "when you do the mathematics, it means the Skaven are 1/3 to hit " WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THAT!!!!
Lets run this through...
Going with your six wide though:
6 ws3 attacks against Ws4 will, using correct averages: will establish 3 hits on average.
That then goes to factoring out from S3 to T4 needing fives. Using averages again your going to get 1 wound out of that. Now depending on whether the dwarf player put shields on the thunderers - he either has a 4+ save or 6+ save. So you have at best a 50% chance of doing a wound with an upwards of a 83% chance of doing a wound if no shield is taken. If we go with you 6+ save that you give... odds are good thats a wound in the skaven favor.

Now dwarves going back....
you'll have 7 attacks(as one guy in contact died) needing 3s to hit. That, again using averages = 4.62so we will say 5 for sake of easiness and a benefit to the dwarves. Now you need 4s to wound. S3 to T3. That equals to 2.31 wounds.

So for being kind - I'll take your 3 wounds you gave out there with nothing to back it up. Again though - Clarats will normally now have a 4+ save (LA, HW and Shield). So they save 1.5 of those - again favor to the dwarves 2 wounds hit.

But that doesn't mean the dwarves win the combat round! FAR FROM IT!!!!
Being generous we will say the dwarf player makes his save and the skaven only saves 1 of the 3 wounds.

So just because the dwarf player has a 1 wound advantage he wins??? WHAT????
Static Res is a needed factor here.
Dwarf Player - Thunderers static res - MAYBE a +1 for being on a hill. Thats the only thing - no one ever gives thunderers a standard. Possibly a rank - but then your losing attacks back and the wounds issue will be even more glaring in Skaven favor.
Skaven - 3 ranks, Out number, Standard. That equals out to a static res of 5.

Even if we give the dwarves on the hill thats only a combat res of 2 for him and a 5 for the skaven. SKAVEN WIN BY 3(again assuming the dwarves are on a hill - could easily be a win by 4 if no hill). And thats giving all the breaks to the dwarves. Figure the Dwarf Lord is in range the thunderers are holding on a 7 - the runelord in range on a 6 - on their own a 6. Two dice average of a seven dicates they are running with no dwarf lord in range. And yes - the 3 to 1 advantage just won big. Not huge - but big.

Also - the stand and shoot doesn't factor into combat res - and your numbers are way off there are well. 10 shots - needing 4s to hit (BS 3 so a 4 is needed - plus 1 for dwarf handgun, minus 1 for being charged) means your only going to roll 5 hits. Then 3s to wound means 3.3 wounds. Odds are good the skaven won't save any wounds - but that doesn't matter to him as its not enough for a panic test nor do those count into the combat.

Look at the true averages - I've seen 12 peasant men at arms stop 4 chaose knights in their tracks - I WILL NEVER BANK ON THAT HAPPENING! It actually messed up the guys strategy as he wanted the knights to break through and roll average to get in range of duel knight lances. Again I digress.

Look at the true averages when giving people advice and tell people who are asking how something works out with real numbers and the whole combat figures. For that matter make sure of what you are telling people as your quoted statement above shows your wrong from the start of looking at the combat. Thus your numbers will be off and not even show whats truely happening. STATIC res is how most dwarf units win combat and its the same with major horde armies. That static will almost always allow the skaven player to beat a 10 man thunderer unit straight up - even if we would have allowed the dwarves all 3 wounds to get through they still lose the combat!!!!

So as I've said twice already - LOOK AT THE TRUE AVERAGES!:dance:

Edit: thanks bub - as I was typing this you put that - in agreement with ya - I just went into further explanation!

I was going off my head on the numbers (ie, WS 3 of Skaven CR vs Dwarf Thunderer WS of 4= 5's to hit= 33% chance to hit ie 1/3 to hit.

I saw a thread somewhere that had the mathematics of Warhammer listed on it, where it took into account EVERYTHING, and where a player could look at the upcoming outcome and deduce what the chances were of something happening.

I think I came up with a Skaven ClanRat unit of 30 in 6 wide/5 rank because in 5th Edition ,that was what I often did for those pushing a Screaming Bell, but when I think of it I was using it to hit center mass a large 10 wide front of thunderers that I saw used once against me, that was what I was doing in my head when I did all that.

And your right I did reverse the total, I think the skaven do win the battle by a CR of 1, meaning the dwarfs would need an 8 to avoid breaking (9 if the General is near). Now, in a standard dwarf gunline army, both the general and BSB are going to be relatively close so that may mean they need to roll a 9 to avoid breaking now and get the second test (using my die roller on my I-pod really quick......I got a 7, they stand and fight......).

My overall point, though is that Dwarf Thunderers are generally superior to most standard infantry in a lot of armies so depending of course whom you are up against, I personally would not be against putting my Thunders in positions where not only do they get a good firing position if I am running a gunline army anyway, but also are in position to fight in CC if we are up against the right opponent.


Now I really have to digress....because I misread the entire focus of this thread, on Dwarf War Machines.
 

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quik-quik, kill-kill!
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Ws3 vs Ws4 is 4's. With just some average dicerolling ( so no insane luck ) a horde regiment of 20+ would win against a line of 10 thunderers for sure. They start out with a static combat res of 5. a unit of 10 thunderers, on a hill with 1 rank wouldn't win that, let alone a line on normal ground.
Of course thunderers most horde troops, but they are also 3 times more expensive. I'd say there would be 25 rats, and the clanrats would propably have a full command, with the entire unit costing nearly the same as 10 thunderers with shields.


5 warmachines in a 2K dwarf army? No problem at all. I once used 4 bolt throwers in 1500 pts. Most enemies expect to see a gunline anyway when they are going to face dwarfs.
 

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Quoting GMJoeSolarte: "I was going off my head on the numbers (ie, WS 3 of Skaven CR vs Dwarf Thunderer WS of 4= 5's to hit= 33% chance to hit ie 1/3 to hit. "

You really need to go and look at your to hit chart again withing your rule book. WS 3 attempting to Hit WS 4 needs a 4 to hit. Heck... WS 2 SLAVES against WS 4 still needs only a 4 to hit as well. SO ie. SKAVEN SLAVES will most likely have the same result against thunderers going with the numbers I gave you since I gave all the benefits including the wound that the clanrat may have saved. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and tell you that your not completely wrong and that you are just using the To Wound chart and mixing yourself up here. Fair enough?:dance: But seriously - go recheck your To Hit chart.

Again Quoting:"I saw a thread somewhere that had the mathematics of Warhammer listed on it, where it took into account EVERYTHING, and where a player could look at the upcoming outcome and deduce what the chances were of something happening. "

This is easy to do as long as you can count to roughly 10 or so. You can ask someone as they are placing their units what the stats are and thus can figure out what to send up against it and what not to as well as the situation of terrain once you've played the game for a few months it becomes easy at this is nothing more than a numbers game using averages to win (with the occasional terrible round of rolling that laughs at people who use averages... DAMN YOU DICE GODS!!!!!).

I'll concede that Dwarf thunderers are great in combat compared to most other standard infantry. But only if you give them shields and have them supported big time. 10 thunderers will nearly always get run over in due time by a large rank and file unit. You can never expect a small 10man ranged unit of ranged infantry to stand up to a large rank and file - and if you do as I stated in another thread last night - I'll call the funny farm to come and take you away!:dance: 1 on 1 I'lll give the Thunderer to a single Clan Rat... but thats NOT how this game is played. Thus the unit of Clan Rats rolls the thunderers almost all the time.

Now that I've been back to the thread to read the main question (sorry for the off topic correcting that I thought was needed big time here). 5 Warmachines? No where near to much or over the top. I've seen that to be just about the average amount of machines in most tournament armies that need to worry about composition being factored into the scores. Thus comp friendly generally means somewhat play friendly as well. If you'd like to worry about making "fair" armies just go look up the rules fo WPS. I personally hate the system's method to equalize all the armies in the game, but it does make for balanced games in your local store or against your friends in house. 5 machines still gives you enough points to have a decent CC army to allow the machines to do their job while being defended.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Going back to the thunders V Clan rat, (Hey its my thread i can do that ;p) if you look at it this way... the thunders v 30 clan rats. Turn 1 most likley out of range unless they go 1st. Turn 2, they shoot down the clan rats mabey kill 4 cbf doing the maths! Turn 3 Close range shots probally may kill 5-6. Rats Charge stand and shoot may kill... idk 5? so thats 14-15 rats dead (no i didnt do maths only a prediction) leaving them with only 2 ranks left. Now if they thunderrs have a little bit of luck they can actually win combat :)?

What do you guys think of grude throwerz plzzz :p
 

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well thats what I get for not looking at the chart. I thought WS 3 vs WS 4 needed 5's to hit, that would account for the bad math on my part for what it needs TO HIT.

Going back to the subject at hand, which is the Dwarf Warmachines......

I have not read the 7th edition rulebook...but......

1) All warmachines should have 1 rune on them at least, in order to make them magical attacks. This is in "Take on all comers" armies, where there are plenty of things where just the addition of that will grant you the magical abillity to negate etheralness, demonic ward saves, etc.

2) Someone posted earlier that there are new rules for Gyrocopters so I can't really comment on them.

3) Dwarf Cannons are always good. the Rune of Forging works well for them and that makes them magical in their attacks, btw. The Master Rune of Defense (assuming it still works as in previous editions) would be mandatory vs the Dark Elves as you will need it to protect vs their shades.

3) the Grudgethrower, when it is all said and done, is a stone thrower, right? Personally my last gaming group always allowed the Dwarfs to use the Mortar (which IMHO is more dwarf like) and the Empire had stone throwers...a cosmetic detail to be sure but one in the spirit of the army. Anyway, the Rune of Fortune (I think is what it was called) works good for them.

4) the BoltThrower, IMHO, is a better investment then a large unit of crossbowmen. If runed up correctly it can be more effective then crossbows if you know what you are doing. Specifically, if you were going against REALLY large units (ie, Skaven) or vs units that have powerfull monsters. There was a rune combo I saw in action, the rune of fire and the rune of skewering (hits on 2 or more regardless of range, one use) can take out a Dark Elf War Hydra's regeneration on round 1 for the rest of the battle, if the dice are with you you could potentially kill the beast on round 1 with this.

5) the FlameCannon.....great vs Skaven, the Undead, any horde type army.

any other warmachines I am forgetting?
 

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What do you guys think of grude throwerz plzzz :p
Probably the best special choice, especially if you are good at guessing ranges. Give it rune of reloading or something like that. If you're really cheesy, take a pair of these and a pair of organ guns as your warmachines, that's about as good as you can get IMO when it comes to warmachines, seriously.
 

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Grduge Thrower.... umm yeah...
With a Master engineer and runed up correctly they will almost always hit whatever they are shooting at once you figure out how to correctly judge/guess range your machines.
Also, with the way the NEW skaven book works, the rumors for the new Tomb King book coming out eventually, and the rumors for 8th edition next july - the grudge thrower will be devastating to any rank and file as it appears that it will work just like 40K does with all partials just being straight out hits. this machine will just rule the field (not that it can't potentially do this now).

As to Magical Attacks negating certain things... I agree on runing machines up to take on ethereal creatures - they also allow bolt throwers to pop chariots at strength 7. Now as to GMJoeSolarte statement of negating "demonic ward saves" is wrong. The only ward saves you'll negate(for the most part) are Forest Spirits in the Wood Elf army. Demonic Ward saves have had their rules changed and obviously he needs to look this up just like his To Hit chart!:dance:

I truely don't mean to pick on you at all GMJ... but you keep leaving yourself open.:dance:

Rune up your machines in a good manner and your machines will do wonders. I agree with all of GMJ's statements of how to rune up your machines - they are the normal upgrades and work out well. Must have rune upgrades though are:
Rune of forging on a cannon
Rune of penetration on a bolt thrower with an Engineer
Rune of accuracy on a Grudge Thrower with a Master Engineer
After that add what you want and figure out what works best for you.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of the flame cannon - but I know alot of people are, so I'd suggest you use it and come up with your own opinion. You should come out ok from most engagements as long as you make sure you don't get flanked. Which shouldn't be a problem as long as you learn how to deploy. Which again comes in time.
 

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As to Magical Attacks negating certain things... I agree on runing machines up to take on ethereal creatures - they also allow bolt throwers to pop chariots at strength 7. Now as to GMJoeSolarte statement of negating "demonic ward saves" is wrong. The only ward saves you'll negate(for the most part) are Forest Spirits in the Wood Elf army. Demonic Ward saves have had their rules changed and obviously he needs to look this up just like his To Hit chart!:dance:
Ah, I was unaware of that. I have only gotten 7th edition for a few armies so far and Demons is not one of them, I was assuming they still had that. Still, they are good to have to deal with the Etheral though.

I truely don't mean to pick on you at all GMJ... but you keep leaving yourself open.:dance:
Totally ok, if my math is off (my mistake above about WS of 3 vs WS of 4) or now the demonic ward save not being in the game anymore and there is no better way to find out these things then to hear about them on the message boards.

Rune up your machines in a good manner and your machines will do wonders. I agree with all of GMJ's statements of how to rune up your machines - they are the normal upgrades and work out well. Must have rune upgrades though are:
Rune of forging on a cannon
Rune of penetration on a bolt thrower with an Engineer
Rune of accuracy on a Grudge Thrower with a Master Engineer
After that add what you want and figure out what works best for you.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of the flame cannon - but I know alot of people are, so I'd suggest you use it and come up with your own opinion. You should come out ok from most engagements as long as you make sure you don't get flanked. Which shouldn't be a problem as long as you learn how to deploy. Which again comes in time.
And just remember that even the measly 5 points (in 6th edition don't know what it is now in 7th in case I am off here), even the 5 pt Rune of Fire gives your war machines the magic attack abillity, which allows you to hit the etheral, it negates the +2 ward save vs non magical attack that Malekith has in his armor, etc.
 
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