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It's a Trap!
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From what I've seen, VC is no longer a good vehicle killer as glancing doesn't kill vehicles in the supposed "5th edition" unless they are open-topped. The other big thing I noticed was I don't believe stealers can kill the heavier vehicles anymore and the BS uses scatter. So as far as I can tell from rumors and what I've read, if its true, we are a little screwed for anti tank.

Spine gaunt shielding is more effective.

But remember, none of this stuff is truely confirmed. I have yet to actually hear anyone say what the source was for the WIP 5th edition that is floating around. It really has no backing aside from the fact that it looks official.
 

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I beleave they are changing rending to be a 6 on the wound roll not hit roll, big difference but i can understand it, i would like to see the genestealers get a point change for it
 

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Well IMO I'm likeing a lot of the changes so far in 5th or as the rumors have told me so far. I'm very happy now that they have changed prefered enemy to rerolls to hit now as that makes lictors feeder tendrils a lot more usefull on them and actually makes it a viable upgrade on stealers. I'm also looking forward to the rummors about the changes to scuttle and infiltration that allows us to come from a random board edge.

Though nids will for sure be in a hard spot for anti tank that is true. Espically the change to rending we don't even really have a CC anti tank unit anymore (stealers can still hurt land raiders though only if they take toxin sacs) though with force march it may actually be viable to run CC carnifexs.

Though it is still much too early to make any drastic changes to our lists yet as from what I have heard the file is from June 2007 so GW could of changed many things as of now. (Though I'm still hopeing that I can make a cthulu army of nids...all equiped with feeder tendrils and all stealers with scuttle so none of my army is on the board...ahh that would be fun :D ).
 

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Right now, a Force Weapon "slays the target outright." That is not the same as Instant Death.

The point is that Synapse will now protect Tyranids from Force Weapons. That's a pretty significant boon.
Exactly.

--Rumors--
Run! vs Fleet of [Insert word depicting why unit moves faster]:
Yes the Run! rule allows D6 movement during the shooting phase with no shooting or assaulting allowed.
Fleet now allows you to Run! AND Assault. This will allow footsloggers some speed without taking away the tactics of knowing how far you need to move then assault or Run!
-Upgrade IMO(Melee fex and Broodlord now have a chance)
Rending:
The only thing that can stop rending now will be inv save.
-Upgrade IMO.
Tankkilling:
We have a D3 now when we rend after a successful penetrate on a vehicle hit.
-Ouch...
Also with the damage tables becoming one and glancing being a penalty, VC is now not a one shot wonder. Best you can do will be immobolising the tank over and over.
-Ouch....


We've received good and bad, but you need to take into account the whole picture.
 

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Poisonous Mammal
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390 Posts
Right now, a Force Weapon "slays the target outright." That is not the same as Instant Death.

The point is that Synapse will now protect Tyranids from Force Weapons. That's a pretty significant boon.
Gottcha, I missunderstood what Wundagore was saying.
 

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Pirate Chaos Space Marine
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307 Posts
Also with the damage tables becoming one and glancing being a penalty, VC is now not a one shot wonder. Best you can do will be immobolising the tank over and over.
I haven't read the leak, but I've heard noone say that a second immobilized will not go on to destroy a weapon. And when all weapons are destroyed the vehicle is useless or destroyed.
Combined with the rumour that defensive weapons on vehicles is taking a hike down the S-chart, we might be seeing less weapons on each vehicle.
 

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Exactly.

--Rumors--
Run! vs Fleet of [Insert word depicting why unit moves faster]:
Yes the Run! rule allows D6 movement during the shooting phase with no shooting or assaulting allowed.
Fleet now allows you to Run! AND Assault. This will allow footsloggers some speed without taking away the tactics of knowing how far you need to move then assault or Run!
-Upgrade IMO(Melee fex and Broodlord now have a chance)
Rending:
The only thing that can stop rending now will be inv save.
-Upgrade IMO.
Tankkilling:
We have a D3 now when we rend after a successful penetrate on a vehicle hit.
-Ouch...
Also with the damage tables becoming one and glancing being a penalty, VC is now not a one shot wonder. Best you can do will be immobolising the tank over and over.
-Ouch....


We've received good and bad, but you need to take into account the whole picture.

That is the worst assesment of the changes I have ever heard.

I have a copy of the leaked rules, and Tyranids get totally screwed, in almost every possible way.

1) Run. Everybody can now fleet. EVERYBODY. The only advantage to the fleet rule is you can assault afterwards. So now none of our units are any faster then anybody elses. Our biggest advantage in the game (our speed) just became almost worthless.

2) Rending. All units that can rend just became 33% less effective in combat if they hit on 3+ and 50% less effective in combat if they hit on 4+.

3) your opponent can take casualties from unengaged models, so he will always get maximum attacks back. technically we can do this too, but since units with rending are typically smaller units, it doesn't affect us.

4) Because of the above, having a high inititive is not nearly as important as it used to be. In fact, if the opponent has unengaged models, inititive means nothing.

5) Synapse is now effected by the Fearless rule and we take armor saves if we are outnumbered, and it does not stop at 3 saves. It goes all the way up to 10 saves if you're ounumbered by 11 to 1. So we can no longer expect to bog someone down forever with our gaunts.

6) it is now IMPOSSIBLE, yes 100% totally impossible, for us to do anything to a Monolith, and almost Impossible to do anything against any other armor 14 vehicle.


Without changes in our codex, every tyranid build, except maybe the Zilla build just became a big pile of steaming crap.
 

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Charitably Tables People
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1,500 Posts
Cheredanine, it isn't that simple. A Tyranid Warrior is tall enough to draw LOS over gaunts, so ... they don't block LoS. The only things screened by gaunts will be genestealers, hormagaunts, and um well that's basically it. Raveners, Warriors, etc. are not LOS blockers. What's more, games will become terrible argue fests over who does or doesn't have LoS.



Firers may of course shoot over intervening models and units, if they are tall enough or high up on some terrain piece so that their line of sight is completely clear of any models (as usual, check these models’ line of sight by taking a good look from behind their head, and ‘see what they see’).


And to clarify, my biggest worry is how terribly long games between ANY armies are going to take with the above rule in effect. You must measure from a model's head. It is not like area terrain, where because an infantry unit is there, you can't see past it.
 

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I had an idea (coming from a necromunda-ish rule) that units in front of other units should take some of the shots.

Space Marines shooting into a warrior squad but there is a spineguant squad in the way on flat ground, normally a passed leadership test to hit the warriors then shoot as normal 3+. Well now i was thinking that on a roll of 1 or 2 miss, 3 or 4 hit the gaunts and 5 or 6 hitting the warrior. a gaunt would cover almost half of the warrior. now it would need some work (better shooting units can hit the half of a warrior better then the next.

I need allot of help on this but with that new rule with height measurement this still might end up less work and be pretty cool at the same time
 

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It's a Trap!
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Cheredanine, it isn't that simple. A Tyranid Warrior is tall enough to draw LOS over gaunts, so ... they don't block LoS. The only things screened by gaunts will be genestealers, hormagaunts, and um well that's basically it. Raveners, Warriors, etc. are not LOS blockers. What's more, games will become terrible argue fests over who does or doesn't have LoS.
I do agree with cher though that screening is probably an improvement. At the moment, it really means almost nothing. Any unit in the game can pass a freakin' leadership test now days as almost every unit has a way to achieve LD 10 or reroll their test and currently they can all shoot between spaces in their own models. Under these rules, spine gaunts are going to atleast block units their size for sure. This is probably going to mean stealers, hormies, rippers, (maybe raveners depending on the circumstances).

We do get screwed pretty hard by these new rules, but remember everyone, they aren't final, this was still a WIP and even if they are, despite the rumors, I doubt that it is going to hit shelves this year.
 

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Considering their big anniversry plans for warhammer, I think this year is unlikley to see new 40K - especially so soon after apoc. I think this year Fantasy will be the target, but I don't see this as being a late 2009 release - and early one I think - they might even try and get the christmas slot
 

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6) it is now IMPOSSIBLE, yes 100% totally impossible, for us to do anything to a Monolith, and almost Impossible to do anything against any other armor 14 vehicle.
Now a carnifex can still crack a monolith in hand to hand. Sure you don't get the added dice, but at strength 8 it is still possible. Has it been said if this isn't possible in the rumored 5th edition rules?
 

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Charitably Tables People
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Strength 8 cannot kill a Monolith, due to the way its weapon destroyed results never spill over into immobilized or destroyed when immobilized. You just perpetually weaken the gauss flux arc beyond nonworking.

The Fex is S9, and the Monolith is a skimmer, so even w/ TS, and assuming it is IMMOBILIZED, your chances are not fantastic. If it is not immobilized, they become slim and none, since it requires a 6 to hit it in close combat.
 
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