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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
~So I played a low point game against dwarves earlier today. 750 points. I ran two units of spearmen with a standard bearer in each, a unit of ten swordmasters and a unit of ten white lions. The noble had sacred incense and a great weapon. The dwarves had a cannon, an organ gun, a unit of gunners, a unit of crossbowmen, and a small unit of some other warriors.
~Long story short, i got torn apart. Mainly this is due to that fact that when i reached his lines and ended up having to make leadership for two of the units for being shot at, and one of the units just for losing because of high ground. What can elves do?
~Nest time I believe I;m going to have an eagle or two, but what more can I do? We all just started so were all playing at 750 points right now.
 

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LO Zealot
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~So I played a low point game against dwarves earlier today. 750 points. I ran two units of spearmen with a standard bearer in each, a unit of ten swordmasters and a unit of ten white lions. The noble had sacred incense and a great weapon. The dwarves had a cannon, an organ gun, a unit of gunners, a unit of crossbowmen, and a small unit of some other warriors.
~Long story short, i got torn apart. Mainly this is due to that fact that when i reached his lines and ended up having to make leadership for two of the units for being shot at, and one of the units just for losing because of high ground. What can elves do?
~Nest time I believe I;m going to have an eagle or two, but what more can I do? We all just started so were all playing at 750 points right now.
your first problem is, that you were playing a small point game. High Elves are super expensive, so you're not going to have many guys to begin with.

your second problem is, that you opponent was probably drooling with joy when you finished deployment, you had nothing to deal with a super shooty list, which is what he brought.

Shooting is extremely effective in small point games due the ease of causing panic and eradicating units while they march across the field of battle. In larger point games, you usually have some numbers to take a few hits before close combat. Dwarves have probably the best artillary in the game. You don't need an eagle, you need some repeater bolt throwers. Give your noble the Reaver bow instead of the sacred incense. Now you can sit back (out of range of his organ gun) and kill the crew of his cannon and organ gun and then snipe his crossbowmen. RBT has range of 48" which is more than everything except the cannon. The other strategy would be to shoot the organ gun crew first, but have your units deployed super long (10 white lions are 10 men wide) then with the organ gun down, the cannon can only kill 1 guy at a time while you continue to pepper his crossbowmen. You'll be stretched really thin, and want to take a turn to reform, but you have the speed that he doesn't.
 

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Buckero0 is exactly right. Fight fire with fire.

A Dwarf gunline will just tear your mass units to peices especially at small point games so if I was you I would really avoid these. Get your self one or two RBT depending on what else you want to take and then fill out with a couple of small units of WL and possibly a small unit of Ellyrion Reavers. I would also suggest if you have the points a unit of 5 Shadow Warriors. I know a lot of people aren't a massive fan of these but I rarely leave home without a unit of 5 which is relativly cheap and in my opinion in small games they are invaluable. I would keep them away from the Organ Gun which will tear them to peices and concentrate on the canon with them leaving your RBT(s) to take care of the Organ Gun at range. I also like taking a Mage with Rune of Fury in 750 point games but against Dwarfs its just a waste of points. What may be a good idea is to take a hunter Noble on Giant Eagle with the Reaver Bow, Great Weapon and Enchanted shield. At 750 points if you can keep him covered with terrain and only popping out to chose his fights and targets he should be prity dominant although you may feel he's too expensive in a low points game.

Hope these thought help you and let us know how the next battle goes.
 

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Agree with buckeroO and Esgalisil fire power is much more important in low points cost battles. Any fire power pays its points cost back at this level, 2 RBT, archers or SW are all excellent investments. WL in single lines either 10 or a couple of units of 7 with champion and musician are very frustrating to dwarf armys, you get 8S6 attacks an umnmodified LD8 and a 3/4 save against most missile fire and against single lines of WL the dwarf artillery is fairly ineffective (excluding organ guns). Good luck and have fun.
 

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Gladewalker
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Knowing you Quendi, I don't think that it was as big a problem as it might at first appear. Your usual lists are more balanced and would have a better chance.

He wants you to come to him so don't. Then his blocks of warriors are useless. If you do approach, do so were he's vulerable as he can't manuever fast. Small groups of WL are good like others have said because you can run through the woods.

Use your superior magic to get past their 4 dispel dice so you can cast the howling wind spell or storm thing to block some shooting.

Do your best to deny him hills. Don't have ranks. Topple his quarrelers first with shooting.

He will often take a master engineer to entrench the organ gun so RBTing it is virtually useless due to hardcover and range (use it against other targets). Keep in mind that because he usually plays defensively and deploys in a block, if he fails a Ld test he's in trouble. He is close to the board edge and fleeing guys will spook others.
 

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LO Zealot
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He will often take a master engineer to entrench the organ gun so RBTing it is virtually useless due to hardcover and range (use it against other targets). Keep in mind that because he usually plays defensively and deploys in a block, if he fails a Ld test he's in trouble. He is close to the board edge and fleeing guys will spook others.
Well see, no one said anything about a master engineer. I still think the RBT is good for killing a cannon crew and killing crossbowmen. The only thing that keeps a organ gun from killing stuff is a misfire or being out of its range. It will slay anything the HE have out there. It has a-3 armor save and doesn't care if you're in the trees, if you're within 24" and slightly visible, you're going to get hit and wounded on 2's.

Also, a little advice, don't hold your breath while waiting on dwarves to fail a leadership test, it doesn't happen very often. They don't panic really and their base leadership is often better than elves. Dwarf warriors aren't that tough to take out, just hit their flank and they'll crumble. But to get to their flank, you're going to have to have something to eat the organ gun. Eagles will rarely do it, so cavalry or magic is your 2 main options and magic is usually worthless in small games, esp. against dwarves.
 

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Gladewalker
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Well see, no one said anything about a master engineer. I still think the RBT is good for killing a cannon crew and killing crossbowmen. The only thing that keeps a organ gun from killing stuff is a misfire or being out of its range. It will slay anything the HE have out there. It has a-3 armor save and doesn't care if you're in the trees, if you're within 24" and slightly visible, you're going to get hit and wounded on 2's.

Also, a little advice, don't hold your breath while waiting on dwarves to fail a leadership test, it doesn't happen very often. They don't panic really and their base leadership is often better than elves. Dwarf warriors aren't that tough to take out, just hit their flank and they'll crumble. But to get to their flank, you're going to have to have something to eat the organ gun. Eagles will rarely do it, so cavalry or magic is your 2 main options and magic is usually worthless in small games, esp. against dwarves.
I'm not saying hes likely to fail a Ld, but its worth trying because of his bunched deployment.

I agree that eagles aren't gonna do much.

If his cavalry is ever exposed its pretty dead don't you think? 6-8 riders against 2 ranged units and 2 war machines. However, it might be worth it to take that 15pt standard to go through woods that way he'd catch the dwarves off guard. Dragon princes have the extra Ld to help them through the fire too.
 

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/botnobot/
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I'm a WE player, not HE, but when I play Dwarfs, I go straight for their shooting. To heck with those ranked units, which are generally to tough for me to break unless I get the perfect combo charge. I take out the thunderers, quarrelers as quickly as possible to reduce the damage I take. Then I take out the war machines, and I pick one unit of infantry to go for, usually the poor, luckless warriors most Dwarf generals field.

Anyhow, my point is, well, my point is what others have already said. Use shooting to eliminate shooting. Besides, you can get a lot of VPs that way, not to mention keeping your guys alive. Then jump on the infantry when you're ready and don't have to worry about an organ gun ripping your cavalry to pieces.



 

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this is where a HE mage will shine. My favorite thing to do against a Dwarven gunline is to take a lvl 2 Mage with a seerstaff (165 pts) and use that handy spell from the Lore of Life, The Rain Lord. I love to see the look on a Dwarf players face when he realizes that his squad of thunderers or his organ gun have been effectively renderd useless (assuming that the spell is the same as in 6th edition)
 

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I'll try not to just repeat what everyone else has said but the key is not to give him the game by subjecting yourself to that shooting.

Both as a Dwarf Player and playing against Dwarves I have found the best way to exploit this is shooting that out ranges Organ Guns and Thunderers. In the case of HE this is obviously your RBT and Archers.
By deploying everything out of range of all his shooting (except cannons) all his nasty close range shooting is worthless. Your then playing off your ranged shooting & Magic with his Quarrellers and Cannons/BTs, and if you can win that competition you can take the win.

It might not sound (and to me isn't) an interesting game to play, but it's your gunline fielding opponent who decided the tone by fielding so much shooting. By advancing, you are just handing him a win.
 

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i found a brilliant way of winning against a dwarf gun line in 2000 pts

you get teclis with heavens and 3 lvl 2's with life
2 units of basic spear men (so 10 only)
as many bolt throwers as possibe
the rest is swordys or something any miners
you hide everything in and behind terrain (apart from the boltsthowers)
and blast him with no l.O.S magic8X
 

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Master of the Crab Women
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i found a brilliant way of winning against a dwarf gun line in 2000 pts

you get teclis with heavens and 3 lvl 2's with life
2 units of basic spear men (so 10 only)
as many bolt throwers as possibe
the rest is swordys or something any miners
you hide everything in and behind terrain (apart from the boltsthowers)
and blast him with no l.O.S magic8X
So basically min max and rely on a special character?

It's Teclis' Bolt Thrower Brigade vs Thorek's Artillery Battalion!!!
 

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Herman1004
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I really don't find dwarfs a problem in smaller point games.
As long as he doesn't field a gunline I should be fine. Rely on speed and hard hitting infantry, don't bother bringing any mages and use terrain to your advantage.

My unit choices:

DP
Lion Chariot
Eagles
Archers (don't underestimate their ability to take down cannon crew or thunderers)
RBT
Shadow Warriors
WL

These units should all make up their points cost if you use speed and terrain to your advantage. Banner of ellyrion should also prove it's worth especially on the DP. If you know you're not facing a gunline you should also bring a unit of SM. Sure a cannon with a lucky shot may destroy your chariot but people tend to always think the worst. It actually take some effort with the dice to blow up a chariot with a cannon and in turn 2 or 3 you should have reached his troops. Dwarfs ability to always march makes people think shadow warriors won't be necessary but they are great to charge missile troops on turn 2, stopping them from shooting your army to pieces.

As dwarfs have a huge dispel pool, you shouldn't bring any mages as you won't generate enough power dice to get of the lore of life spells everyone talks about. Avoid contact with his warrior blocks and go for small, weak units like cannons, thunderers and quarrellers. This will earn you VP instead of being locked in combat with his superior warriors, or even get broken and ran down after a turn of bad rolling.

I have actually had quite some success against dwarfs so I thought I would share my opinions with you guys.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
~I played a couple of more games against dwarves today. Both at 1000 points. The only words I can use to describe that massacre: The only odor you could smell above all the gun powder was the elven blood.

~First game I had two lvl 2 wizards. One in a group of ten swordmasters, the other in a group of twenty spearmen. The lores were of high magic and the lore of shadows. The organ gun ended up tearing up all the swordmasters, and the eventual wear-down of cannons and gun killed the spearmen.

~The second game I had a lot of shooting. Didn't matter. His organ gun had special runes or something so my two RBT hit on 6's and everything sucked.

~I'm at a loss. I've only played dwarves three times, so if I haven't discovered the trick yet, a little short cut would be super.
 

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Bearded Ninja
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the organ gun being a rare warmachine, may not have runes. from the sound of it however, the warmachine was entrenched by a master engineer (hard cover, defended obsticle)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
~It was something along hardcover. Either way, it was impossible for me to kill it. All the shots I shot at it was hitting on a 6, and whenever I even tried to get close to him I got completely shot down.

~Does anyone have ample ideas on countering that darn organ gun? Yesterday was sort of a game day for my friends and the dwarves won a game and drew a game against HE, one against TK, and I believe a win and a draw against WE. Overall he didn't lose. More importantly, none of us could figure out what to do about his gunline.

~He fielded two cannons, an organ gun, two units of crossbowmen, a block of dwarves, and a Runesmith. There might of been more or less, but I don't remember.
 

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A legend in my own mind.
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Did you have Curse of arrow attraction? That makes it easier to hit when shooting. The Bolt throwers themselves combined with that spell make them very nasty. Volley at -2 to their amor save, its also strength 4 reduces the armor by 1 more.

The closest to dwarves I have played is gun heavy empire. Probably not the best compariosn, but they both use guns so...
 
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