[Eire]

I had a friendly game last nite with my current DE list and my buddy brought his AC SM list. Basically it looks like this:

Captin w/Terminator Armor
Honor Guard Terminators w/2 Assault Cannons
3x Elites Terminator Squads w/2 Assault Cannons each
Bare bones Troop Scout squads w/Teleport Homers
Land Speeder Squadron (3 speeders) w/Assault Cannons
Land Speeder Squadron (2 speeders) w/Assault Cannons

Basically, I wasnt tabled, but I had half of 1 Warrior Squad by the end and he lost maybe 700 points. I didnt run more then 1 Wych Squad, 4 Troops, some Reavers, and 2 Ravagers. Nothing too crazy since I was trying to keep a good comp score and made some mistakes granted, but how do you mitigate an army that has 12-13 Assault Cannons?

That type of shooting is dropping entire Dark Eldar squads a turn just with 1 Terminator Squad... 8 Str 7 shots and storm bolters to boot!! Even with a good Raider rush you are losing Raiders/Ravagers at a rate of 2-3 a turn easy and that's if some of the fire is focused on the Warriors/Wyches. Best way I can see to beat that is a WWP list but even then your WWP carriers are probably going to be popped if he doesnt deep strike the Terminators first shooting he gets...

Do you all see armies like this that are built completely top balanced in the tourneys? I thought people were builidng good solid comp score lists but from what the GW employees were saying this is a typical list that you would see at a tourney (Nidzilla anyone?).

Any ideas?

Also, how do you all plan to mitigate the Tank Company when it comes in for tourneys next year? I heard it was legal now...(extra armor that negates the DL armor>12=12)

 

[Age]

Well if he was firing str7 shots from his assault cannons he was cheating!

I think it'd have to be down to a wych cult raider rush. termies can't withstand wych squads with an agoniser for long.

Also, when the new SM codex comes out, you can guarantee that unless those are already 10 man termie squads, he's going to get pwned completely. small consolation I know!

 

[Eire]

Yeah, I will have to recheck that... but he was doing the very minimum Troops you could possibly take with all 5 man Terminator Squads. It hurt... bad...

I belive he had Tank Hunter with his squads which is why the +1 to pen rolls which means the glances wouldnt effect that?? was upped against the Raider/Ravagers, but I can verify that later.

Even if you figure on he had lets say a dozen ACs, thats the possibility of 48 rending shots a turn, at Str6. <boggle>

 

[Splata]

yeah thats pretty moldy blue cheese.
that is one of the armies that everybody complains about.
Not much you can do except lose and give a bad army comp score...

unless you go in with a list that is min-maxed yourself. Even then it could be difficult.

 

[WraithGuardian]

I actualy disagree here, yes its one hell of an army to play against but think about it - if you play DE, anything and everything can hurt you. So what if he has those 13 assault cannons, what are they ever going to do??? Their rending is useless since they ignore all our saves anyway, and overall termies are just big blobs of points and every one you take out is 40 points right there and if you get your HQ in CC with a unit, than that termie unit stands no chance as they will die before they even attack back.

In my opinion, an AC heavy SM list is most competitive against other MEQ lists but not so much against lists like IG, nids and orks. Nids have the numbers that will easily tie them in CC, while guard ave the volume of fire which is bound to get through their 2+ save.

I think the problem here is simple lack of initiative. Its all the same for assault cannon lists as well as drop pod lists, as you never know where that unit will pop up. And yes I do believe that drop pod lists are a hell of a lot more competetive since they have more scoring unit overall. With reserves your opponent has the initiative and you have to take it away quickly. You can do it in many ways, like use a ton of warriors or have some ghost raiders accompanying you expensive units so they can get into CC quickly. You arent obligated to tell your opponent what in each raider as long as you have it writen down somewhere, so you can potentialy have your enemy keep shooting empty husks without him even knowing about it. Its all about deception for us, forget honor as DE arent space marines and feel free to use every dirty trick up your sleeve.

Read this battle report, hilly posted it a while back. 3rd report down.
http://www.librarium-online.com/for...ustralian-grand-tournament-battle-report.html

Do you all see armies like this that are built completely top balanced in the tourneys? I thought people were builidng good solid comp score lists but from what the GW employees were saying this is a typical list that you would see at a tourney (Nidzilla anyone?).

Also, how do you all plan to mitigate the Tank Company when it comes in for tourneys next year? I heard it was legal now...(extra armor that negates the DL armor>12=12)

To be honest, armies like this have a single purpose to simply win. The comp score is important but not as much as the points that you get for winning, so people like this simply focus on hte primary aspect and hope for the best. Zilla lists, swarms, assault cannon lists and DE ghost lists all fall into the similar category.

Overall, tourney are all about winning and usualy all you get to see is a ton of cheesy lists that one wouldnt use on normal occasions. Regarding the legitemacy of AC, I cant say anything about it but they already have the upgrade that negates lance effects and I strongly think that ACs should remain illegal for tourney puposes. Love me or hate me, but I have no respect for tank only armies as in my eyes they are nothing but an easy way of getting off the hook of painting 100 guard models.

 

[jONESIE]

Hey Champion!

To be honest, armies like this have a single purpose to simply win. .

In my opinion, an AC heavy SM list is most competitive against other MEQ lists but not so much against lists like IG, nids and orks. Nids have the numbers that will easily tie them in CC, while guard have the volume of fire which is bound to get through their 2+ save.

Agreed. :rofl


Anyways, even if I don't like it (AC spam), it's legal to make and use regardless.


See such a list again, get some Wyches in Raiders, give the Succubus her own Drugs, grab a Webway Portal, and eat the Termies one by one. Scaling Nets would help you 'reload' after pouncing and slaughtering a single and/or isolated unit.8Y

I like to play dangerously, but nothing I have ever used that is strong in one aspect doesn't incorporate some from of major flaw. I don't see any major flaw with AC spamming :|

 

[darkspawn327]

True, the WWP would be a nasty little counter. Though I wonder... his two scout squads with teleport homers. Did they inflitrate?

If so, you have an easy first turn charge, where you may even be able to smash the two homers and then start causing a little psychological damage.

If he didn't infiltrate, I think the best course of action would be to spread your forces over and pick em off with your Dark Lances until you can Agonize them. Of course, if it was an objective game, you could just snag that really quickly. (Ha... Terminators trying to teleport into a city= lots of dead Terminators)

My only encounter with a SM AssCannon list wasn't so bad. Mainly because my brother lost two of four Terminator units due to TERRIBLE Deepstriking rolls (1 off the board, 1 into my hordes of gaunts-- I was playing my 'Nids on this one). So I guess that doesn't really count

 

[Seeker84]

A Solution.

I played against an Eldar list with my Kabal. The list had 2 vibro cannons. From what the person told me they do not require LOS. He deployed them deep in his deployment zone. After my spanking, I reflected on the game and decided that the best defense against such a list is to run an army of shadows list. It's risky, but how much more risk is it against this AC list then being against this list and being on the table?

 

[Eire]

He infiltrated with the Scouts, maybe 10 inches from his side of the board if not closer to the edge, and hindsight being 20/20 I should have charged headlong across the board. Only issue was the 5 Landspeeders hiding back there... I already emailed him today we are going to redo the game since my tactics were way off, his tank hunter rules were wrong, and we just play for fun regardless (and I feel my list should have beaten him hands down). DE's should be able to beat an all SM AC list because of the low numbers of models. However, by taking the loss on the raiders getting popped fast and the warriors being slightly out of range for the initial Terminator drop on Turn 2 (1 squad he hid in the corner behind LOS) and the other 2 that came in on 3 (close by, semi hidden) I couldnt get many shots on him right away.

/rant on

I just feel that the hobby is/has become/ing a "power game" type model. Let's take a step into nerd territory here and look at something like Magic the Gathering <insert any other collectible card game here>. How fun is it to buy a premade deck worth 3-400 dollars and show up at the local hobby store and destroy everyone? I feel the same way with some of the lists I am seeing around this area (Maryland, Battle bunker). People dont play to play, they play to utterly destroy other players. I try to build fair and balanced comp score lists because they are more fun and challenging but everytime I get a whoopin I tend to look back and say "screw it, lemme build a WWP all Wych army and just destroy folks and laugh in their faces!!". Then when you talk to the employees about it the common answer is "get used to it, thats how tourneys are". Screw that I say... its a hobby... what happened to play for fun with balanced lists that arent top heavy? Why on earth is there so much Rending in the game anyhow??

If I was the SM guy that played against Lelith Hesperex/WWP list (that I saw 2 weeks back) I would never play another DE person again... guy lost his entire army and the Lelith player lost 6 Wyches... total.

/rant off

Thoughts?

 

[jONESIE]

I try to build fair and balanced comp score lists because they are more fun and challenging but everytime I get a whoopin I tend to look back and say "screw it, lemme build a WWP all Wych army and just destroy folks and laugh in their faces!!".


Thoughts?

This is all that matters Chief. That shows you care about the Hobby, it's people, enjoying yourself, rolling dice, and having fun. Tournies are usually in this type of mindset too, although with an added something that makes the air tense. Of course, you always have the more brickset players there to 'killmaimburn', but hey- did nothing for their rep along the way eh? ;Y

 

[Seeker84]

Tournament rant

Well, I mean that is what tournaments are. I see tournaments as I play to win. It's not fun to lose, but if your in tournament that it's main goal have fun losing let me join. Any competitive tournament will lose it's "Fun" focus of the game because of the people who play to win despite how much non fun the opponent gets. Heck I play to win, but being DE I play to learn if I lose.

That's how I see it anyways. If this gets too of track, make another thread.

 

[jONESIE]

Totally agreed, Seeker

Last post on the topic for me...
Tournament is no excuse to cram 13 Assault Cannons into an "army".

Just saying that- it isn't playing to win (which is fine), it's just rude. :rofl

 

[Eire]

Agreed, I got a little off topic with my rant. (my apologies)

Now, if I wanted to make a 13 AC list at 1500 points even nastier? (that my buddy was playing) I would take off the Tank Hunter he had a the Terminator Squads and add Sniper Rifles to the Scouts (drop their homers too so the Rifles fit). Double ouch!! Sniper Rifles on your bare bones Troop Scouts and everything else has AC's...

We are going to redo the game, my tactics will change a bit, but my list is staying the same. Instead of running jetbikes up the middle, I am using them on the flanks and keeping them in cover all the time until they do their flybys. Raider Squads are great, Wyches will be in behind them, and the Ravagers will take pot shots at the Land Speeders (Sniper squads ditto).

I like the DE, love their speed, love their firepower, but they die like whoa.

List looks something like this (there are Sybarites with Agonizers in the Raider Squads and the larger Reaver Squad has a Succubus)

Archon tooled up on a Reaver (debating a swap w/Raider and a few Incubi)
Wyches on a Raider
Sniper Squad x10 w2 DL
Sniper Squad x10 w2 DL
Raider Squad x10 wSC/Blaster
Raider Squad x10 wSC/Blaster
Reaver Squad x5 wBlaster x2
Reaver Squad x3 wBlaster x2
Ravager 1 DL 2 Dis
Ravager 1 DL 2 Dis

I'll let you know how it comes out, I can pull it out if I play smarter. (I could take out the smaller Reaver squad, find 5 points laying around and put in a Talos...)

I can list out my current build later on the Army forums and detail it more appropriately.

Cheers,

 

[KwiKwag]

Right from the begining of the thread I am total agreement with your "concern". What can you do? I've been there, played lists with an eye on composition and what I think is fair then the "power gamer" comes in without any care of composition. What do ya do?

For me, I have gone back and forth with that issue. Went from playing themed armies with fluff only to switch to odd choices I would never put together normally just to beat the powergamers. It wasn't until I was creaming the powergamers with wych cult and kroot allies when one of them made a comment about me power-gaming and needing "allies" to defeat them. I lost sight of the reason for playing and it turned me into one of them. I then decided to go back to balanced lists and having fun and the love of the game came back to me - leave the power gaming for tournaments, don't sink down to his level.

Be careful chasing the power-gamers, one thing I will never do is to make a list to beat any particular player, it aint right.

I say find your favorite units or stick with the ones you already used and make yourself a better general. Last thing you need is having people claim that it was the list that beat them not you. Master the units you use and know their capabilities, always keep an eye on the objectives and play the mission, utilize the game levels to your advantage and always demand 25% terrain that you get to setup yourself. Personally, I think you can beat anyone with a sharp eye on those items.

Just my thoughts.

 

[WraithGuardian]

If you realy want to slap him across the face than take the third ravager, this way you can fight fire with fire.