Age of Sigmar
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It's getting too late for me to reply (have to be awake for work in 4.5hrs) but let us know how it goes. I'll reply tomorrow - hopefully early enough that you won't have played your game already.
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9,222 Posts
I'm sorry guys - I didn't mean to let this drop, I've just been posting my test games and such in the main thread for AoS. Anyways:
What should you take in your army?
First of all: whatever you want. There are no limitations. There are two ways to balance this game
1) Sit down with your opponent and pick your armies together, and try to keep things balanced and fluffy. This is how GW would prefer you do it.
2) Follow any of the guidelines that most people have suggested they are:
GW "Official" (response to emails and questions)
1-12 total Scrolls (I do not use this)
1-2 Hero keywords
0-2 Monster keywords
No duplicate Heroes
No more than 2x of any other Scroll
Max #Wounds/Scroll (I do not use this)
Internet Suggestions
Limit army to equal number of Wounds
No more than 2x models with 10+ Wounds
No more than 10x models with 5-9 Wounds
No more than 7x models with "Hero" Keyword (note that Heroes also count against your 5/10+ Wound allowances, as they often have several wounds).
Other suggestions
Do not allow players to have any more than 3 Summoned Units at one time (this is important, some armies can summon an endless stream of fresh units onto the table)
Do not allow any 'Named' Special Characters from Legacy Armies.
It's important to realize that the 'legacy armies' (the free pdfs for existing armies) are not to be taken nearly as seriously as the new stuff (Stormcasts, Bloodtide). The goofy "measure your beard" rues all exist within the legacy lists, and the special characters in those armies (Kroak, Nagash, Leonceur are prime examples) are hideously powerful models. Avoid them.
List Theory
There are some things which make AoS a very interesting game. One of the biggest balancing factors in this entire is actually the Battle Shock rule. This rule kills whole models, regardless of wounds, based on your Leadership. If a unit loses one model during the turn, it is forced to test for Shock at the end of the turn.
Because of this, there is a definite edge to fielding Single Model Units (like Characters and Monsters) but also to fielding units of single-wound models (like Elf Spearmen).
Our Army
Characters
Dragon Mages are better than Arch Mages on Dragons. Regular Mages aren't bad either, if you just want to have a Wizard in the list. The Dragon Mage has the same stats as the Archy on a Dragon, but 'Flames of the Phoenix' is awesome compared to Drain Magic. In fact, Drain Magic is virtually worthless. The only advantage to the Archy is that he can attempt to dispel 2 Spells per phase.
Princes and Annointed - the best options for characters in our army. This is wholly dependent upon how your rule the Prince's multiple weapons. If you are allowed to have a Polearm and the Shield and use both then the prince wins out every time. However, I think that RAI is meant that you get 1 weapon or the Starblade and Shield. You need that Shield though, if you want any chance of the Prince being as good as the Annointed. Reason being, "Might of the Asur" is awesome, and the rerolllable Armor is almost as good as Witness to Destiny.
The advantage of the Annointed is that Witness to Destiny gives him a 4+ Wardsave in a game where nobody gets a Wardsave anymore. His Halberd is great, even better than the Prince's Sword. He also gets to Unbind just like a Wizard.
The other character options are situational, and attached to particular units. I don't find them nearly as good as the Prince, who can give rerolls to ANYONE, carry the flag, and so on.
Units
Sisters of Aveorn trump everyone. Let me be very clear - these girls have a 3+3+ ranged attack and can double-tap in the shooting phase if they don't move. This is not negated by having enemies within 3". They have a 4+4+ melee just like your Spears. If they get Charged, they can shoot. So you roll up close to the enemy and start pounding them with multiple shots. Then they charge you, and you get to shoot. Then you stay there in combat, where you get two 3+3+ and a 4+4+ attack. They wreck people. Same armor as your Spears too. No reason not to take these girls as your primary infantry option in all of your lists. There's virtually nothing else in our list that will kill stuff faster. I promise you.
Elf Spearmen - in regiments of 20 are disgusting. They get 2A each for every model within 2" of the enemy. They also count as having Bravery 8 while all 20 are alive. Their Shields let them reroll 1's to Save in combat, 1's and 2's against shooting. Their Spears reroll 1's to Wound. These guys will kill Dragons.
Elf Bowmen and Shadow Warriors - actually contest the Spearman now. It's weird, but in Age you can actually shoot into and out of close combat, and even shoot the unit that you're in combat with yourself. This means that on your turn, you're getting the Bow attacks and then the 5+5+ melee attacks. If you've got big units of Spears (20+) the 2x MultiAttacks will be better for you, because you get them every round and they're 4+4+/4+4+. The Spears also get a save. But missile units in AoS are great now, and our Bowmen aren't bad by any stretch. Just remember that you cannot use Hail if there are enemies in combat with you.
The Shadow Warriors don't get Hail, but have a 3+4+ all the time. Use these guys instead of Bows, since Hail is only 1/game.
SeaGuard - same problem as always. They're somewhere halfway between a Bowman/Shadow Warrior for shooting, and they don't get the huge numbers bonus for Spear Elves. Either take big gigantic units of Spear Elves, or take Shadow Warrior units. These guys just aren't really worth it.
Reavers are better than Silver Helms, maybe better than Dragon Prince. Yeah, you read that correctly. Reavers have a shooting attack that is 4+4+ on your turn, with 2x Shots, and 3x Shots if they're not in combat. If they are in combat, they get 2 shooting attacks at 4+4+ on your turn, and get their spears at 4+4+ every turn. Silvers and Princes get their lances at 4+4+ every turn, with a bonus for Charging.
The Charge bonus for Lances is good though, as they have Dam2 on the Charge, and become 4+3+ for Silvers or 3+3+ for Princes.
What makes Princes so good (aside from their better To Hit stat) is the fact that if any other model in your army Flees (basically, someone fails their Battleshock test) then your Princes are immediately immune to Shock themselves. This is great, because Battleshock is the bane of multi-wound models like Dragon Princes.
Bolt Throwers - Sisters do it better. But if you do take one, the Volley is still the better of the two shooting options.
Solo Great Eagles are almost as good as our Cavalry units if you use Wounds to balance - they get just as many attacks as their "wounds equivalent" of Silver Helms or Dragon Princes. When they charge, the get bonus attacks. They hit like Dragon Princes (4+3+). Running them solo makes them effectively immune to Shock.
Their ability to jump out of combat at the end of any round is mandatory - you want to be Charging every chance you get for those bonus attacks. The bonus attacks aren't quite as good as the Dam2 on Lances, but you get 1 Eagle for 4W or you get 5 Knights (minimum size) for 10W. The Knights get 5A, the Eagle gets 4/6A. The advantage to the Knights is that they get the Dam2, Steed attacks, and better Saves. The Eagles are immune to Shock.
Phoenix Guard are better than Lions or Swordmasters - everything has 2A with a 3+3+ Dam1. What makes the Phoenix Guard so good, is that they have Witness to Destiny. They get to keep their 4+ Wardsave basically, even though Wardsaves are gone in this game. You can also make them immune to Battleshock by putting a Annointed in there (our best character, too, by the way - again, Witness to Destiny). This save, and the ability to just ignore Battleshock is better than any ability that the Lions or Masters get. To make it even better, enemies who fail their Shock tests within 3" of the Guard, lose an additional model. Doesn't mean much when you're fighting against Goblins, but against something like 5W Skull Crushers, you're going to demolish a unit in short order. Especially as it's so hard to kill of Phoenix Guard with that 4+ save and the 4+ Witness roll. Oh yeah, 2" range on their Halberds basically means that they fight in ranks. Or you can be a total jerk and stand 2" away from your enemy and not get hit at all on the turn your charge.
Chariots are awful - no more Impact Hits. We get most of our attacks from the 4+5+ Steeds, and that's worthless even with the rerolls on charging.
Monsters
FlameSpyre Phoenix is better than the Frostheart - and downright broken with an Annointed on the back. Basically, it gains the Witness to Destiny rule (4+ Ward) on a 12W model, and keeps the Phoenix Reborn ability. Otherwise, Blizzard Aura isn't bad, but neither are the mortal wounds from Flaming Wake. Both models have the same number of Wounds (same "points cost" if you're balancing by wound) and same Save, same attacks etc. One of them just has a 4+ chance to stand itself back up. So yeah...
Battalions
You cannot take the Dragon Host in a balanced game. Therefore, ignore it.
The Glittering Host isn't bad, but it's odd. It basically lets you "double tap" in your Combat phase, so that you attack and then attack again before your opponent can. The problem is that you have to take all of those units, and the rule only works between those units. So it's not really worth the odd melee rule when you could have taken better units to begin with and probably not needed it.
What should you take in your army?
First of all: whatever you want. There are no limitations. There are two ways to balance this game
1) Sit down with your opponent and pick your armies together, and try to keep things balanced and fluffy. This is how GW would prefer you do it.
2) Follow any of the guidelines that most people have suggested they are:
GW "Official" (response to emails and questions)
1-12 total Scrolls (I do not use this)
1-2 Hero keywords
0-2 Monster keywords
No duplicate Heroes
No more than 2x of any other Scroll
Max #Wounds/Scroll (I do not use this)
Internet Suggestions
Limit army to equal number of Wounds
No more than 2x models with 10+ Wounds
No more than 10x models with 5-9 Wounds
No more than 7x models with "Hero" Keyword (note that Heroes also count against your 5/10+ Wound allowances, as they often have several wounds).
Other suggestions
Do not allow players to have any more than 3 Summoned Units at one time (this is important, some armies can summon an endless stream of fresh units onto the table)
Do not allow any 'Named' Special Characters from Legacy Armies.
It's important to realize that the 'legacy armies' (the free pdfs for existing armies) are not to be taken nearly as seriously as the new stuff (Stormcasts, Bloodtide). The goofy "measure your beard" rues all exist within the legacy lists, and the special characters in those armies (Kroak, Nagash, Leonceur are prime examples) are hideously powerful models. Avoid them.
List Theory
There are some things which make AoS a very interesting game. One of the biggest balancing factors in this entire is actually the Battle Shock rule. This rule kills whole models, regardless of wounds, based on your Leadership. If a unit loses one model during the turn, it is forced to test for Shock at the end of the turn.
Because of this, there is a definite edge to fielding Single Model Units (like Characters and Monsters) but also to fielding units of single-wound models (like Elf Spearmen).
Our Army
Characters
Dragon Mages are better than Arch Mages on Dragons. Regular Mages aren't bad either, if you just want to have a Wizard in the list. The Dragon Mage has the same stats as the Archy on a Dragon, but 'Flames of the Phoenix' is awesome compared to Drain Magic. In fact, Drain Magic is virtually worthless. The only advantage to the Archy is that he can attempt to dispel 2 Spells per phase.
Princes and Annointed - the best options for characters in our army. This is wholly dependent upon how your rule the Prince's multiple weapons. If you are allowed to have a Polearm and the Shield and use both then the prince wins out every time. However, I think that RAI is meant that you get 1 weapon or the Starblade and Shield. You need that Shield though, if you want any chance of the Prince being as good as the Annointed. Reason being, "Might of the Asur" is awesome, and the rerolllable Armor is almost as good as Witness to Destiny.
The advantage of the Annointed is that Witness to Destiny gives him a 4+ Wardsave in a game where nobody gets a Wardsave anymore. His Halberd is great, even better than the Prince's Sword. He also gets to Unbind just like a Wizard.
The other character options are situational, and attached to particular units. I don't find them nearly as good as the Prince, who can give rerolls to ANYONE, carry the flag, and so on.
Units
Sisters of Aveorn trump everyone. Let me be very clear - these girls have a 3+3+ ranged attack and can double-tap in the shooting phase if they don't move. This is not negated by having enemies within 3". They have a 4+4+ melee just like your Spears. If they get Charged, they can shoot. So you roll up close to the enemy and start pounding them with multiple shots. Then they charge you, and you get to shoot. Then you stay there in combat, where you get two 3+3+ and a 4+4+ attack. They wreck people. Same armor as your Spears too. No reason not to take these girls as your primary infantry option in all of your lists. There's virtually nothing else in our list that will kill stuff faster. I promise you.
Elf Spearmen - in regiments of 20 are disgusting. They get 2A each for every model within 2" of the enemy. They also count as having Bravery 8 while all 20 are alive. Their Shields let them reroll 1's to Save in combat, 1's and 2's against shooting. Their Spears reroll 1's to Wound. These guys will kill Dragons.
Elf Bowmen and Shadow Warriors - actually contest the Spearman now. It's weird, but in Age you can actually shoot into and out of close combat, and even shoot the unit that you're in combat with yourself. This means that on your turn, you're getting the Bow attacks and then the 5+5+ melee attacks. If you've got big units of Spears (20+) the 2x MultiAttacks will be better for you, because you get them every round and they're 4+4+/4+4+. The Spears also get a save. But missile units in AoS are great now, and our Bowmen aren't bad by any stretch. Just remember that you cannot use Hail if there are enemies in combat with you.
The Shadow Warriors don't get Hail, but have a 3+4+ all the time. Use these guys instead of Bows, since Hail is only 1/game.
SeaGuard - same problem as always. They're somewhere halfway between a Bowman/Shadow Warrior for shooting, and they don't get the huge numbers bonus for Spear Elves. Either take big gigantic units of Spear Elves, or take Shadow Warrior units. These guys just aren't really worth it.
Reavers are better than Silver Helms, maybe better than Dragon Prince. Yeah, you read that correctly. Reavers have a shooting attack that is 4+4+ on your turn, with 2x Shots, and 3x Shots if they're not in combat. If they are in combat, they get 2 shooting attacks at 4+4+ on your turn, and get their spears at 4+4+ every turn. Silvers and Princes get their lances at 4+4+ every turn, with a bonus for Charging.
The Charge bonus for Lances is good though, as they have Dam2 on the Charge, and become 4+3+ for Silvers or 3+3+ for Princes.
What makes Princes so good (aside from their better To Hit stat) is the fact that if any other model in your army Flees (basically, someone fails their Battleshock test) then your Princes are immediately immune to Shock themselves. This is great, because Battleshock is the bane of multi-wound models like Dragon Princes.
Bolt Throwers - Sisters do it better. But if you do take one, the Volley is still the better of the two shooting options.
Solo Great Eagles are almost as good as our Cavalry units if you use Wounds to balance - they get just as many attacks as their "wounds equivalent" of Silver Helms or Dragon Princes. When they charge, the get bonus attacks. They hit like Dragon Princes (4+3+). Running them solo makes them effectively immune to Shock.
Their ability to jump out of combat at the end of any round is mandatory - you want to be Charging every chance you get for those bonus attacks. The bonus attacks aren't quite as good as the Dam2 on Lances, but you get 1 Eagle for 4W or you get 5 Knights (minimum size) for 10W. The Knights get 5A, the Eagle gets 4/6A. The advantage to the Knights is that they get the Dam2, Steed attacks, and better Saves. The Eagles are immune to Shock.
Phoenix Guard are better than Lions or Swordmasters - everything has 2A with a 3+3+ Dam1. What makes the Phoenix Guard so good, is that they have Witness to Destiny. They get to keep their 4+ Wardsave basically, even though Wardsaves are gone in this game. You can also make them immune to Battleshock by putting a Annointed in there (our best character, too, by the way - again, Witness to Destiny). This save, and the ability to just ignore Battleshock is better than any ability that the Lions or Masters get. To make it even better, enemies who fail their Shock tests within 3" of the Guard, lose an additional model. Doesn't mean much when you're fighting against Goblins, but against something like 5W Skull Crushers, you're going to demolish a unit in short order. Especially as it's so hard to kill of Phoenix Guard with that 4+ save and the 4+ Witness roll. Oh yeah, 2" range on their Halberds basically means that they fight in ranks. Or you can be a total jerk and stand 2" away from your enemy and not get hit at all on the turn your charge.
Chariots are awful - no more Impact Hits. We get most of our attacks from the 4+5+ Steeds, and that's worthless even with the rerolls on charging.
Monsters
FlameSpyre Phoenix is better than the Frostheart - and downright broken with an Annointed on the back. Basically, it gains the Witness to Destiny rule (4+ Ward) on a 12W model, and keeps the Phoenix Reborn ability. Otherwise, Blizzard Aura isn't bad, but neither are the mortal wounds from Flaming Wake. Both models have the same number of Wounds (same "points cost" if you're balancing by wound) and same Save, same attacks etc. One of them just has a 4+ chance to stand itself back up. So yeah...
Battalions
You cannot take the Dragon Host in a balanced game. Therefore, ignore it.
The Glittering Host isn't bad, but it's odd. It basically lets you "double tap" in your Combat phase, so that you attack and then attack again before your opponent can. The problem is that you have to take all of those units, and the rule only works between those units. So it's not really worth the odd melee rule when you could have taken better units to begin with and probably not needed it.
No worries, Cap! I was just skimming the boards, but it sounds like you've been pretty busy / in upheaval yourself. Honestly, I expected to see a lot more AoS stuff now that it's released.
I haven't even seen a "main AoS" thread... I'll go looking again.
I'm trying to figure out how well bravery is going to work, I guess the best way is just to playtest it. I am VERY skeptical of tweaking with wound caps/ etc for now...I suspect the game will balance itself pretty well if you both just start deploying, though I suppose it remains to be seen.
Overall though, how have the games been?
I haven't even seen a "main AoS" thread... I'll go looking again.
I'm trying to figure out how well bravery is going to work, I guess the best way is just to playtest it. I am VERY skeptical of tweaking with wound caps/ etc for now...I suspect the game will balance itself pretty well if you both just start deploying, though I suppose it remains to be seen.
Overall though, how have the games been?
My first AOS game
My game went ok we called it a draw i played against Ogors (ogres)
My list played just for fun to figure out rules
1 HE prince on griffon-did most of the killing and i really liked
1 HE mage-the shield was the best thing about him
15 Swordmasters-due bad rolls and me making mistake of not attacking first with them when i could have they got destroyed by the ironguts
10 Archers-did nothing
1 RBT-killed a few ironguts
1 Lion chariot-due to really good rolls took half the wounds off of the stonehorn
Ogor list
1 Butcher
6 ironguts
2 gorgers
1 stonehorn
The game went well i do like that you pick which combat you want and take turn can really make or break. We wound up with my Mage and one of his gorgers on the field at the end. he chose to Seize ground as a victory condition since i outnumbered him.
My thoughts, the game was fun to play and only took an 1.5 hours which was pretty quick especially for a learning game. Although i think army's with high wound models have an innate advantage to always going first in the first round and being able to choose victory conditions.
My game went ok we called it a draw i played against Ogors (ogres)
My list played just for fun to figure out rules
1 HE prince on griffon-did most of the killing and i really liked
1 HE mage-the shield was the best thing about him
15 Swordmasters-due bad rolls and me making mistake of not attacking first with them when i could have they got destroyed by the ironguts
10 Archers-did nothing
1 RBT-killed a few ironguts
1 Lion chariot-due to really good rolls took half the wounds off of the stonehorn
Ogor list
1 Butcher
6 ironguts
2 gorgers
1 stonehorn
The game went well i do like that you pick which combat you want and take turn can really make or break. We wound up with my Mage and one of his gorgers on the field at the end. he chose to Seize ground as a victory condition since i outnumbered him.
My thoughts, the game was fun to play and only took an 1.5 hours which was pretty quick especially for a learning game. Although i think army's with high wound models have an innate advantage to always going first in the first round and being able to choose victory conditions.
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Yeah - I've been going through a lot, both in and out of the game. Glad to see that AoS had the effect that GW wanted though - it's got more people talking about the game. At the moment, the community here on LO is one of the things that I look forward to - I log in every day when I get home from work, and if I've got nothing better to do, I stay here all evening, responding to posts and lurking the 40k forums.
Bravery works amazingly well. I've said a few times already, it is the one thing which balances this game. It's not perfect - solo models don't have to test at all. If you cause 9W to a 12W Dragon, the Dragon doesn't care. If you cause 9W to 15 Swordmasters, they're probably going to "pop".
What it does balance, are situations like the one that I had in an early game of AoS - my SkullCrushers charged into a unit of Skinks. Normally, that's game-over for the Skinks, we wouldn't even roll the fight. In AoS though, those Skinks were able to sneak 2W through and kill off an already beat-up Crusher. I took my Shock test, rolled a 6, and lost another whole Crusher (5W model). The Skinks evaporated, sure, but 15 Skinks vs 3 Crushers... normally in 8th that's a no-brainer, no damage to the Crushers, one dead regiment of Skinks. In AoS, the Skinks can actually do something.
I strongly advise trying to balance based on Wounds though. There is literally nothing stopping you otherwise. For example, I own about 5000pts worth of Warriors of Chaos now. 2 Daemon Princes, 2 Chaos Dragons, a Shaggoth, Giant, Hellcannon, 2 Spawn, 4 Chariots, 50 Warriors, 30 Knights, 30 Marauder Horsemen, 150 Marauders, 24 Forsaken, 12 Trolls, 6 Ogres, 2 Warshrines, 3 Dragon Ogres, 9 Skull Crushers, Throgg, Wulfrik, Sigvald, Villitch, Valkyra, Festus, a Lord and Sorc on Discs, 2 Lords on Daemonic Mounts, an Exalted BSB, Nurgle Sorc, Tzeentch Sorc, 2 other Lord/Exalteds...
I have no reason to stop deploying until you do.
And if you think that the "30% more models" is going to stop me, understand that I'm starting with the Princes, Dragons, Trolls, Crushers, DrOgres, Characters, and big stuff with multiple wounds. I have enough of that up there to probably run some people out of drops with their regular stuff. Then I can start slapping down 2W Chaos Warriors and 3W Chaos Knights for good measure.
Now, you're asking if I'm going to cart all of that out to a shop for a Pickup Game - I probably wouldn't. But if I were feeling like a jerk and wanted to make someone else's night suck, for a change, I would cart all of that big stuff out no problem. Or I could invite you over to my house. Or store my models in one of the lockers at my FLGS. Or buy a Motorpool case.
You see where I'm going here.
If you have friends that you can trust not to do this, then yeah - you're probably in the clear and don't need to tweak anything. I'm just pointing out the biggest complaint that everyone has with AoS, whether they like the game or not; there's nothing to stop people from being jerks.
Excellent. They're close matches, and they're fun. My group still plays with regiments "in rank". There are things that you can do here, to make this less of a problem. For example, when we measure for our Charge, we always measure from the target, and as "deep" into the charging unit as it will reach. This is the number of models who would normally be able to make it into combat. Then you measure another 3" deep into the regiments during "pile in". Any models within these distances can be moved up to the fighting ranks (the front rank normally, second or even 3rd rank if you have 2" range melee weapons like Halberds).
Like I said, there are definitely rules that just feel game-y as hell. For instance, the fact that you can shoot into/out of combat, or shoot at the person you're fighting. It makes ranged units really good, as evidenced by the Sisters of Avelorn. I've already played a 100W game against his Lizardmen, using:
2 Anointed on Flamespyres
1 Prince w/ Banner
15 Phoenix Guard
15 Phoenix Guard
16 Sisters of Avelorn
16 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle
Eagle
99/100W
It was pretty hideous. The Flamespyres deal Mortal Wounds (no To Hit, Wound, or Save rolls, just auto-wound) to anything that they fly over, and 2D6 (from both) of those is enough to bring down or just terrify any characters in the game. You can fly over stinking Dragons and knock them down to half. I was gunning for his Slann, and it went down fast.
Likewise, the Phoenix Guard getting the extra 1 Kill on Shock tests, and the fact that they're insanely tough, makes them idea candidates for wrecking enemy "multi-wound non-monsters". So things like his Kroxigors and Cold One Riders.
Sisters just kill anything. I'm not joking. One of them shot at a regiment of 20 Saurus Warriors. 9 Kills, followed up by a Shock test he'd fail on a 3+ meant that a single volley cut that unit in half. Second regiment followed it up and finished them off. One round.
Battleshock. Unless they're running an army full of solos, then Battleshock is what you're looking for. The only thing that I don't like about the multiwound models getting an advantage, even in "wound-balanced" games, is that they get the auto-win conditions. The game really does balance out nicely if you keep the wounds values the same. Most stuff with 1W is roughly equivalent. Especially when you consider that the Legacy armies are full of "chaff" choices just to keep certain models current. In the future, I expect the equivalent "basic" Elf Archer to do the same kinds of things that Sisters are doing right now. The new armies will probably only have a couple of choices each, and they'll be the equivalent to the current Special/Rare units in the Legacy books.
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