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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Trying some different set-ups, and often times hearing the praise on this little jewel, I decided to create an army based around this particular skill, when it dawned on me the shere devestation this can unleash. I'd like to know more specific information on this, as a few questions were raised...

1. I can adjust the squad any way in which I choose, so I can place special characters (heavies, power fists, etc) out in front to gaurantee their kill on my charge?

2. I can target any LOS avilable non vehicle unit within 24", does this mean I could move an enemy squad out of melee combat and charge them again? (Hazy on this since I can't bring a model within 1" of myself, but I'm moving him away, so I dunno)

3. Does this go at the start of the shooting phase or during? (Warrants the possibility of moving someone out of melee range, shooting the crap out of them, and then charging them again)

4. Does it count as a shooting power in the case of Ahriman? (So can he target 3 different squads with lash of just move 1 squad 3 different time?)

5. As long as an Independant Character is not attached to a squad, am I able to target him according to the rule of the power? (Or would his status protect him?)

I think that's all I got for the time being. Thanks for the input as usual.
 

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1. I can adjust the squad any way in which I choose, so I can place special characters (heavies, power fists, etc) out in front to gaurantee their kill on my charge?
You can.

2. I can target any LOS avilable non vehicle unit within 24", does this mean I could move an enemy squad out of melee combat and charge them again? (Hazy on this since I can't bring a model within 1" of myself, but I'm moving him away, so I dunno)
You can't
3. Does this go at the start of the shooting phase or during? (Warrants the possibility of moving someone out of melee range, shooting the crap out of them, and then charging them again)
Any time during the shooting phase, like a normal weapon.
4. Does it count as a shooting power in the case of Ahriman? (So can he target 3 different squads with lash of just move 1 squad 3 different time?)
Ahriman can't take Lash, and it does count as shooting a weapon.

5. As long as an Independant Character is not attached to a squad, am I able to target him according to the rule of the power? (Or would his status protect him?)
You can.
 

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Big fish in a little pond
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There are many threads in this forum about lash that answer all of your questions but the quick answer is it counts as a shooting attack so all normal shooting rules apply. You can't target things in hand to hand or ICs that aren't the closest unit. You can move the models however you want up to the maximum movement rolled.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
There are many threads in this forum about lash that answer all of your questions but the quick answer is it counts as a shooting attack so all normal shooting rules apply. You can't target things in hand to hand or ICs that aren't the closest unit. You can move the models however you want up to the maximum movement rolled.
I looked through several pages of threads. The search option also only provides articles. Unless there's another way to do it that I am not aware of? The only threads I could find didn't answer my questions.

Where does it say it counts as a shooting attack? I believe the wording is it is used instead of shooting a weapon. It possesses no shooting characteristics whatsoever, but rather a simple target and move. This would indicate it bypasses IC status since they are a valid unit with 24".
You can't
What is the reasoning for this? Is it because it's assumed they stop moving when the come within 1" of an enemy model and they are already within 1"?
Ahriman can't take Lash, and it does count as shooting a weapon.
I was under the impression he already had every single power in the codex... I'll have to double check when I get access to it again. (Why wouldn't he have this one to?)
It seems there is some disagreement there Ray. ;-)
 

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I was under the impression he already had every single power in the codex... I'll have to double check when I get access to it again. (Why wouldn't he have this one to?)
The powers that he has are specifically listed on page 91 of the chaos codex.

Where does it say it counts as a shooting attack? I believe the wording is it is used instead of shooting a weapon. It possesses no shooting characteristics whatsoever, but rather a simple target and move. This would indicate it bypasses IC status since they are a valid unit with 24".
I too would like to know where lash says it is treated as being targeted or firing a regular weapon. The entry for lash gives criteria for choosing a target, and it does not say that regular shooting rules apply.

While lash is a powerful tool for the chaos commander, I don't think that build an army around lash is effective. Not only is there controversy about the details of this power, there will be armies that will render lash less effective, such as eldar who have abilities against psychic powers, or fully mechanized armies (again eldar, i'm looking at you!). You will have basically a one-trick pony army.
 

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The rules for psychic powers state that they count as firing a weapon for all purposes unless otherwise stated. Lash doesn't say that it doesn't count as firing a weapon, therefore it counts as firing a weapon.
 

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resident iconoclast
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Actually, the rules for psychic power say (and I quote)

"Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual Shooting rules."

It is not specified that the Lash can ignore the IC targeting rules or the rules for shooting into combat, therefor it cannot.

Simple, eh?

So, to answer your questions:

1. Yes

2. No

3. The power can be used at any time during the shooting phase.

4. Ahriman doesn't have Lash of Submission

5. No
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Actually, the rules for psychic power say (and I quote)

"Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual Shooting rules."

It is not specified that the Lash can ignore the IC targeting rules or the rules for shooting into combat, therefor it cannot.

Simple, eh?
Maybe not. Got my codex back (sigh at Ahriman, master of sorcery my a**) and I looked it up again. The wording on how it targets an enemy is rather forward...

"Pick any non-vehicle unit visible to the psyker and within 24"... blah blah".

I decided to see how 'Bolt of Change' and 'Doom bolt' are worded, and they confirm the phrase "counts as weapon". I would assume because it actually has a weapon profile, which Lash does not.

We are also assuming that the Chaos player may "reorganize" the unit anyway in which they choose, which it does not specifically say it can do; but merely moves the unit. Why use the logic that we can do something it doesn't say in one place but not another?
 

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resident iconoclast
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Your logic is flawed.

In one instance, the rules specifically say that the power follows all the normal shooting rules. Nothing in the rules for the ability counteract that.

In another instance, the rule for the lash says that the chaos player moves the unit. This effect isn't restricted by any general rule. It just lets you move the unit, and 'moving a unit' is very clearly defined by the main rules (and that definition includes allowing you to rearrange the unit).

I'm not applying a double standard--you're trying to make a bad analogy.
 

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Just thought I'd mention that if you use the Lash to pull enemy units out of combat your opponent is probably going to get pretty pissed off. Best not to bend the rules and win by using actual tactics instead of exploiting rules.

Katie D
 

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resident iconoclast
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Well, on the bright side, even if Lash could target something in melee, it certainly couldn't actually move a unit out of melee.

One of the very specific restrictions on its ability is that it cannot move its victims within one inch of an enemy model. Any model in base-to-base contact with an enemy can't move without moving within one inch of an enemy model--and thus can't be moved by the Lash at all.

So, no worries on that score, even if your opponent does go with the dubious targeting argument.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Your logic is flawed.
Happy to admit it when it's the case. ;)
In one instance, the rules specifically say that the power follows all the normal shooting rules. Nothing in the rules for the ability counteract that.
Where? If you are talking about the main core book, then I would agree with you; the core book rules are played unless otherwise specified by a codex. In the codex, it says; "Pick any non-vehicle unti visible..."

The only logical draw indicating it is treated as a weapon is the phrase; "instead of using another ranged weapon", but that indicates the psyker is choosing to use the power instead of shooting a weapon. As I used the other weapon based psychich powers as a basis, they state "counts as a weapon", whereas Lash does not.
In another instance, the rule for the lash says that the chaos player moves the unit. This effect isn't restricted by any general rule. It just lets you move the unit, and 'moving a unit' is very clearly defined by the main rules (and that definition includes allowing you to rearrange the unit).
Now this is even more abusive than targetting Characters as a seperate unit. How could a Nob, in the back of a unit, suddenly move to the front of the unit? Much less, do players use that to cover up issues with the total distance of the specific model moving? In the case of the Nob, say you rolled a 9" for the Lash, and moved the unit 9" toward you, but the Nob was in the back of the squad, suddenly he's moved to the front, but his specific model moved an extra few inches to do so, is that really justified?
I'm not applying a double standard--you're trying to make a bad analogy.
I think it works welll; reread it. I've done so several times now.
 

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Blood Axe
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I think it's possible to move that nob to the front, it just requires some creativity. Each model must move the full 2d6" rolled. Question is, does the squad have to move a net distance of 2d6", or does each individual just have to move that 2d6? That's my biggest problem, as it creates this situation:

Say you have a squad that's 7 inches wide, and you roll a 7. You could move the back model to the front, then just invert each model (the guys in the back move to the front etc). It'd basically take 1-2 min to make sure each model moved the full 7 inches, but in the end using your full 2 dimensions of movement you could essentially stay in place, albeit maybe spread out a bit to make up the extra inches. But if anyone actually just used it to move 1 model and everything else back without moving each model the full movement, I'd consider them a cheat.
 

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My thought on this, and many other similar issues, is : if you when reading a rule go like "Heeeyyy wait a minute... this would mean I can do this amazing thing and that amazing thing...yet it seems a bit fishy, better ask the guys on internet if it really is legal." then you are about to do something with the rules (legal or not) that could (would) be considered poor sportsmanship. Poor sportsmanship makes for a boring game, hence it should be avoided.

So, if you are to move a squad 7" move each and every model 7", don't rearrange the models, don't do things like pull units out of cc etc. Just move them.
It's a good enough power already, no need to boost it's effect on the game even further by trying to squeeze it.
 

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resident iconoclast
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Happy to admit it when it's the case. ;)
Where? If you are talking about the main core book, then I would agree with you; the core book rules are played unless otherwise specified by a codex. In the codex, it says; "Pick any non-vehicle unti visible..."
This particular set of rules from the codex does not override the rules in the codex. It offers two additional restrictions (within 24" and non-vehicle) and restates one of the normal Shooting rules (that the target must be visible to the shooter) but it doesn't state or even suggest that the rest of the shooting rules are ignored.

The only logical draw indicating it is treated as a weapon is the phrase; "instead of using another ranged weapon", but that indicates the psyker is choosing to use the power instead of shooting a weapon. As I used the other weapon based psychich powers as a basis, they state "counts as a weapon", whereas Lash does not.
I'm not saying that it should be treated as a weapon. The entire discussion about whether it should be treated as a weapon or not is irrelavent and misleading. The fact is that, however it's treated, the rules specifically state that all psychic powers--all psychic powers, not just those that are treated as weapons--follow the rules for Shooting.

If a power specifically states that it ignores some of the shooting rules, then fine! It does! Lash, though, doesn't state that it ignores any shooting rules. It does have one line which might sort of vaguely imply that it might ignore some nebulous set of shooting rules, but that doesn't cut it. That is not sufficient to override the core rules for psychic powers.

Now this is even more abusive than targetting Characters as a seperate unit. How could a Nob, in the back of a unit, suddenly move to the front of the unit? Much less, do players use that to cover up issues with the total distance of the specific model moving? In the case of the Nob, say you rolled a 9" for the Lash, and moved the unit 9" toward you, but the Nob was in the back of the squad, suddenly he's moved to the front, but his specific model moved an extra few inches to do so, is that really justified?
Once again, the issue of how 'abusive' or 'powerful' an aspect of the power happens to be is not relavent to the discussion. Things are neither legal nor illegal because of how powerful they are. Things are legal or illegal because the rules either allow them or not.

In this case, the rules clearly allow you to move the victims of the spell however you wish, as long as you follow the rules for movement and the specific restrictions set forth in the power.

The rules do not let you pull a unit out of melee.

It doesn't matter which is the more abusive. Bringing that point up amounts to little more than a blatant attempt at obfuscating the point.

I think it works welll; reread it. I've done so several times now.
Well, the fact that you've come to a bad conclusion multiple times doesn't make it a good conclusion.

We have question A: What can the power target?

We have question B: What can the power do to its victims


To answer question A, we look at the rules for Psychic Powers. Those rules state that psychic powers follow all the normal rules for shooting. There, we have our basic set of targeting restrictions (i.e. the same ones used when Shooting).

Then we look at the rules for the power itself. The power gives these restrictions:

The unit must be an enemy unit (well, that's the same as in the shooting rules--no big deal, there)

The unit must be non-vehicle.

The unit must be within 24" of the psyker.

The unit must be visible to the psyker (once again, this was covered in the shooting rules)

That's it. All those rules, and all the rules for Shooting apply. It's not a weapon. It's not a shooting attack. It's simply an ability which follows the rules for Shooting, along with those rules which are specific to its own operation. Nothing about its own rules overrides the fact that it must follow the standard rules for shooting.

Anyway, like I said, even if it could target a unit in melee, it wouldn't be allowed to move any model which started within 1" or an enemy--which means that the unit couldn't be pulled out of melee anyway.

Now, to answer question B. Well, we can look through the rules for Psychic powers all we want, but there's no general guidelines as to the effects of those powers. So, we'll go straight to the rules for the power itself. What do they say?

Well, they say that the unit is moved 2d6" by the Chaos player. It then lists some particular restrictions on that movement, along with noting that this movement isn't slowed by difficult terrain. It notes that the victims, after moving, must take a pin test.

Well, now, what does that mean? Luckily, we can go to the rules, and look and see exactly what it means to move a unit. It means to move each model in the unit along a path which is no more than that unit's movement allotment in inches.

**Now, in this case it's arguable that the each model must move exactly its allotted movement in inches. That's basically irrelavent due to the manner in which movement is measured.**

That's it. We're told that when moving a unit, you move each model in the unit individually. We're given a set of restrictions, both from the power and from the normal rules for moving. As long as you follow all those restrictions--and move each model the proper distance--you can move the models in any way you like. That's just what it means to move a unit.


So, no. The two questions are not really analagous at all.

In one, the relavent rules in the BGB are an overarching set of restrictions on the use of all psychic powers. The power does not ignore these restrictions.

In the other, the relavent rules in the BGB are simply those which define the process to which the rules for the power's effect refer. These rules do apply extra restrictions to the use of the power (i.e. that the unit must maintain coherency) but they do not restrict you from using the power in the manner being discussed here. In fact, the definition they give for moving most certainly allows the use of the power in the manner being discussed here.


You are wrong, here. Your arguments are either erroneous or irrelavent. Admit it. ;)


Andusciassus: As far as I'm concerned, that's exactly the wrong way to read a rule. As I said earlier in this post, how powerful an ability is should never figure in to your understanding of what it does. To detirmine what an ability does, you should read all the relavent rules. They will describe the entirety of what an ability does. They cannot fail to do so.

In this case, the rules clearly describe what Lash does, and among the things that Lash does allows you to manipulate the positioning of models within a unit.

Whether or not you think that this is too powerful, or mean, or whatever doesn't factor in at all. It shouldn't factor in. At all.

It isn't poor sportsmanship to use an ability to its full extent. If I said, "wow, Rites of Battle is cheesy! I can't believe that it not only applies to Morale tests, but to stuff like Target Priority tests as well," would that make it cheesy or unsporting to use your Master's leadership for another unit's Target Priority tests?

No. Of course it wouldn't. The notion that a particular, perfectly legal use of an ability is unsporting because someone, somewhere objects to it is nonsense. It's ridiculous. I can't even believe that anyone would suggest it, it is so utterly laughable.

Rites of Battle would be plenty good enough if it didn't apply to Target Priority Tests. It would still absolutely be a good ability if it only applied to Morale tests. The fact is, though, that it doesn't. It applies to both. That doesn't make using it for Target Priority Tests cheesy or unsporting.

Lash is the same way. Yes, it would still be a good power if it didn't allow you to rearrange models within units. The fact is, though, that it does allow you rearrange models within units. This is clear from the rules. It doesn't matter how powerful that ability is, or whether you like it or not, or whether the ability is good enough without that aspect. All of that is irrelavent claptrap.

It is not poor sportsmanship to gain a legitimate advantage from of one of your abilities.

In fact, it is far closer to poor sportsmanship to become upset because your opponent used one of his abilities in a perfectly legitimate, but highly advantageous way.

No one is trying to sqeeze anything. The rules for this power are quite clear. Attempting to deny someone the full use of the Lash is far more unsporting than any affect that the Lash could possibly generate. It would be no less deplorable than deriding someone for using Rites of Battle to better a unit's chances of passing a Target Priority Test, or refusing to take Pinning Tests from wounds caused by Fury of the Ancients, or becoming upset over any legal use of any part of any special rule ever.

All of those behaviors would be unacceptable in any setting, and they would all be far less sporting than using the ability in question to its full extent. The same goes for Lash.


Gorfang: Every model is moved the distance rolled. You really aren't rolling for the net or average distance which the models in the unit can move.
 

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Blood Axe
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Oh I'm well aware that it doesnt mean net movement. Rather, I was being more specific in that every model must move the full 2d6", not whoever in the unit you so choose, which makes it hard(er) to snipe individual models in the squad, especially if the squad is large.
 

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resident iconoclast
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Or you could just move each model in a curve with a length of exactly seven inches between the point in which they started and the exact position in which you want them to end up.

There will pretty much always be some curve of the right length along which the model can move which ends it up exactly where you want it. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Andusciassus. The points of all of my threads are not to argue rules in favor one way or another, but to openly discuss how people view and interpret the rules they read. One cannot determine how “cheesy” a rule is without first identifying its limits. But more to the point, one cannot know how to use the rule properly without researching it. Sometimes I appear to want it one way, but that’s because talking to other people about it sort of solidifies my interpretations of it. Whereas I was asking if it could target certain people, it becomes more clear through discussion who it can target, etc.

Left of West. The rule also doesn’t state that the normal shooting rules are followed, which yes, I do so is a reasonable point. The “spirit” (for the lack of a better term) of the IC rule is to protect them from enemy fire, because they are a single target in a field of opponents, a normal trooper might not be able to pick them apart specifically when their being fired upon. But we’re talking about psykers and other independent characters (who may or may not be attached to a squad). The rule is there to protect them from taking damage since the model is a huge point sink, and usually better when left alone (who would have thought eh?). But this power inflicts no damage whatsoever; it simply moves the model a random direction. While it’s true that they become more or less susceptible to damage, it’s no different than being targeted with any other psychic power when the power identifies how the enemy is targeted.

Logically speaking, just because all A’s are B’s and all A’s are C’s doesn’t mean all B’s are C’s. The psychic power identifies how a target is acquired under its description; it does not state the target is acquired through the normal shooting fashion OR that IC’s cannot be targeted with the power. If it could not, you think the description *would have* read; “…non-vehicle and non-character…”. It the codex reads; “…pick ANY…” then I would be following its rules as an IC within 24” classifies as “any” unit.

To answer the question of who the power can target, it seems the Codex answers that question; any non-vehicle unit in LOS within 24” of the psyker. Even your detailed list of how the power works confirms this idea, you just lobbed the shooting restrictions on top of it. If we are to confer the shooting restrictions to ALL psychic powers, then I believe at least half the psychic powers I know need to be revised.

The abusive comment was in regards to how models/units are moved in general. Take this example, you keep a Nob in the back of your boys squad in order to protect him from range attacks, including templates weapons (not that it matters much) or being charged by an assault squad and having to take casualties from the base to base units first. However, if you happen to get the charge, suddenly your Nob model is at the front of the back, unleashing hell on whatever squad or busting the tank up because he’s the only one with the power claw. He just happened to have started 18” away from the tank, but the front boy in the squad was 12” away. Now how do you explain that the Nob managed to move 18” full in order to bust that tank or squad? (Without using the Waaaagh power)

To me, the ability to rearrange your units is more dangerous than to single out an IC with the power. So why is it acceptable to you that I can do whatever I want with your unit of 30 models but I can’t do squat with a single model? Remember though if you argue that; “the rules say so” we’ll be back to how we both interpret said rules. Discussions that are along the lines of; “I’m right and you’re wrong” get us nowhere. But I’ll admit you’ve got some interesting points, let’s try to stick to those and not each other. ;)
 

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resident iconoclast
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quote=Revelations;1093194][/SIZE]Left of West. The rule also doesn’t state that the normal shooting rules are followed, which yes, I do so is a reasonable point. [/quote]

Er, actually... The rule does state that the normal shooting rules are followed.

The rules which are specific to the Lash of Submission don't state that, themselves, but it's clear that the rules for psychic powers in general apply to the Lash of Submission

The “spirit” (for the lack of a better term) of the IC rule is to protect them from enemy fire, because they are a single target in a field of opponents, a normal trooper might not be able to pick them apart specifically when their being fired upon. But we’re talking about psykers and other independent characters (who may or may not be attached to a squad). The rule is there to protect them from taking damage since the model is a huge point sink, and usually better when left alone (who would have thought eh?). But this power inflicts no damage whatsoever; it simply moves the model a random direction.
I really don't think that's relavent at all.

For the record, though, I don't think that the Independant Character rule is there just to prevent them from taking damage, but, rather, to prevent them from being picked out of the 'crowd' at range at all--whether the 'attack' is hurting them or just pushing them around. This assertion of yours would not be acceptable as a premise, even were it relavent.

Also, the power doesn't move the model a random direction. It moves them a random distance, and it doesn't move them in a direction at all. The presumption that the rules contain the "phrase "a direction" has lead to more than enough confusion elsewhere. Let's not start it here. The word "direction" doesn't show up in any of the relavent rules at all.

While it’s true that they become more or less susceptible to damage, it’s no different than being targeted with any other psychic power when the power identifies how the enemy is targeted.
The section of the power which 'identifies how the enemy is targeted' doesn't seem to be, either in fact or in intention, the sum and total of the power's targeting rules.

I still see no reason to take this line as comprising the entire set of targeting restrictions for the power. Rather, I maintain that it simply comprises a set of restrictions which is to be taken as in addition to the normal restrictions for psychic powers.

Logically speaking, just because all A’s are B’s and all A’s are C’s doesn’t mean all B’s are C’s.
Er, grats? Is this relavent? I certainly never said anything that even resembles, "All As are Bs, all As, are Cs, therefor all Bs are Cs."
The psychic power identifies how a target is acquired under its description; it does not state the target is acquired through the normal shooting fashion OR that IC’s cannot be targeted with the power. If it could not, you think the description *would have* read; “…non-vehicle and non-character…”. It the codex reads; “…pick ANY…” then I would be following its rules as an IC within 24” classifies as “any” unit.

The rules for the psychic power state some restrictions which are to be taken along with the targeting restrictions which are placed on all powers by default by the general rules. The word 'any' does not serve as evidence to the contrary.

To answer the question of who the power can target, it seems the Codex answers that question; any non-vehicle unit in LOS within 24” of the psyker. Even your detailed list of how the power works confirms this idea, you just lobbed the shooting restrictions on top of it. If we are to confer the shooting restrictions to ALL psychic powers, then I believe at least half the psychic powers I know need to be revised.
If you only look at the codex, then yes. It would seem to answer the question. If you look at the rest of the relavent rules, you'll see that there are, in fact, a number of other restrictions on psychic powers which are not mentioned in the codex.

The presence of targeting restrictions in the codex neither necessitates nor implies that the default targeting restrictions do not also apply. The presumption that they do is simply an error in reasoning. You can't ignore some rules just because there are other rules which perform a similar set of tasks.


The abusive comment was in regards to how models/units are moved in general. Take this example, you keep a Nob in the back of your boys squad in order to protect him from range attacks, including templates weapons (not that it matters much) or being charged by an assault squad and having to take casualties from the base to base units first. However, if you happen to get the charge, suddenly your Nob model is at the front of the back, unleashing hell on whatever squad or busting the tank up because he’s the only one with the power claw. He just happened to have started 18” away from the tank, but the front boy in the squad was 12” away. Now how do you explain that the Nob managed to move 18” full in order to bust that tank or squad? (Without using the Waaaagh power)
Once again, is this relavent? I agree that you can't move any of the models more than their alloted amount. That doesn't have any bearing on the conversation.

As any reasonably competent player knows, it's entirely possible to rearrange the models within a unit while moving them without cheating. It is possible to do so with Lash of Submission, too.

I'm not suggesting that you use the Lash to move the Nob more or less than the distance rolled--only that you move the Nob--and everyone else--in such a way that they end up in a formation that is advantagous to you. This can be done easily without moving any models too far--or moving them too little.

To me, the ability to rearrange your units is more dangerous than to single out an IC with the power. So why is it acceptable to you that I can do whatever I want with your unit of 30 models but I can’t do squat with a single model? Remember though if you argue that; “the rules say so” we’ll be back to how we both interpret said rules.
This, too, is just irrelavent. You can do what the rules say you can do. The fact that they allow something which is more powerful than something they don't allow simply doesn't matter.

The more you keep repeating this, the more I worry that you really are just trying to obfuscate the point.

The point is not and never has been whether any of us like what the ability does. The point is how we think the ability works.

If you're letting considerations like this alter your reasoning, you are being irrational, pure and simple. I'm not going to field this point, and you should stop putting it forward. It simply is not relavent.

So, yes. The only argument we're having is how we interpret the rules. I'm not certain what other argument you're trying to inject, here, but it's off topic and I doubt that I'm particularly interested in having it.

Discussions that are along the lines of; “I’m right and you’re wrong” get us nowhere. But I’ll admit you’ve got some interesting points, let’s try to stick to those and not each other. ;)
Fair. Luckily, the discussion at no point so far has become one of, "I'm right, and you're wrong."

As a note, do you at least agree that, even if you could target models in melee, that you wouldn't be able to do anything to the ones that are within 1" of enemy models (i.e. all the ones in base-to-base contact and probably some more)?
 
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If you only look at the codex, then yes. It would seem to answer the question. If you look at the rest of the relevant rules, you'll see that there are, in fact, a number of other restrictions on psychic powers which are not mentioned in the codex.

The presence of targeting restrictions in the codex neither necessitates nor implies that the default targeting restrictions do not also apply. The presumption that they do is simply an error in reasoning.
This right here is something that we should all bear in mind. I see no reason why the Lash would be any different. On the contrary, the Lash seems perfectly in line with the BGB concerning the issues at hand.

This is a very informative debate. Thanks goes out to everyone for keeping the discussion upright and congenial.
 
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