Anti-mech Tau strategies.

3237 Views 65 Replies 18 Participants Last post by IGFreely, Feb 22, 2006

Silver Wings

Discussion Starter · Feb 4, 2006

I did do a search, possibly not very well.

I was in a tournament today and played 3 games, Winning big time against a 'Nid MC list and SM Raven Guard list.

However I also played against Mech Tau. 3 Hammerheads, 3 'fishies with Firewarriors plus some Missile Pod Crisis suits.

I got massacared. Escalation hurt and my rolling was attrocious but I was beaten from turn 2 when his army arrived.

I use a Grenadier army, plus 6 Lascannon heavy weapons, 2 Russ and 2 Hellhounds.

What do people recomend? Deep Strike perhaps melta/plasma thier rear armour? Infiltrate? I considered a Basalisk but he was within 36" so fast it would have been pointless. Rough Riders can't deal with 6 av12+ vehicle and neither can my sanity.

If this is a repeat thread then sorry.

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Diggums Hammer

· #2 · Feb 4, 2006

Mech Tau is definatly a hard nut to crack than regular Tau for Grenadier Lists.

A couple of things to help:

Fire Support Autocannon Squads. Autocannons are great vs Devilfish and good VS Tau in General, and that is what you need to kill them. I would have two squads in a Grenadier Army + 1 Lascannon Squad.

Two Basilisks: Put one on each long table edge (assuming it is not a Cleanse mission), and you can reach the whole board.

Don't take any other Tanks: I find they get popped fast by the Hammerheads. That or hide your tanks until your HWs have neutralized the Hammerheads.

Cameoleline: A very worthwhile Doctrine against Tau.

Three Veteran Squads with Lascannons or Autocannons: Infiltrate them into good lines of fire to pop HHs/DF.

Use your Grenadiers for taking out Stealths, capturing objectives and mopping up transportless Firewarriors.

Hope that helps.

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Ylide

· #3 · Feb 5, 2006

My usual opponent plays Mech Tau. It's especially tough for us guard players to beat....we're at an inherent disadvantage because of their mobility, firepower, and skimmer rules. It's hard to take down vehicles that you can only glance, especially when they can reroll immobilizing hits, plus they get to fire main guns after a 12" move.

Diggums' suggestions are great...autocannons are your friend when taking out transports. Deepstriking meltagun/plasmagun teams are good for working over hammerheads or broadsides. Cameleoline is very very useful in that you not only get a save against their guns, you get a good one.

I still use my tanks against them, but I put my tanks into positions where he has to expose his hammerheads to get a clear shot. I've found that basilisks are not all that useful unless he has crisis suits on the table. You can pop vehicles with it if you are lucky on the scatter dice, but you still can only get glancing hits, wasting a potential ordnance penetrating hit.

My best tactic, however, is to just play my Necrons when he uses his Tau.

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Silver Wings

Discussion Starter · #4 · Feb 5, 2006

With 12" movement on everything wont any mech Tau be within 36" pretty fast neutralising them?

I agree with you on the Tanks though. My Russ went down to a plasma shot to the side and the Demolisher took just 1 Railgun shot.

Deep striking with Plasma or Melta? with submunitions everywhere the squads wont last.

I know you support the use of Chimaera's for Stormies, but aginst Railguns...are you sure?

Robizzle

· #5 · Feb 5, 2006

I used to play against Mech Tau all the time. I'm sure you're aware of that seeing as it was your mech tau that I was playing, wings.

If I look at it, I think you don't really have a very good army suited for taking on mech Tau. With that many railguns it seem your squads will go splat, and so will your tanks.

Deep striking WOULD be a good idea, it's just risky. If you can deep strike a unit behind a hammerhead, then somehow be able to keep out of LoS from any other hammerheads, even when they can move, or give yourself cover. As to say, make it so only 1 fire lane is open to the hammerhead, and make sure a squad of lascannons can see the entire lane. Plus, I wouldn't be suprised if they have more pressing matters. Another good hint would be keeping your tanks behind cover until the stormies arrive, then you can pounce out, giving the 3 hammerheads about 6 targets. I know they're good, but they're not THAT good.

Addoran

· #6 · Feb 5, 2006

Indeed, I myself feel (possibly controversial moment..) that Mech Tau exploit the same niche as Armoured Company. If you don't tweak your list to fight them, it's difficult (ok near impossible) to have enough anti-tank weapons to bring them down effectively.

The usual suggestions apply, try swapping out your heavy bolters for autocannons and increasing your number of lascannons. Unfortunately the problem is that if you do so your no longer playing your tournament list. Time to decide which way you want to go.

Ylide

· #7 · Feb 6, 2006

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Mech Tau is a little unbalanced for general tournament play. That is precisely my opinion, that you have to slant your list against them to stay competitive, which hurts your overall army balance. It wouldn't be so bad if their skimmers couldn't all fire after 12", only be glanced, AND get to reroll immobilized results. You either need a metric crapload of anti-armor or you need some really lucky rolls on the glance table. Oh yeah, and they're all considered tanks, too, so after unloading all the fire warriors, you get to have half your squads take tank shock morale tests every turn. Skimmers shouldn't be allowed to tank shock.

Captain Strong

· #8 · Feb 6, 2006

Why not have a couple armoured fists (with lascannons) that stay stationary. That way, the lascannons get to shoot, as well as some lasguns AND whatever the chimera has. When it gets destroyed, you at least have some cover.

An armoured fist squad with a lascannon in a chimera that has a Multi-Laser, and a hull HB costs 170 points. A 5-man veteran squad with a sergant, a lascannon and a similar chimera to the fist squad costs 145. That's 3 Str 6 shot, 1 str 9 shot, and 3 str 5 shots at BS4 or BS3, depending on your preference.

If you're lucky, I estimate that your chimeras would stand for a couple of turns, and then you would have some lovely cover to deter tank shock.

Maybe there's some way to set your stuff up so that it's difficult for their vehicles to use tank shock, or whatever. Oh! What about sentinels with Multi-lasers and hunterkiller missiles? 55 points (65 with a lascannon) able to take up positions, knock out tanks, and stop tank shock from happening. Each one down wouldn't be much of a loss, points-wise, and possibly not too much of a target. However, their value in limiting your opponent's movement would be rather high. Having a wall of three sentinels, 4" inches apart, means 12 inches + 3x(their base size) across that a tank cannot move through without destroying first. Plus your infantry (or chimeras, see above) can still shoot through the gaps.

Possibly the key is to limit their movement, and wall them. Kind of like a game of football. I'll go play a few more games with my mech tau friend and then talk some more.

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IGFreely

· #9 · Feb 6, 2006

I like Strong's suggestion, and I use this myself as well.

Throw 3+ autocannon/H-K or lascannon/H-K sentinels out there and pop off a lot of shots in your first round. I believe it is also a good idea to include an LR on such a list because your opponent will be forced to choose his targets. This is also a case where I'd put a H-K on everything that can mount one. It's worth the points premium to take as many shots as possible as fast as possible.

You still need a lot of lascannons, preferably in line squads. ACs are nice, but they can't touch the front of a hammerhead. In Vet squads, you don't have the mobility to ensure a side or rear shot, so I'd give the Vets lascannons. Use these vs. the Hammerheads and the ACs/H-Ks vs. the Devilfish.

Heavy Bolters are overrated in this situation.

Basilisks are overrated vs. true Mech Tau. They're not so hot vs. vehicle armor, so all they're good for is popping suits.

But don't forget that the Hammerheads are your biggest threat. They can chew up any unit the IG can field without breaking stride. They gotta go down as fast as possible.

EDIT: Get smoke on all vehicles and don't hesitate to pop it early. It levels the glance playing field for a turn at least.

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Ylide

· #10 · Feb 6, 2006

Captain Strong said:
Why not have a couple armoured fists (with lascannons) that stay stationary. That way, the lascannons get to shoot, as well as some lasguns AND whatever the chimera has. When it gets destroyed, you at least have some cover.

An armoured fist squad with a lascannon in a chimera that has a Multi-Laser, and a hull HB costs 170 points. A 5-man veteran squad with a sergant, a lascannon and a similar chimera to the fist squad costs 145. That's 3 Str 6 shot, 1 str 9 shot, and 3 str 5 shots at BS4 or BS3, depending on your preference.

If you're lucky, I estimate that your chimeras would stand for a couple of turns, and then you would have some lovely cover to deter tank shock.

Maybe there's some way to set your stuff up so that it's difficult for their vehicles to use tank shock, or whatever. Oh! What about sentinels with Multi-lasers and hunterkiller missiles? 55 points (65 with a lascannon) able to take up positions, knock out tanks, and stop tank shock from happening. Each one down wouldn't be much of a loss, points-wise, and possibly not too much of a target. However, their value in limiting your opponent's movement would be rather high. Having a wall of three sentinels, 4" inches apart, means 12 inches + 3x(their base size) across that a tank cannot move through without destroying first. Plus your infantry (or chimeras, see above) can still shoot through the gaps.

Possibly the key is to limit their movement, and wall them. Kind of like a game of football. I'll go play a few more games with my mech tau friend and then talk some more.

What you're suggesting is basically mechanizing one's IG list, which is of course a nice counter to an opponent's mechanized army. Most Tau lists don't have much of a problem with popping chimeras, though. I guess it depends on how many threats you can put in front of him at once.

Also, you're forgetting that the Tau transports and tanks are skimmers...there's really no way to block a tank shock from a skimmer since they can cross over any obstacle you might put in front of them.

dicegod

· #11 · Feb 7, 2006

what about pumping that much fire in a HH or fish had it can´t move at least for the next turn thus make it able to penetrate it next turn and then move to another. every glancing hit against a mech tau hurts since it makes there transports vulnerable to fire next turn.

jancz

· #12 · Feb 7, 2006

Addoran said:
Indeed, I myself feel (possibly controversial moment..) that Mech Tau exploit the same niche as Armoured Company. If you don't tweak your list to fight them, it's difficult (ok near impossible) to have enough anti-tank weapons to bring them down effectively.

well... armored comanies usually field just tanks...maybe a few infantry.
however a mechinized tau list would be easier to beat then an ac.
because.
a. these arent leman russes they have lighter armor
b.after you destroy tanks theres a bunch of soft targets to shoot at.

i would think maximize your at weapons. autocannons are good. also keep any thing that isnt at out of line of sight.if you keep your regualr infantry out of sight its either
a. you kill all there tanks
or
b.they kill all your at. and must advance to fire on hidden guys

i suggest trying to have a lot a jungle terrian

IGFreely

· #13 · Feb 7, 2006

. . . except for the fact that there are three Hammerheads in this Mech list. The Russ doesn't have anything on the HH. This is not a light armor list by any means, as ACs will have big problems with the HHs.

As, for trying to have a lot of covering terrain, regardless of whether your opponent lets you finagle the board in your favor, this will mess you up. You won't be able to concentrate fire at range, which means his suits and HHs will be able to move and fire (or JSJ) with impunity while his fish of fury can isolate your line squads and ace them individually.

Ylide

· #14 · Feb 8, 2006

Also, don't forget that Tau tanks can move 12" and still fire their main guns. Since you can only get glancing hits when they move more than 6", and they can force a reroll of an immobilized result, you really only have a 50% of doing getting a stun, armament destroyed, or vehicle destroyed result...and that's AFTER hitting and breaking the armor value. Since transports don't really have any important guns, only results of 3 or 6 on the glance table cause them any problems. Also, if you do stun one, you still need to hit it again next turn.

It takes far too much commitment of fire to do anything to their tanks. Once the transports have unloaded, they are not worth shooting at anymore but can still tank shock your infantry and block your avenue of assault.

Also, target priority rules for 2-man squads of gun drones make it even worse. Imagine 2 devilfish full of firewarriors unloading behind the transports, with 4 little gun drones in on the front side. You need to take a Ld test to ignore the drones and fire at the real threat, despite the fact the the drones come with the vehicle.

It's terribly unbalanced. Any close-combat or really, any non-mechanized army except for Necrons hardly stand a chance to a good mech Tau player.

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Triumph Of Man

· #15 · Feb 8, 2006

Indeed, I myself feel (possibly controversial moment..) that Mech Tau exploit the same niche as Armoured Company. If you don't tweak your list to fight them, it's difficult (ok near impossible) to have enough anti-tank weapons to bring them down effectively.

The usual suggestions apply, try swapping out your heavy bolters for autocannons and increasing your number of lascannons. Unfortunately the problem is that if you do so your no longer playing your tournament list. Time to decide which way you want to go.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Mech Tau is a little unbalanced for general tournament play. That is precisely my opinion, that you have to slant your list against them to stay competitive, which hurts your overall army balance. It wouldn't be so bad if their skimmers couldn't all fire after 12", only be glanced, AND get to reroll immobilized results. You either need a metric crapload of anti-armor or you need some really lucky rolls on the glance table. Oh yeah, and they're all considered tanks, too, so after unloading all the fire warriors, you get to have half your squads take tank shock morale tests every turn. Skimmers shouldn't be allowed to tank shock.

Where's your backbone guardsmen!!

We aren't going to concede defeat to those blue fish faced xeno scum! And certainly not because they're using some pathetic excuses for tanks!

"See? That ain't proper armour like you'd see on an Imperial tank - no it's flimsy, fall-down-in-a-strong-breeze, I-hope-they-don't-spit-at-me armour."

-----Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken

Want a competetive tournie list that can swat mech obessed fish faced freaks? Try this. (Still building it, I'll get there eventually)

Doctorines:
Iron Discipline
Close order drill
Veterens
Sharpshooters
Drop Troops

HQ Command 101 pts
Heroic Senior Officer: Power Weapon, Iron Discipline
Standard Bearer
x1 Guardsman
x1 Mortar Team

Anti Tank support team 120 pts
x3 Lascannons
Sharpshooters

Veterens 88 pts
x1 Sergeant
x1 Lascannon team
x1 Plasma gunner
x2 Veterens

Veterens 88 pts
x1 Sergeant
x1 Lascannon team
x1 Plasma gunner
x2 Veterens

Platoon command 50 pt
Junior Officer
x2 Guardsmen
x1 Heavy Bolter Team

Infantry Squad 70 pts
x8 Guardsmen
x1 Heavy Bolter team

Infantry Squad 70 pts
x8 Guardsmen
x1 Heavy Bolter team

Platoon command 55 pts
Junior Officer: Iron Discipline
x2 Guardsmen
x1 Heavy Bolter Team

Infantry Squad 85 pts
x7 Guardsmen
x1 Autocannon team
x1 Plasma Gunner

Infantry Squad 85 pts
x7 Guardsmen
x1 Autocannons team
x1 Plasma Gunner

Platoon command 75 pts
Junior Officer: Iron Discipline, Honourifica Imperialis, Power Weapon
x2 Guardsmen

Infantry Squad 95 pts
x7 Guardsmen
x1 Lascannon team
x1 Plasma Gunner

Infantry Squad 95 pts
x7 Guardsmen
x1 Lascannon team
x1 Plasma Gunner

Hellhound 128 pts
Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
Searchlight

Basilisk 125 pts
Indirect Fire

Leman Russ Battle Tank 165 pts
Hull Lascannon
Heavy Bolter sponsons

----------

Anti-tank:

7 Lascannons

Anti-light tank:

2 Autocannons
6 Plasmaguns

Anti-Horde:

4 Heavy bolters
1 Russ
1 Bassie
1 Hellhound

I'm confident that can deal with the Fish, and it's got more anti horde than my current list (Which beats most horde armies quite comfortably). Only thing that I'm a little hairy with is the lack of counter assault, I'd like at least one commie with a powerfist in there, but I'll live.

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MobiusPrime

· #16 · Feb 8, 2006

Mech Tau are indeed one of the more nastier opponents to face for an Imperial Guard commander.

Here's my two bits:

Concentrate fire on one tank as much as you reasonably can. If you get luck and destroy it, great! Move to the next tank. If you get lucky and stun it, great! Move to the next tank. I just want to slap my forehead when someone stuns a Hammerhead and then proceeds to blaze away at it with the rest of their army while another Hammerhead sits ready to pounce next turn. If the Hammerhead get's stunned, that means that next turn, you'll be able to pen it, instead of glance. Remember this.

If an enemy is closing in on your Basilisk, remember that you can move the Basilisk and shoot directly, even if you bought the indirect fire upgrade. You'll still have to roll 2D6-take highest for scatter, but you'd have done that anyway for shooting indirectly.

Hellhounds make Firewarriors cry in their pants!

Ultimately, I think the best answer to Mech Tau (or Eldar, for that matter) are Sentinels. Give these AT-ST rip-off Auto/Lascannon and Hunter Killer missiles, and bring lots of them. This is the armor equivalent of the min/max marines with Lascannons vs 160+ Guardsmen. The Hammerhead is wasted when it kills a Sentinel, as there's just another one 'round the corner, or it could've been killing a Leman Russ or something equally as nasty.

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onlainari

· #17 · Feb 9, 2006 (Edited)

I've played all infantry imperial guard and mech tau at tournaments. I came 13/26 with the guard, those games happen to be the only games I've ever used guard. I came 8/74 with my mech tau. I believe Mech Tau is a better army. Just as iron warriors is better than both.

The way to beat mech tau with a tournament imperial guard army would be to outshoot and outrange it. Mech Tau can outshoot imperial guard within 24", imperial guard outshoot mech tau 25-48". It's not easy to put in words how to do this, experienced IG players would know.

One thing is for sure, demolishers and hellhounds do not scare mech tau. Their range is too short to be effective, mech tau is fluid enough to avoid them and attack other areas of the battlefield.

I should point out that in general, not just against mech tau, any smart IG player knows not to put 3 lascannons in the same unit, stick with missile launchers in anti-tank squads, lascannons in infantry squads.

Wings of Doom, deep striking might seem effective at first, but all it does it lose you the unit, mech-tau is all about mobile firepower.

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Triumph Of Man

· #18 · Feb 9, 2006

onlainari said:
I should point out that in general, not just against mech tau, any smart IG player knows not to put 3 lascannons in the same unit, stick with missile launchers in anti-tank squads, lascannons in infantry squads.

Thanks Onlainari, guess that disqualifies me, Diggums and Addoran as smart. :lol:

At only 5 more points a pop, I'm very willing to put Lascannons in this position. So far they've paid off quite nicely. Yes they warrant a bit of enemy fire, but their superior range can see them safe from many weapons. As does the cover they deploy in.

Of course it isn't safe to have all your eggs in one basket, hence why the Lascannons are spread around.

onlainari

· #19 · Feb 9, 2006 (Edited)

Well then forget about what I say, if you think it's better to have lascannons over missile launchers in anti-tank squads. I only have 6 games battlefield experience anyway, I'm probably wrong. Anyway, for a tournament list with mech tau in mind, I'd use something like this:

1500 Pts

Allow StormTroopers
Regimental Organisation: Drop Troops
Skills and Drills: Iron Discipline
Skills and Drills: Light Infantry
Skills and Drills: Sharp Shooters

HQ

Command Platoon @ 221 Pts
- Command Squad @ [106] Pts
  -1 Heroic Senior Officer with Laspistol & Power Fist, Iron Discipline; Standard Bearer; Laspistols & ccw
- Anti Tank Squad @ [115] Pts
  -3 Missile Launchers; Light Infantry; SharpShooters

Elites

10 Hardened Veterans @ 120 Pts
-Lascannon; Plasma Gun
10 Storm Troopers @ 166 Pts
-Veteran Sergeant with Honorifica Imperialis, Laspistol & Power Weapon; 2 Plasma Guns; Infiltrate

Troops

Infantry Platoon @ 235 Pts
- Command Squad @ [65] Pts
  -Junior Officer with Laspistol & Power Fist, Iron Discipline; 4 Laspistols & ccw
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
  -Lascannon
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
  -Lascannon
Infantry Platoon @ 308 Pts
- Command Squad @ [55] Pts
  -Junior Officer with Laspistol & ccw, Iron Discipline; Mortar; 3 Lasguns
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
  -Autocannon; Plasma Gun
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
  -Autocannon; Plasma Gun
- Infantry Squad @ [83] Pts
  -Autocannon; Grenade Launcher

Heavy Support

1 Leman Russ Battle Tank @ 150 Pts
-Battle Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Extra Armour
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank @ 150 Pts
-Battle Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Extra Armour
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank @ 150 Pts
-Battle Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Extra Armour

Models in Army: 94

Total Army Cost: 1500

Drop troops won't really be used, maybe to drop one squad somewhere, that's all.

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Triumph Of Man

· #20 · Feb 9, 2006

Ummm, are there meant to be hull mounted weapons on those russes?

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