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Discussion Starter #1
I played a Apocalypse battle yesterday, about 5000 pnts Nids vs 2500 Eldar and 2500 Chaos.

We used Endless Swarm, because it's just great to have so many models to get recycled when they die. We used "World Digestion" and "They're all around us" from Apoc Reload book.
I did an Apoc battle before, and then I fielded also an Endless Swarm with Flank March (and carefull planning too).

Both of the time, I got comment about Endless Swarm being just too overwelming. My first apocalypse battle, I thought that apoc battle were all about being overwelming, with huge numbers, big guns, fearsome warmachines and crazy special rules for custom battles. But after my second game, I started to see their point. All the while they tried to blast both synapse and the gaunts from the table, in the end those gaunts are still able to capture points when they re-enter the battlefield from either table edge or tunnels. We placed our objectives close too our entry points, so when the gaunts are recycled, they are immediately near an objective.

The last part struck me to be the overwelming part of the Endless Swarm formation. Just can easily splatter those gaunts, but they always get back. Even if you leave a few standing, they'll just suicide themselves by throwing themselves in CC with an enemy unit, and get back on the table next turn, right next to an objective. They can keep contesting objectives, and make it extremely hard to keep them from doing that!

What are your thoughts about it, and those of your opponents?
 

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Blood Boy
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Well I haven't used it however other races in apocalypse get nastyness too. I think the best way to find out if it is really too overwelming is to try and discover if anybody else would know a way to defeat it. Players on in the other 40K armies forum sections may have cooked up a way to stop it that your opponents don't know of. Go have a poke/search in the other 40K sections and see if they have anything. Never tell them you think it may be too powerful as they will almost always say that it is even if they can and have stopped it. A true test is only taken when someone doesn't know it's happening.
 

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Dark Eldar Gerbil
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In general I believe Flank march is the most overpowered ability in apoc. The only way to stop being annihilated by it is by taking an anti Flank march ability or taking it yourself.
It has gotten to the point of either you aren't allowed to take it or you are only allowed to move a certain amount of your army on the board from it.

Sewer ducts (or whatever they are called) on the other hand are a lot more balanced as you can actually stop people from using them is by crowding over the top with a squad/tank or a baneblade and therefore not allowing the enemy on to the field. A sure fire way to limit the use of them.

Another suggestion might be to house rule that they take a turn to get to those points when being recycled. However you might view this as overly limiting as you only really ever get through about 4/5 turns of apoc meaning they might never be recycled.

I haven't actually used this ability as I only have 75 gaunts so I can't really comment sorry.
 

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In general I believe Flank march is the most overpowered ability in apoc. The only way to stop being annihilated by it is by taking an anti Flank march ability or taking it yourself.
It has gotten to the point of either you aren't allowed to take it or you are only allowed to move a certain amount of your army on the board from it.

Sewer ducts (or whatever they are called) on the other hand are a lot more balanced as you can actually stop people from using them is by crowding over the top with a squad/tank or a baneblade and therefore not allowing the enemy on to the field. A sure fire way to limit the use of them.

Another suggestion might be to house rule that they take a turn to get to those points when being recycled. However you might view this as overly limiting as you only really ever get through about 4/5 turns of apoc meaning they might never be recycled.

I haven't actually used this ability as I only have 75 gaunts so I can't really comment sorry.
I agree, Flank March is quite overpowered. I think it should be disallowed unless you take a formation that has it (so the whole army can't take it). Or just line the board edge with spinegaunts so the flank marchers have nowhere to go. My friends did that to me last Apoc game with Grots to prevent us from flank marching.

As for Endless Swarm, most people don't take it in regular games, but for Apoc I can see it being quite effective. It is still expensive so I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Hmm, maybe I'll give it a try next game...
 

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Just as a thought, ive never played with an endless swarm, but if something like a wraithlord/Biotitan/Heirodule, basicaly anything with a toughness so high the gaunts cant kill it, got into combat with the swarm, due to pile in moves and defenders react, would the swarm not suround the creature, be unable to kill it, and then have to sit back and die? As i said ive never played with a swarm so there might be a rule im missing.
 

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Just as a thought, ive never played with an endless swarm, but if something like a wraithlord/Biotitan/Heirodule, basicaly anything with a toughness so high the gaunts cant kill it, got into combat with the swarm, due to pile in moves and defenders react, would the swarm not suround the creature, be unable to kill it, and then have to sit back and die? As i said ive never played with a swarm so there might be a rule im missing.
You say this like it would be a bad thing. If you have this big mean creature stuck in combat with a swarm it's probably a good thing. Only problem is the rules regarding Gigantic Creatures/Heavy vehicles. If a GC is in combat w/non-GC/HV move all models in combat at least 1" away at end of combat. Same for heavy walkers. It's a way to avoid this. But still throw them against your opponents regular walkers/MC and sit back and let them die knowing they'll just come right back to be a pain in the ass again. That's my favorite strategy with the little buggers. Annoyed the hell out of my opponent because He couldn't keep them down.

I would tell you to give Meiotic spores a shot. They sound freaking awesome. Otherwise, against some opponents this strategy will be more effective than others. Remember you are sinking a fair amount of points into this.
 

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I played a 2v2 apocalypse game a while ago, 2 tyranids vs 2 SM, and we used the endless with flank march. Yes, that combo is overpowered. It's not even overpowered in a fun way, because we spent that game basically just getting our army blown up, and yet we won simply because we could plop down sqauds right next to objectives at the end. Our chaos/orks vs SM game was much more fun and varied.

Since Apocalypse games are there purely for fun, I probably wouldn't be doing that combo in the future. The problem may just be fixed by making sure your objectives are far away from table edges.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yeah, I have to agree with you Ran49. The ability of a brood to pop up again next to an objective was their main point for Endless Swarm and Flank March to be overpowered. But besides that, our opponent had a very small deployment zone, and with the help of Flank March and Carefull planning, we were able to keep them cornered until the whole army was able to come in and kill stuff. Was truely nasty.

Next time we'll probably think of a special custom mission or something, like an massive attack on the border of a hive city or something. :soldier:
 
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