Archon with punisher or Aganiser?

1691 Views 25 Replies 11 Participants Last post by ArchonAstaroth, Feb 20, 2006

lorddraahk

Discussion Starter · Feb 1, 2006

Hi all

Untill now I've always equiped my Archon with an agoniser. Now I consider to change this due to a tournament comming up. I am used to playing 1500p battles, doing fairly well with my current list - got 2nd place at Fanatic (Belgium). However this next tournament is limitted to 1250p. Hence I need to drop some units. I'll drop the retninue for sure, making my Archon a single character. But do I stick to 'my normal combo' (agoniser, combatdrugs, ccw, shadowfield, plasma) or do I go for punisher, C.drugs, S.field, Tormentor Helm, animus Vitae?
Any help is welcome.
Thnx

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

Neferata

· #2 · Feb 1, 2006

Well, whatever you decide to take, I personally feel that the animus is a waste of points. Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful piece of wargear, but unless you actually capture some prisoners, then it becomes a waste of 15 points. Remember, to take a prisoner you must force a unit in hand to hand to fall back, even if you force the unit to fall back it still isnt a 100% chance that you'll take a prisoner. Against some armies you have no chance what-so-ever to take prisoners (daemonhunters, necron, and its HIGHLY unlikely that you will ever take a tyranid or space/chaos marine prisoner).

If you can it to work out for you then it IS nice, but for tournament play, you probably wont get a chance to use it 80% of the time.

If you took your lord with an incubi retinue, then I would DEFINITELY say go with the agoniser, but if he/she is going out as an independent character then I would probably opt to go with a punisher/t-helm build. With combat drugs you can tweak out and have a S5 lord, which is very respectable.

If you're a fan of bikes, then I would suggest maybe even puting your archon on a bike with a power weapon/t-helm combo. But if you are giving the lord a punisher/power weapon, give your succubus/sybarite an agonizer just in case.

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medic_40771

· #3 · Feb 1, 2006

An Archon with an Agonizer is hunting high toughness targets.
An Archon with a Punisher is hunting T5 and lower (regular troops).

You may have to redesign part of your army to accomodate this switch.

KwiKwag

· #4 · Feb 1, 2006

medic_4077 said:
An Archon with an Agonizer is hunting high toughness targets.
An Archon with a Punisher is hunting T5 and lower (regular troops).

You may have to redesign part of your army to accomodate this switch.

I agree with this statement. If he is going to footslog on his own or eventually be on his own then I would agree that the agonizer is best. Idea being he can go after that high toughness target and not worry about his retinue.

As for the punisher, I like it with a retinue and I like it with a power armor enemy - Hot knife through butter.

As for the lord, if he is on his own (no retinue) then I would either:

A) see if a jetbike squad are in my list and the jetbike squad and the lord can hang with each other with a power weapon. Not part of the squad but travel next to them using them like a screen.

B) if running a wwp army, I would consider putting him behind a large warrior squad and for him to carry the wwp with an agonizer. Idea is the lord will break off and chase down targets on his own (high toughness targets)

C) if not running a wwp and not on a bike, I would put him on a raider most likely with a wych squad or sometimes with a raider squad. Since most of my sybarites and succubuses have agonizers then I would give him a punisher - I think lords benefit more from the punisher than the sybs and succs do. (However, if I know I am going against a power armor foe ONLY - I have outfitted the sybs and succs with punishers).

I see that Neferata has his outfitted opposite than mine in regards to the retinue - and that makes me nervous:| He has more experience than I and I am not sure his reasoning - I am sure it is statistical in nature :yes:

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Neferata

· #5 · Feb 1, 2006

My reasoning for giving my lord an agonizer if he has a retinue (an incubi retinue especially) is because that since the incubi all have punishers, they'll be able to cut down the enemies in power armor (space marines *cough*) with great ease.

In the event that my retinue comes into combat with a tougher unit (deathguard, tyranid monstrous creatures, or other T5+ creatures), then I'd rather have at least one person in that squad with an agonizer. They [agonizers] also give you at least some of a chance to take down dreadnaughts.

If you KNOW that you're going to be facing a low toughness army, such as Tau, IG, or SoB, then a punisher on the archon is the optimal way to go. But for competitive gaming purposes, I'd rather give my retinue Lord the agonizer since it can handle all enemies you may face.

On the other hand, IMO, if the lord is going to be joining a non-incubi unit, then I'd give the lord a punisher and the sybarite/succubus an agonizer.

In most 1850 point games, I usually have an archon on a bike with a power weapon, and a dracon [with agonizer] in a raider full of incubi. It gives me some great versatility and makes for two units that are extremely potent in close combat.

This is just my personal preference

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karantalsis

· #6 · Feb 2, 2006

Anyone mind explaining why they are putting hteir archons on bikes? it loses you ALOT of charge potential and only gains you +1 toughness, which doesn't count against instant death, why do it?

Neferata

· #7 · Feb 2, 2006 (Edited)

The bike also gives your archon +1 strength. I also put the archon on a bike because it increases his armor save (so that if/when the shadowfield fails he isnt TOTALLY screwed). The +1 toughness is also a HUGE help. I'd much rather get wounded by marines on a 4+ than on a 3+. You also dont have to worry about him getting entangled if his transport gets shot down. Puting him on a bike also makes him more mobile (especially now that DE bikes count as Eldar bikes).

Only downside I see in puting an archon on a bike is that he counts as an independent character, and that he cant take as much other wargear (although I've always been able to fit everything I needed on him anyway).

Sure, you cant use the 12" assault combat drug option if you put him on a bike, but I personally wouldnt want my archon to break off from his squad and go solo against a squad in an assault.

Ebon Hand

· #8 · Feb 2, 2006 (Edited)

If I remember the unit definitions in the back of the rulebook correctly, Dark Eldar bikes dont count as Eldar Jetbikes, they count as Jetbikes. Free 6 inch move during assualt with dark eldar jetbikes? It would be "Jetbikes for teh win, GG".:yes:

karantalsis

· #9 · Feb 2, 2006

Neferata said:
The bike also gives your archon +1 strength.

So does the punisher for less points

Neferata said:
I also put the archon on a bike because it increases his armor save (so that if/when the shadowfield fails he isnt TOTALLY screwed).

No it doesn't, this has been clarified many times Reaver Jetbikes do not improve your armour save.

Neferata said:
The +1 toughness is also a HUGE help. I'd much rather get wounded by marines on a 4+ than on a 3+. You also dont have to worry about him getting entangled if his transport gets shot down. Puting him on a bike also makes him more mobile (especially now that DE bikes count as Eldar bikes).

DE Jetbikes do NOT count as Eldar Jetbikes, the Wargear book does not overule prior publications (and yes I checked this at GW HQ) due to the fact that it is a compilation ad full of misprints such as termie armour as 3+/5++, thus no extra 6" move and thus lower maneuverability. The +1 toughness is a help, but not enough for me to sacrifice that much movement.

Neferata said:
Only downside I see in puting an archon on a bike is that he counts as an independent character, and that he cant take as much other wargear (although I've always been able to fit everything I needed on him anyway).

Counting as an IC is a plus point and the main reason I tend to avoid squads except an incubi command as being an IC allows you to hide behind other squads effectively

Neferata said:
Sure, you cant use the 12" assault combat drug option if you put him on a bike, but I personally wouldnt want my archon to break off from his squad and go solo against a squad in an assault.

Typically with a carefully placed assault an archon will kill all within his 2" kill zone, thus wining the combat and letting a squad arrive in the following turn if nneccessary.

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Ostsol

· #10 · Feb 2, 2006

I thought it was already determined that a bike does not confer any particular armour save. . .

Neferata

· #11 · Feb 2, 2006

now that you mention it, i do recall seeing an FAQ that did clarify that (bikes confer no save above and beyond the character's normal armor save).

I realize that it was a misprint in the wargear book when they said that DE bikes count as Eldar Bikes...but if GW hasn't published an FAQ clarifying that, then you have to abide by the rules in the most current publication. So unless they have published an official document denouncing the entry in the wargear book...the DE jetbike is still counted as an eldar jetbike.
It's a sly way around it, but thats how I see it. (if they have clarified the jetbike rule in an FAQ then please let me know).

I gotta admit though, you made some pretty [email protected] good counterpoints karantalsis. I know when I've been beat.

Ostsol

· #12 · Feb 2, 2006

I hope you're not trying to say that Eldar Jetbikes confer a save. You'll note that Warlocks on Jetbikes have a separate statline, yet Farseers do not, despite specific mention of Farseers on bikes in the Warlock entry. That and the lack of an indication of a save bonus in the armoury description of Eldar Jetbikes shows that the bonus to the model's save is not an inherent ability of the bike.

(Admittedly, the rules are kinda wierd, and it would certainly make sense for bikes to provide some sort of better save.)

lorddraahk

Discussion Starter · #13 · Feb 2, 2006

Good morning (in my case anyway) all

First of all, thank you for the recommendations.
Taking them into account, I'll probably stick with my usual combo.

In addition, I can let you know I've always been very keen on WWP's. Even back in the 3th ed.-days. I Know back then the raiderrush was very effective, but not really my style of play.
So in my 1500p lists I always take two portals.

For this new 1250p army, the Archon starts off with my Wych raidersquad (in reserve).

Thanks
cheers

Ebon Hand

· #14 · Feb 2, 2006

It may be interesting to note that the new Bionics rules apply to all armies that use them now, not just Space Marines, according to the Wargear book. While there are definitely some misprint issues with the Wargear book, I think that some things can be used as an update to current rules. Unless they plan to make Marine bionics better, I'm assuming that they plan to use the new Bionics in all of their new codexes.

The Dark Eldar jetbikes becoming Eldar bikes could be a similar change. Their previously unbeatable speed has been given to all bikes, and so it could be a change in the new codex that would restore Dark Eldar bikes to the speediest bikes there are. I would welcome it, seeing as Dark Eldar bikes were no doubt costed to include their Turbo-Boost rule in the points.

As much as I would love this to be true, I think the rulebook still takes precedence on this matter since it lists Dark Eldar bikes as regular Jetbikes in the unit definitions table.

karantalsis

· #15 · Feb 2, 2006 (Edited)

I agree that addidng the 6" boost good, I'd love it, but the wargear book does not change any rules, I'm sure this is written somewhere, though I can't remember were it is intended solely as a compilation and interest piece and changes rules no more than do the black library novels. Again as I can't remember where I was refered to this being written I can only point out that I went to GW HQ to check (Admittedly its my local shop, but....) and I think it was there I was pointed to the piece of writing, it might even be on the online store under the books description come to think of it, not sure though.

Also are you going to make all your marine foes play with termie armour at 3+/5++ if not then clearly you see this book should not be taken as rules updates.

Ebon Hand

· #16 · Feb 3, 2006

Very true Karantalsis. In the end, codexes have to override the wargear book, because its got some pretty bad errors. I still let my IG and Witchhunter opponents play with the new bionics rules though, since they make alot more sense, but I can argue against it and tell them to get their codex rules out. Its a shame that GW can't just hire a proofreader. I know I would apply for the position.

Back to the topic at hand though, I've always been curious why so many players seem to advocate the Animus. I've been an Agoniser user myself, seeing as many of my opponents have T4 as the norm, along with the occasional T5 Necron Lord or worse yet, T6 Hive Tyrant. Is it because of the potential s6?

Neferata

· #17 · Feb 3, 2006 (Edited)

Well, I know that the wargear book has some errors in it, but technically speaking, doesn't the most recent publication always overrule all previous ones? Seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what every GW employee that I've talked to has told me.

Otherwise I suppose we could just say that since a few entries are wrong in the Wargear book that the whole book should just be ignored. Maybe GW actually meant to make a few minor changes (definitely not the terminator armor though...someone oughtta get fired for letting THAT one slip).

Ostsol

· #18 · Feb 3, 2006

Neferata said:
Well, I know that the wargear book has some errors in it, but technically speaking, doesn't the most recent publication always overrule all previous ones? Seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what every GW employee that I've talked to has told me.

Well, it's problematic if the new publications are not announced or otherwise distinct and obvious. Really, what GW should do is release all corrections and clarifications in freely available FAQs or erata documents.

Neferata

· #19 · Feb 3, 2006

Oh yeah, an FAQ/erata most definitely needs to be released for the wargear book

MobiusPrime

· #20 · Feb 10, 2006

I totally disregard the Wargear Book as anything official for rules purposes. I see it as a blatant attempt to make money from 40K enthusiasts who will buy any crap that GW dishes out.

Also, on the point of 'the most recent document overrides previous documents' unsettles me.

The thought that the demonhunters codex (for example) changes something in my IG codex, thus forcing me to buy a codex for an army that I hate, let alone don't even play, just to have one paragraph on a page to stay current on the rules is absurd.

I honestly think that GW should adopt a free downloadable errata or FAQ method to clear up discrepancies.

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