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The idea of a greater daemon seems to be quite a good idea, considering their outrageous stats and monsterous creature ability. But the instability test seems a little unfair, even for something so powerful for so cheap(as far as chaos goes). For those of you who don't know the rule, at the end of each turn, you roll 3D6 and add the numbers together. If the total is greater than a 10(Ld) the daemon suffers 1 wound for every number above 10, no armour saves. Now that means almost half of the time hes going to suffer a few wounds PER TURN. Assuming I understand the instructions properly anyway...

The big question here is IS IT WORTH IT? Assuming a 14+(16+ if GUO) was rolled with the 3D6, he's done in one turn...A roll of 4,4,4 would mean half his wounds..
 

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This test is only used if the deamonhost is killed before you actually role for the Greater Deamon to appear.
 

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I'm not very fond of the Slaneesh Greater Daemon or the Great Unclean One, but Bloodthirster and the Lord of Change are both incredible. The Lord of change is pretty good in close combat due to his high initiative, but his psychic abilities with all those wounds and daemonic flight to back him up is what really does it. Bloodthirster is literally a close combat god. I have had him take out full squads of Flamers and then a 9 man terminator squad! The only disadvantage I can see with him is the initiative 4. I would like to be able to go simultaneously with something like an Eldar Farseer, but I guess Bloodthirster is superior in cc in every other way.
 

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I hate Ultramarines
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I got a Bloodthirster today and thought the same thing as HeXsim, im so glad I now know I don't have to suffer the wrath of the 3d6 leadership test lol. My one problem with the Bloodthirster still, is the small amount of attacks and poor initiative. I guess thats how its always been though so I just gotta live with it lol.
 

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Well, he only has 5 attacks, but consider how good those attacks are and you'll realise why.
 

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Great Unclean One is certainly the most bang for the buck in points term's that is. The Cheapest Greator Deamon with 6 wounds at toughness 6 with a 4+ invulnerable save and a free psychic power. His survivability isn't to be underestimated.
 

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5 attacks is PLENTY, especially when it's 6 on the charge. :yes:

Because, there is such a thing as having too deadly a charge. Like, for example, when the Bloodthirster (I use him frequently, either to kill 1/2 the enemy's team or to draw 3 rounds of firing, either way it's brilliant) charges into a squad and kills them all, he is then probably caught in the open, sitting around naked, just waiting to be shot to ribbons or charged by things that he doesn't want to be tied up with (like conscripts). Instead, what you want is to charge, have 2 guys hang on, and then when he moves something into support on his turn, you slaughter the rest of the squad and consolidate. Rinse and repeat until you're not allowed to play with the Bloodthirster anymore. Also, when you consider that the 'thirster's Weapon Skill is about the equal of Chuck Norris, you're almost always going to be landing a hit.

also, it's expensive, but try putting a Bloodthirster on a bike. And also put ur Daemon Prince on a Bike as well and just have one massive bike rush, turbo boost and show up on his flank with 8 bikes, a DP, and a Bloodthirster of Khorne exactly where he didn't want it :)
 

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Ender of Threads
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Rork said:
Since when was 5 attacks "small"? :O
Well, a Marine Librarian can pump out up to 9 if you equip him right, and I've encountered some other Chaos beasties that can dish out a ton of pain. The Eversor Assassin can produce a whopping 10 attacks if you're lucky. I'm sure the 'nids can produce similar results from some of their nastier critters, too.

Insanely powerful close combat gods aside though, I've got to agree - 5 attacks is nothing to sneeze at, especially backed up by the kind of power that a Bloodthirster can produce. Those 5 attacks can potentially rip most maxed squads cleanly in half, at which point they'll be in real danger of running.
 

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Well ive got a nurlge, tzeentch and khorne marine army, and do i love my greater daemons. The GUO have done wonders as a distraction. I sometimes makes his points back but mainly used as a distraction where your opponents unload all their shooting at the huge disgusting blob - and see it lose only 1-2 wounds. get him winds of chaos and he is devastating in long range. Hes can also be used to take down elites and troops, but dont bother about HQ, some armies have very beefy HQ and he can be taken down that way.

The LOC is used as a tank hunter and to thin out you opponents squads. Its only effective when he uses magic at a distance, hes only ok in cc, try to never get him in cc (pretty easy since he can fly). Bolt of change, doombolt is always good.

Bloodthirster - pretty simple, get him into cc with juicy targets (like HQ and elites, dont waste your time with troops - let the berserkers deal with those :sleep: )
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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The LOC is actually pretty good in combat, sure he has "low" strength(6) and only a few attacks but he has high WS and high I...which is arguably the most important CC stat.

GUO's are actually pretty good for combat too, they are cheap, and though they don't dish out as much as most GD's they can sit in combat for longer so their actually pretty good.

KOS's have access to the best minor psychic table and have Warp Scream, which makes them actually really effective for their points.
 

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In my opinion, the Keeper of Secrets is probably the best buy for your points.

Compare him to the Bloodthirster. The Khornate daemon costs 45 extra points - that's three marines for your CSM squads. What does those 45 points buy you?

An additional two points of Weapon Skill on top of an already high WS to begin with. You already hit on 3's versus practically every model in the game - just how high do you really need that WS? Worried about being hit back? Why? With proper positioning you should be able to clear out everything in base contact with your model in five attacks.

One extra point of strength. How many toughness six models do you face on a regular basis? So what is the difference between wounding on a 2+ and a 2+? You already have an amazing penetration value against vehicles with the MC rules, so the one extra strength point is superflous. The only reason I can see having it is the instant kill factor on toughness four models. How often does that really come up?

Wings. With proper summoning tactics (Infiltration, anyone?) you shouldn't have any need for that extra movement anyways. It's nice to have, granted - but 45 points nice?

And lastly, a slightly better armour save that is usually negated anyways. Yay.

So what does the KoS have over the Bloodthirster? To begin with, it has psychic powers. More specifically it can have Winds of Chaos, or Gift of Chaos if you feel lucky with your sniping abilities. Also, it has the uncanny ability to actually strike before most models, and if you are able to take out the familiar with a ranged psychic power before hand, can strike at the same time as a Force weapon wielding Librarian.

The lesson here? Just because it costs the most points doesn't mean it's the strongest thing in the Codex.

Now, with that out of the way, let's answer your question - "Is it worth it?"

That's up to you. The general consesus is that Greater Daemons don't suck, so if you can afford one and think it'll match your army theme, then give it a try.

Just a few more quick things -

Always, always, ALWAYS buy Daemonic Chains for your daemonhost. It should be criminal to not take them.

The Great Unclean One can do an amazing job at tying up expensive units. I've also had great success by keeping him out of Close Combat and using him as a ranged fire sponge.
 

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The way you describe it 45pts extra for the Bloodthirster is a deal. Put it the other way for the extra 45 points the Bloodthirster can fly and redeploy in different areas o the battle very quickly will nearly always be hitting on a 3+ wounding 2+ and inaddition doesn't be get a 2+ armour save (can't remember don't have my Choas Codez on me).

Esssentially the 45pts are buying you a garentee that you will be the best fighter on the board (or very nearly the best). And in a game where by cutting out the variables you have more chance of winning that has to be worth three marines.
 

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EWOP
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I played in a mini-tourney with friends in early Jan using World Eater marines, some armour and a Bloodthirster. Every one of my second turns of all four first-round games saw the BT jump out on a roll of a six (trying to hold him back until his host was in combat), and by the end of my third turn of all four games I had failed all his instability rolls (rolling 5, 5 & 6 every time...) and lost a 205 point gamewinner due to stupid dice rolling for no purpose whatsoever.

With 24 hours of sitting around waiting to go, I thought up a better Daemon Lord worth the same points who can't die by instability and has higher S, I and A, even though his saves aren't as good (although with basic I4, will your 3+/4+ BT saves do you any good against death-by-marine-vets worth a tenth of his points?).

I'm currently tweaking all my Greater Daemons to Lord/Daemonic Stature level in each of my Legions. They're cheaper in points and just as hard, especially if they still have Daemonic Flight. Greater Daemons in FB? Yes. In a fast moving game like 40k? No thanks, not until the Chaos Codex is re-released anyway.
 

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adamwelton said:
Every one of my second turns of all four first-round games saw the BT jump out on a roll of a six (trying to hold him back until his host was in combat), and by the end of my third turn of all four games I had failed all his instability rolls (rolling 5, 5 & 6 every time...) and lost a 205 point gamewinner due to stupid dice rolling for no purpose whatsoever.
Error said:
This test is only used if the deamonhost is killed before you actually role for the Greater Deamon to appear.
But with the chance of rolling 6's in an inopportune momment...
Caluin said:
Always, always, ALWAYS buy Daemonic Chains for your daemonhost. It should be criminal to not take them.
With this you will get a reroll, but as you say each to thier own if they like to use Greater Deamons or not.
 

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Chains are a bit expensive (20pts) and can be replaced by a single Berzerker or more attacks for a Champ, but I see what you mean. I'll stick with my Lord -of-Lunacy until something nasty happens to it. I haven't faced Eldar for a while, and not with Greater Daemons. Someting to look out for, certainly.
 

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Berny Mac said:
The way you describe it 45pts extra for the Bloodthirster is a deal. Put it the other way for the extra 45 points the Bloodthirster can fly and redeploy in different areas o the battle very quickly will nearly always be hitting on a 3+ wounding 2+ and inaddition doesn't be get a 2+ armour save (can't remember don't have my Choas Codez on me).
Actually, the way I described it was the 45 points was mostly a waste of points. The Keeper of Secrets already hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+ against most models in the game. So no advantage to the Bloodthirster. And while he does recieve the 3+ armour save, most high strength weapon (Melta guns, Missile Launchers, Plasma) ignore that anyways, so you're still using the basic Invulnerable save that all Greater Daemons have.

Berny Mac said:
Esssentially the 45pts are buying you a garentee that you will be the best fighter on the board (or very nearly the best). And in a game where by cutting out the variables you have more chance of winning that has to be worth three marines.
Maybe, but is it worth Daemonic Mutation on all four of your Powerfisted Champions? How about four special weapons to divide amongst your CSM squads? My point is that while the Bloodthirster is undoubtedly good, so is the Keeper of Secrets, but the KoS is much cheaper.
 

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Caluin said:
The only reason I can see having it is the instant kill factor on toughness four models. How often does that really come up?
As often as you want it to. With the ability to be a marine HQ killer, you may as well take the opportunity if you can. If you can get the jump on a chaplain or commander, you can get rid of the rites of battle/litanies of hate before they have a chance to do much good.

And while infiltration gets you down the enemy's throat, having wings is more useful in the long term if combined with the infiltration (particularly if you find your infiltrators hamstrung by kill zones). The BT remains useful if the enemy tries to run away.

Oh, and there's the small point that the BT wounds wraithlords on 4's :yes:. You don't want to struggle too long with something that wounds you on 2's (even if it hits you on 5's) ;) .
 
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