Yes, if Necrons fail to fall back and not passed the sweeping advance test every model in that unit is removed from play without any WBB role.
Are necrons destroyed by sweeping assaut?
I recently played in a club tournament, whereby i previously inquired as to the standing of sweeping assaults where necrons lose the combat (lets b honest here, at I2 i wasn't gunna win against 15 genestealers!)
The rulebook says there are exceptions where the loser of a combat fails to break away safely and dies, but fails to mention who this applies to. The necron codex says (not sure if i can quote here but...) "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop... etc.
what does every1 else think (obviously im biased) but some unbiased opinions would be appreciated.
thanks guys,
Eclipse
The rulebook says there are exceptions where the loser of a combat fails to break away safely and dies, but fails to mention who this applies to. The necron codex says (not sure if i can quote here but...) "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop... etc.
what does every1 else think (obviously im biased) but some unbiased opinions would be appreciated.
thanks guys,
Eclipse
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so where do these exceptions to failing a sweeping assault and not getting destroyed apply to then? and it does say "otherwise removed as a casualty are not destroyed" which is what failing a sweeping assault would consequently do.
Yes, to above but there's a DETAIL you're missing.
Example: Squad of 10 warriors
> Squad of 10 warriors has 6 warriors DIE and qualify for WBB, they are laid on their sides as normal.
> Test for fall back and fails, yet is caught by sweeping advance. ONLY the 4 models falling BACK are destroyed by the sweeping advance.
> If you have another squad within 6" or a tomb spyder within 12" (qualifying normal WBB ) then those 6 that laid down will get a WBB and join the nearest squad (even if that squad is across the table).
So yes we die VERY badly to sweeping advances, but just prey they actually go DOWN first!
Example: Squad of 10 warriors
> Squad of 10 warriors has 6 warriors DIE and qualify for WBB, they are laid on their sides as normal.
> Test for fall back and fails, yet is caught by sweeping advance. ONLY the 4 models falling BACK are destroyed by the sweeping advance.
> If you have another squad within 6" or a tomb spyder within 12" (qualifying normal WBB ) then those 6 that laid down will get a WBB and join the nearest squad (even if that squad is across the table).
So yes we die VERY badly to sweeping advances, but just prey they actually go DOWN first!
When you loose a close combat you roll a leadership test with the appropriate modifiers if you fail that you start falling back. You and your opponent rolling an initiative test if you fail that you get caught in a sweeping advance.so where do these exceptions to failing a sweeping assault and not getting destroyed apply to then? and it does say "otherwise removed as a casualty are not destroyed" which is what failing a sweeping assault would consequently do.
Read the rulebook's section on this its pretty well answered in there.
Good luck.
Thanks Guys! :sinister: much appreciated.
There are two occasions where WBB does not apply: being run down by a sweeping advance move is one (good point about the already-downed models though). Being run down by a Tank performing a Tank Shock is the other if the Necron decides to do his Death or Glory thing.
E.
E.
so in the sweeping advance what is the rule that overrides the we'll be back rule?There are two occasions where WBB does not apply: being run down by a sweeping advance move is one (good point about the already-downed models though). Being run down by a Tank performing a Tank Shock is the other if the Necron decides to do his Death or Glory thing.
E.
the unit is not rescued the unit is utterly annihilated...and then weeeeeeeee're baaaaaaaaaaaack.
the rule book says to defer to the codex, the codex says nope we'll be back.
Ok I changed my mind here, I think you MIGHT get a WBB in the case of a sweeping advance!
Rulebook: Sweeping advance Page 40, first bullet point, last sentence.
Codex: Page 13, WBB rule "Any necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds (this doesn't apply) or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains..." The only thing that negates WBB is no save CC weaponry and double toughness weapons. Hence I think (vague as it is) the codex could override this one, my buddy thought it might be a valid case (however cheap it is).
Basically since the codex directly states anything removed as a casualty will get a WBB, not JUST wounds causing it!
For the record, I wish sweeping advances weren't so devastating right now, but that's how I read the rules...I wish the FAQ addressed this, or GW could give direct answers!
Rulebook: Sweeping advance Page 40, first bullet point, last sentence.
Codex: Page 13, WBB rule "Any necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds (this doesn't apply) or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains..." The only thing that negates WBB is no save CC weaponry and double toughness weapons. Hence I think (vague as it is) the codex could override this one, my buddy thought it might be a valid case (however cheap it is).
Basically since the codex directly states anything removed as a casualty will get a WBB, not JUST wounds causing it!
For the record, I wish sweeping advances weren't so devastating right now, but that's how I read the rules...I wish the FAQ addressed this, or GW could give direct answers!
I don't see it as a grey area since it states in the situations, although being a 3rd edition book they do get the issues kinda mixed up.
they'll clarify it in the new codex, or keep the same wording personally I hope they keep the same wording and bring back the lord counting as every type. for wbb rolls.
they'll clarify it in the new codex, or keep the same wording personally I hope they keep the same wording and bring back the lord counting as every type. for wbb rolls.
they should make it a different statistic than initiative.For the record, I wish sweeping advances weren't so devastating right now, but that's how I read the rules...I wish the FAQ addressed this, or GW could give direct answers!
they should make it a different statistic than initiative.
No kidding! We rarely fell back before, hence tough nearly fearless models, now we fall back all the time and with our initiative rarely break off freely!
The new sweeping advance rules are fine over all, but really hurt necrons' design. Thank god our new codex is next year supposedly...
the previous incarnation of the necrons ignored negative modifiers for the morale checks, I never understood why they got rid of that.The new sweeping advance rules are fine over all, but really hurt necrons' design. Thank god our new codex is next year supposedly...
It is specified in the 4th Edition rulebook that Necrons do not get a WBB roll when they are caught by a Sweeping Advance.
"No Invulnerable Save or other special rule (such as the Necrons' We'll Be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."
In 5th Ed, this is rendered as follows:
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." P.40 BRB last sentence of first bullet point.
Seems pretty definite that the WBB roll does not happen if the Necrons are caught by a Sweeping Advance.
As far as surviving a failed Death or Glory attempt, both editions of the rules state that there is NO way whatsoever that the model can save itself, either through Invulnerable Saves, Wounds, Armour or any other "cunning" (4th Ed word) or "clever" (5th Ed word) way of staying alive. This was also clearly stated in a cut-and-paste rehash of the "We'll Be Back" rules which was provided in a White Dwarf some years ago:
"Necrons destroyed after due to a failed Death or Glory attack may not be repaired by any means" (odd wording copied directly from article)
Therefore no WBB here either.
The Necrons which were downed before the failed Morale Check are not destroyed by being caught in the Sweeping Advance, since they are considered as mere battlefield debris. Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on. So these models will just lie there until they get to make their WBB roll next turn, whereupon those who pass will join the nearest unit of the same type. The rest of the unit which failed its Morale Check and were Sweeping Advanced will be dead.
E.
"No Invulnerable Save or other special rule (such as the Necrons' We'll Be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."
In 5th Ed, this is rendered as follows:
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." P.40 BRB last sentence of first bullet point.
Seems pretty definite that the WBB roll does not happen if the Necrons are caught by a Sweeping Advance.
As far as surviving a failed Death or Glory attempt, both editions of the rules state that there is NO way whatsoever that the model can save itself, either through Invulnerable Saves, Wounds, Armour or any other "cunning" (4th Ed word) or "clever" (5th Ed word) way of staying alive. This was also clearly stated in a cut-and-paste rehash of the "We'll Be Back" rules which was provided in a White Dwarf some years ago:
"Necrons destroyed after due to a failed Death or Glory attack may not be repaired by any means" (odd wording copied directly from article)
Therefore no WBB here either.
The Necrons which were downed before the failed Morale Check are not destroyed by being caught in the Sweeping Advance, since they are considered as mere battlefield debris. Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on. So these models will just lie there until they get to make their WBB roll next turn, whereupon those who pass will join the nearest unit of the same type. The rest of the unit which failed its Morale Check and were Sweeping Advanced will be dead.
E.
that would apply if we were playing 4th edition...which we are not.It is specified in the 4th Edition rulebook that Necrons do not get a WBB roll when they are caught by a Sweeping Advance.
the current edition makes no specification, and the faq does not state otherwise, so in this case they would receive wbb rolls
I read it as swept = dead.
It makes the playing faster and less argumentative to run it that way.
Sure I don't play super competitive so I can see why people want to say we'll be back for down models after a sweep. I just choose to take the main rulebook and take swept as it says.
Eventually this will be clarified/revmoved an then it won't be a concern.
So I guess do as you think is right.
I'm just looking to the future where we'll be back is not allowed when swept (i'm guessing that will happen) That way it isn't a drastic change for me.
It makes the playing faster and less argumentative to run it that way.
Sure I don't play super competitive so I can see why people want to say we'll be back for down models after a sweep. I just choose to take the main rulebook and take swept as it says.
Eventually this will be clarified/revmoved an then it won't be a concern.
So I guess do as you think is right.
I'm just looking to the future where we'll be back is not allowed when swept (i'm guessing that will happen) That way it isn't a drastic change for me.
that would apply if we were playing 4th edition...which we are not.
the current edition makes no specification, and the faq does not state otherwise, so in this case they would receive wbb rolls
Maybe you missed him clarifying the fact that it's in 5th so here you are. Same post simply the next paragraph.eiglepulper said:In 5th Ed, this is rendered as follows:
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." P.40 BRB last sentence of first bullet point.
I already addressed that in a previous post.Maybe you missed him clarifying the fact that it's in 5th so here you are. Same post simply the next paragraph.
I believe the 5th Ed part stated by eiglepulper and quoted by grantneodude is pretty clear, that unless a rule states specifically "This can overide casualties from a sweeping advance" then the models are infact dead. Previous incarnations of the "and they shall know no fear" rule had this such line or some similar wording, as the space marines restart the combat, I do believe this has changed since my last experience with marines (3rd Ed) and that the new marines will be able to just choose when to fail Ld tests, but it has existed in the past.
aside from clinging to past editions which have no place in the current rule set you are overlooking that yes, while the models are dead, they are irrevicobly dead. no save no nothing poof dead. blah blah blah...I believe the 5th Ed part stated by eiglepulper and quoted by grantneodude is pretty clear, that unless a rule states specifically "This can overide casualties from a sweeping advance" then the models are infact dead. Previous incarnations of the "and they shall know no fear" rule had this such line or some similar wording, as the space marines restart the combat, I do believe this has changed since my last experience with marines (3rd Ed) and that the new marines will be able to just choose when to fail Ld tests, but it has existed in the past.
We'll be back returns them from being dead, its not an additional save, they are casualties until they are no longer casualties. it is outside the normal sequence of events.
Exactly, plus the CODEX specifically states anything that would remove them as casualties REMAIN on the table. Especially since sweeping advance is not double toughness or no save CC weapon. And the rule book is specific that the CODEX overrides the rulebook.aside from clinging to past editions which have no place in the current rule set you are overlooking that yes, while the models are dead, they are irrevicobly dead. no save no nothing poof dead. blah blah blah...
We'll be back returns them from being dead, its not an additional save, they are casualties until they are no longer casualties. it is outside the normal sequence of events.
However my buddy made a good point, the sweeping advance isn't really 'casualties' as the codex states...so does that make a difference...I just wish GW would address it in the FAQ.
Although I think the best post is above, I play casually so I don't really care. I just remove them currently, but love this discussion
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