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72K views 358 replies 61 participants last post by  Luyp 
two questions for Mr Nagash....and everyone else really

First is a more general question. How does TK's compare to other armies these days?
I'm pretty much inclined to agree with Nagash here (and maybe even go a little farther).

Perhaps more than any other army, the success of a TK army is directly related to the competence and skill of its general. In the hands of a gifted general the TKs are all but unbeatable (witness the recent NZ nationals where TKs won with a perfect 100% win/loss record), but an inexperienced player will really struggle to win bigtime.

There are a few reasons for this.

TK do not enjoy any significant advantages in any phase of the game, but we are fairly good in all of them. Effectively, this means that not only do we need to play well in every phase of the game in order to give a good account of ourselves overall, but we can also (to a certain extent) effectively tailor the way we play dependant on the specificic opponent we face at the time.

For example, if playing VC then we can exploit the shooting element to gain an edge, but against a 'shooty' foe we can look to emphasise a CR advantage and win in that way. This is precisely why TK are so effective and so damn hard to get to grips with in the first place. Note also that TK are becoming an increasingly rare sight in some circles and this also helps us because so many opponents are unfamiliar with us and what we are capable of (suits me!).

Depending on our set up (list), Beastmen are certainly not our most challenging foe. Whilst the ambushers can give us a few problems if using an ostensibly static list (some might consider this karma for all the ICFB woes we dish out -LOL), a well designed list can usually cope without significant problems.
 
got a question, wondering how everyone else is playing it.

With that recent FAQ about MR not having an effect on indirect spells, I am going to assume that the TQ FAQ on the casket trumps this rule however.

It is very satisfying when the casket goes off, id really like to start taking it again.
Generally where there is any contradiction the more recent FAQs trump older ones (like the TK FAQ specifically), though as a TK player I suppose I would say that wouldn't I? ;) GW are typically either tight lipped about it (since they don't endorse the FAQs as a policy), or -even worse- if you do manage to press them for a clarification then two different people at GW will often give two different answers. :disapointed:

I'm personally inclined to think MR doesn't affect the casket but I would suggest you keep a copy of the new FAQ handy if you're playing in a tourney. If anyone still wanted to argue the point then I would just let it go. It's not a huge deal in any event and the casket is well worth taking these days regardless.

Whatever way you go with this, I would still recommend you dust of the casket and give it a go again.

SOOOUUULS! :ghost::ghost::ghost:
 
I was wondering what your thoughts on the Blade of Setep is.
I'm pretty much inclined to agree with Nagashs' sentiments on the BoS, we actually spoke about it a while ago now (though if memory serves that may of been via PM so you might not have seen it). The Blade of Setep is a really cool weapon, probably one that deserves to see more play than it actually does. The reason it usually doesn't is no so much because of any shortcomings on the part of the BoS, but rather that it faces such tough competition for selection against the likes of DoE and FoS.

Strangely enough, that is also the reason why some of the other items mentioned (Blue Khepra, Golden Ankhara etc) also see little play. Although those last two are perhaps a little over costed, the main problem with most of these items is that they are either trumped by better items that demand priority, or they are just too situational for inclusion in an 'all comers' list.

Everything in WHFB comes at a cost. Quite aside from the obvious points expenditure there is always the very real cost of not being able to take something else in its place or with the points available. This is sometimes difficult to agree upon because each of us has to base the decision on our own uniqe circumstances and -more often than not- by the specific opponents we face.

If, for example, you always seem to find yourself playing against Ogres then Enkils Kanopi is definately an auto include, but for most of us it is probably too situational and the points are usually better spent elsewhere. These are often things you will need to decide based on your own experiences.

On a last note, although the Blue Khepra is normally not good (because aside from the cost(s) your opponent will just fling his magic at something else), it could be spectacular in very low points games where you only have maybe a single block and perhaps a scorpion or two, because your opponent will have no other choice but to try and wade through your MR. ;) It would also work well on a deathstar if you were really inclined to go that route.
 
Icon of the Sacred Eye is not a favourite to me. The effect is good if you have such a weapon as FoS, BoS, SoA and CaFoR. If none of these weapons are fielded in the Unit, I would skip this Icon.
Although Nagash and I generally agree on most things, I have to say I couldn't disagree more on this one, so perhaps another perspective might be of value?

The Icon of the sacred eye is by far the single best standard we can put on a chariot unit in my experience, regardless of any other magic weapons wielded in the unit. The (vaguely cheesy) ability to trigger the banner repeatedly in a single turn makes all those otherwise mediocre attacks into a devastating thing of beauty. It's actually quite surprising how much more effective the icon makes a chariot unit.

I wont bother to bore everyone with the math-hammer, but it's important to remember how chariots work IMHO. Unlike almost everything else in the TK arsenal, chariots win by causing casualties and breaking an opponent on the charge. This is absoloutely critical to their success and all your efforts should be geared towards this end or -sooner or later- you will doom the unit to a lingering death in a protracted combat.

Having tried all the standards at some time or another I can honestly say I would never choose anything over the IotSE anymore. For me, it's just one of those things that is too good not to take if you're placing a standard on your chariots.

That's my humble opinion anyhoo.
 
WOC would certainly fit in well with how you want to play and they are one of the few armies that would mesh with TK in terms of fluff (if that's even a factor). The models are really cool as well IMHO.

As Nagash mentioned, High elves would be more effective tactically (but would probably be unthinkable in terms of fluff).
 
As per usual, our esteemed high priest offers stellar advice. :)

Yet i do still see them in lists and tournaments. What on earth are they thinking!?
As Nagash pointed out -heavy horse are basically useless. There are only three reasons why heavy horse might appear in a tourney list IMHO:

1). The list in question is crap (a little harsh but invariably true TBH),
2). The player doesn't have enough models to fill up the points quota without them (unfortunate but fair enough),
3). The player is looking to score a few extra points in the army composition category by fielding a sub par unit (dubious IMHO).

That's pretty much the top and bottom of it as far as HH go. As a confirmed fan of light horse myself though, I think there are a couple more uses that deserve noting beyond those already mentioned by Nagash (and as one of those that wouldn't consider a tourney list complete without them, perhaps such an opinion may provide some insight even if you ultimately find the reasoning flawed).

So my question is:
what makes these boyz so good that theyre not so bad as they seem?

- do you use them and what roles do you think they're good for?
Okey dokey then, lets start with the uses Nagash already mentioned:

As bunker for a priest (often wielding SoRav):
This is one of the most common uses of SLH and you will see it time and again in many lists since it provides both mobility for the liche (effectively extending the range of his incantations and SoRav) and to gain the all important Look out sir! roll that will help keep him in one piece.

You need to be a bit careful with this one because of course the SLH will not stand up to a sustained battering from missile fire and magic. This actually tends to be much less of a problem in practice than it does on paper though due to a couple of factors:

1). An adept general will perhaps be a bit more cagey with how these are deployed in the critical early turns. Often they are deployed behind either interposing terrain or, more commonly, behind another unit that can take the hit. Since this shielding unit will often be the target of the attendant liches' incantations anyway, this actually works out rather well.

For example: The SLH/Liche will often be deployed behind a unit of chariots on a flank. This not only shields the Lt Cav but keeps the liche in range to support the chariots if they have to go roving ahead to deal with a threat or exploit an opportunity. Provided you don't make a boo boo with your positioning, you can actually make it very hard for your opponent to get a shot at them between the large frontage of your chariots and the impassable table edge. Because they're also classed as fast cav you can generally still get your own missile fire (& SoRav) off against a non missile unit -moreover you can still fire behind you at any fast (usually flying) units your opponent uses to breach your lines. SoRav can be particularly effective here since these units typically only have a toughness of 3.

2). As a general principle, more experienced generals tend to be a lot more agressive in victimising the ranged units that are the bane of SLH as a matter of course. This is something that is naturally very hard to quantify and prove in terms of pure math hammer etc, but (in my experience at least) you will find it born out time and again on the 'top tables' in any given tourney.

Fortunately this is something we TK are naturally very good at. Between our two ICFB units and (even better) our carrion, it's easy for us to shut down any opposing missile units that cannot easily be otherwise avoided. At this point (usually turn two-ish) you can actually afford to be a little bit more cavalier about their placement, though you will still need to keep an eye on enemy wizards of course.

Redirecting enemy units.
This is perhaps the best use of Light cav, and at only 70pts a pop it's one they are ideally suited for. They are invaluable for tying up BFMs (like dinosaurs and war hydras etc) since each unit of Lt Cav will typically buy you two more turns to deal with the big nasty in question -and this in turn translates to 2 extra turns of missile fire, magic and -critically- up to 4 extra shots with an SSC. Since the cav die so quickly in toe to toe fighting (and yes, that's actually a good thing here), it means your target unit will be unengaged and hence an eligible SSC target when your shooting & magic phases roll around again.

Have you ever been in one of those positions where you think to yourself "If I can just kill *that* I'm probably gonna be alright... but if I don't then I'm probably gonna lose..." ??? Well if you use your light cav to buy yourself that extra turn or two then statistically you are all but guaranteed to get at least one more hit with the SSC. Almost all tournament armies can be expected to field one or more big monsters that require the attention of the SSC, so by using the synergy offered by the light cav here we can greatly shift the odds in our favour.

Although I've made much of the increased synergy afforded to the SSC, the light horse are also very effective against problematic foot units. If you look for opportunities to redirect overrunning units into difficult ground then you can effectively knock an irritating unit (like phoenix guard etc) out of the game. Definately 70pts well spent IMHO.

Needless to say, every time your opponent fails a fear check in a situation like this like this then you will have gained yet another turn and stalled their attack even longer...

Winning the charge.
This is a big one. Many units (like our chariots) only win consistently when they are the ones who are on the charge. By carefully positioning a disposable unit of light cav at an angle between two such opposing units you can all but guarantee to be the one who is doing the charging
(you see, it really is better to give than to receive. ;))

This use is essentially a gambit: You effectively trade the 70 points worth of light cav for the cost of the opposing cold ones/dragon princes etc. Should your opponent decline to charge then you win again because you have negated their hammer unit and can still use the cav for missile duty etc. :)

If you're not sure how to do this then let me know bud and I'll try to find you a few pics that will demonstrate it properly. It will make a huge difference to your win/loss record.

Cavalry as Psuedo-Carrion.
Like many of us I love carrion. You will probably have seen some of the '3 or 5?' carrion dabates yourself and accepted some of the 'additional' reasons why many people use five. Aside from the more obvious stuff like march blocking, I'm particularly thinking of things like crossfire and grabbing table quarters. This is all very true, but consider that the light cav can also be relied upon to perform almost all of these 'additional' duties assigned to carrion in a pinch as well.

Missile fire support.
This one is (much) more hotly debated. I'm really not a huge fan of using bowmen in 10 man units, and though many people are, even those that do will generally concede that they die in droves when confronted in meelee. Whilst this is also true of the cavalry, at least here you generally have the mobility to avoid having them engaged in the first place -and if your opponent is daft enough to make a concerted effort to get them then you can always sucker them in for the gambit. ;)

Assuming you don't sacrifice them yourself in the mean time of course, any surviving light cav will generally dish out more or less the same number of bowshots over the course of a game, but you will enjoy a lot more flexibility from them IMHO.

Flank support.
This is rarely worth it TBH because the cav will usually give away more CR to your opponent than they can generate/negate, still it does happen from time to time and can make a big difference when it does come up. The very fact that you have the option to do this in the first place is often more than enough to cause your opponent to hesitate and stall an opposing unit.

Nagash said:
They are so under-rated.
This is so, so true... even by us TK players. I think the main reason for this is that it can be quite tricky to learn all the sneaky stuff you can pull off with them whilst learning how to keep them alive long enough to do it. I suppose it's a bit like learning to keep your heiro alive, at first you will make mistakes and your lich will get nuked -you live and learn. Unlike the obligatory heiro though, many people will discard the lt cav after a few such 'nukings' and perhaps not persevere with them long enough to discover all the benefits.

The best thing about Light cav IMHO is their incredible flexibility. By themselves they are -admittedly- a bit pants (to say the least), but that's not really the point. Their real value comes in the synergy they provide in combination with our other units like chariots and the SSC. Since these two units are often the main damage dealers in any TK army, the ability to enhance their effectiveness so sharply for such a small points investment is usually well worth it IMHO.

I hope that helps Digger. At the very least it should throw up a couple of uses you might not have considered. :)
 
Well, I bet there's nothing more to know about the SLHs now, unless it's a real tactica someone wants :sinister:
*Chuckles*

Funnily enough I've been thinking about doing exactly that recently. Some of the stuff we have in the tactica section is either woefully out of date or (in many cases) completely absent. I don't think we've had any new tacticas posted for at least a couple of years now.

In any event it's nice to re-evaluate some of the stuff we take forgranted and maybe spark some fresh debate. :)
 
Here you go cthulu fred, this should help you cut those dwarfs down to size:

Tomb Kings of Khemri Forum -> Down Sizing The Dwarfs

Although that thread was started back in 2005 the match up hasn't really changed all that much to be honest, still the best info is towards the end and culminates in an A to Z of beating dwarfs with TK. Since this was written by a TK player that has stunties as his principal army, you can be assured the info to be found therin is all golden. :)

If you are equipping your HLP with the cloak then you should have little trouble positioning him so as to deny your opponent any shots at him (I usually find supporting with incantations from behind my own blocks is by far the best place).

You're probably much better off letting your opponent go first in this match up.

Twin SSCs for the win. 'Nuff said. ;)
 
Yep, kicks buttocks and then plays them like the bongos. ;)

Hope it cleared something up! Vallah, if this was not what you tried to say (I may have misunderstood it too - who knows?)...
Nope, I think you have it spot on mate (and the pictures were certainly more than adequate to get the point accross).

The key thing to remember when you are learning to do this is to get the angles right (as per picture 2) so you can capitalise on your opponents movement whatever choice they make. It's actually pretty easy to get the hang of it with just a little practice.

And that I think shows why the light cav are so valuable to us. Many people underestimate them because they die so quickly in meelee, but swapping a 70point unit for your opponents 'scary cavalry' (or whatever) is a winner in my book. :)
 
Try being a bit sneaky with your deployments bud. If you watch where he deploys carefully you can often place your units so that they are either out of LOS or (more often) out of range. This is really nice against dwarfs because they move at such a glacial place -so anything he has that can't hit you is likely to stay that way for quite some time. ;)

As Phoenix noted there are two ways to even the score in terms of magic: Reduce his (scorpions are the weapon of choice here), and bring more of your own magic to the table. The casket is surprisingly good against stunties because many dwarf plyers will assume they can pretty much ignore it. They cant. Still, you would be surprised how many need to learn this the hard way. ;)

I would agree that this is a good option, as long as your opponent tends to use miners. They'll often easily just rush through the casket :p
I assume you meant if your opponent tends not to use miners here, right Nagash?

There is an esy soloution to this though: Simply place a unit over the top of his marker so that they are automatically engaged as soon as they appear. This will protect the casket and effectively nullify his dudes (this works really well against any ICFB type units actually -even ours). If the 'holding unit' happens to be the one that has BotUL on it then so much the better as this will also add to your magic phase by getting the banner in use nice and early.

why do people say chariots work well against dwarfs? only have impacts at S4 =\ you'd sooner kill a dwarf with a beermug, So it means youd have to multi charge anything to take it out. on the other hand.. the pros say the same: lots of chariots
Essentially the chariots work on the same principle as our archers, namely that by spamming lots of low strength hits some will always get through to hurt the enemy. This is where the Icon of the sacred eye comes into its own. Add in a prince with FoS -ideally to add overkill points- and it's all good. :)

I would let your opponent go first in this match up. During the first 5 turns you should be raining down as much missile fire and SSC shots as is humanly possible. Remember: you're not trying to kill off entire blocks here, just to remove a rank or two and reduce his staic CR enough for your hammer units to be able to break them in combat later on and get them running away.

And that brings us nicely onto to my last point: Let your opponent go first. Unless you can isolate a unit of dwarfs out on their own (unlikely aggainst a half decent dwarf general), leave most of your meelee action until turn 6 so that your opponent can't respond by destroying any of your (usually chariot) units that fail to break their targets on the charge. Since it's the last turn, anything you do break will count as obliterated when the scores are counted up... and since you've spent the last 5 turns reducing his CR this is much more likely. ;)

Hope those help guys. :)

PS. The Mirage banner is probably a no brainer for you here too.
 
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