[Brymm]

I was wondering if anyone has used Bikes with Icons as a means to summon daemons in far-off places now that the daemons are generic and use deep strike rules. I have been tempted to try this but haven't really had a chance yet.
Also, has anyone tried a daemon heavy army? Any luck?
Thanks!

 

[Dei]

For 2pts you get a Chaos Marine, honestly they're not worth it. Their pros don't outweigh their cons if you ask me. Summoning a Greater Daemon from the sarge might work better though.

Overall the work and overall cost for the delivery method is not worth it, which is a real shame since the models are nice.

 

[Brymm]

Would a greater daemon really be better?
- can't capture objectives
- they kill your expensive biker champion

The lesser daemons:
- can be tailored to points availible easier
-doesn't kill the champion
- can capture objectives

I see what you mean about the points for a CSM instead. But, the daemons fight like a CSM in cc, cost a little less (actually significantly less because you don't buy upgrades), deep strike without scattering (limited near a icon though) and tend to deal with PFs and PWs better.
I just can picture them doing really well being summoned by a Plague squad in a rhino and charging after they get rapid fired. Or better yet, having the bikes drive by flamer or melta some stuff while the daemons they summoned charge a heavy weapons squad or something.
Plus the new bloodletters look sweet!

 

[Rabbit]

But, the daemons fight like a CSM in cc, cost a little less (actually significantly less because you don't buy upgrades)

Here is one of the hidden advantages to Lesser Daemons. Most people compare their cost to the base expense of a CSM, which, as you said, isn't exactly accurate. I mean, nobody in their right mind takes CSMs without upgrades. Once you consider that a ten man CSM squad with dual specials, a fisting champion, and a rhino costs 255-265 points, then the comparison actually looks more favorable for Lesser Daemons. For that cost, you can purchase 19 of the little guys. Not a bad deal at all.

Greater Daemons: He's a master of close combat, no doubt. A skilled Chaos player shouldn't have to worry about summoning him prematurely, so long as he/she can get a champion into enemy territory. With rhinos, bikes, chosen, raptors, etc, that's not too hard to do.

For the price, it's most cost-effective to bring your Greater Daemon onto the board via a Chosen champion. Bikes are expensive, which is why I tend to avoid them for the purposes of a host. Although, you could always take a min/max bike squad with dual meltas and a champion without upgrades, which would allow the bikers to continue killing tanks at range, while their champion transcends the physical plane for the mutations of a Greater Daemon.

 

[Brymm]

great advice

Wonderful advice Rabbit.

What about doing the min/max bike squad and putting the icon on a melta bike... then summoning both lesser daemons AND a greater daemon? Seems like the suprise factor could be there after the lesser daemons hit and the bikes keep going, won't they be suprised to see the big one next turn. The bikes would be the gift that keeps on giving!
Do the bikes tend to do better as tank hunters with the melta set up or as troop hunters with flamers?
Lastly, small squads of beasties to help make sure you get a squad the turn you need em? Or a larger squad for a bigger UMPF?

 

[Intrepid]

What about doing the min/max bike squad and putting the icon on a melta bike... then summoning both lesser daemons AND a greater daemon?

Assuming you intend to bring a 6-bike unit, that's only four ablative wounds on a high-threat unit that will be far away from friendlies. Either the bike squad will be too far from enemies to make good use of summoning or they'll be cut down by massed fire...I can't see it working well.


I think lesser daemons would be used much more often if they filled actual troop slots. As it is, by the time you bring 2-3 Marine squads you don't have much additional need for ordinary, MEQ-stat models. All-daemon troops would make for some interesting army builds. Then again, after the daemon bomb fiascoes of last Codex I can see GW overcompensating a little.

They would also be much more useful if they waited at least two turns to come in. Chaos armies have trouble getting past the enemy's front lines; by the time a deepstriking unit or Rhino get in position, they're often too late to summon.

 

[Nhyx]

All-daemon troops would make for some interesting army builds. Then again, after the daemon bomb fiascoes of last Codex I can see GW overcompensating a little.

Using just demon troops to hold objectives would be horrible, unless there was HEAVY cover, they would get shot to hell, or drawn off the objective to defend it.


I normally use a rhino, pop smoke, turn 2 (with the roll, of course) get the lesser demons out and tarpit a unit (or wipe them, depending on who im fighting), then drive on by with the rhino for a turn 3 greater demon summon.

One of the good things about the greater demon, while they're not as good as they used to be, they are still INTIMDATING to an opponent, and if left unchecked, they can do a ton of damage.
Though, it might help I use the forgeworld great unclean one as my greater demon

 

[Dei]

The thing is, what do you want them to do?

They're not very flexible (has to be summoned within an icon and no customization options, grenades or ranged weapons), can't ride any transports (and thus a bit on the slow side), not very tough (they die easily against small arms fire, amongst other things), you often waste other units movement and points on simply acting as a delivery service (more expensive and troublesome than a rhino) and the list goes on.

Unless you have a specific purpose in mind and build your list with that in mind, I just don't see how they'd be worth your points and trouble, the lure of cheapness is a common trap, sadly.

 

[Dave the Barbarian]

I normally use a rhino, pop smoke, turn 2 (with the roll, of course) get the lesser demons out and tarpit a unit (or wipe them, depending on who im fighting), then drive on by with the rhino for a turn 3 greater demon summon.

I use Lesser Daemons in a similar fashion. They're really best supporting a CSM squad directly; summoned off the Rhino, or the squad once they've disembarked (depending on when you get the DS roll), and tar-pitting a unit (hopefully after the CSM get some shots off) while the CSM camp an objective, or get some special weapons directed at other pressing targets.

Lesser Daemons off bikes can work ... but you better have a fast list all around, or they'll get shot to pieces, and accomplish nothing.

 

[Brymm]

I think a lot of chaos players overlook a big change in this last codex:
The lack of a cheap troop.
The lesser daemon in a round about way can fill this slot. For objective missions with 5 objectives, these little goons can scamper to that one that's placed in that area terrian behind the building away from the battle.
Also, with so many lists using just 2-3 squads of plague marines, these guys can swell those "troops" ranks, making your enemy have to deal with more than your rotten men.

 

[Intrepid]

Using just demon troops to hold objectives would be horrible, unless there was HEAVY cover, they would get shot to hell, or drawn off the objective to defend it.

Why horrible? Daemons aren't even around for the first couple turns of shooting (which is usually when it's heaviest). They're skilled and fearless fighters, too. And how often does a Rhino survive an entire game, anyway?

 

[Xardian]

I've been using a unit of lesser daemons for a while now in a competitive build (I like going off-base, what can I say?). For me, I have 3 units with icons to summon on, 2 of which are chaos Glory marines where the icon is already worth the points for the morale, and one off some plagues. So even including personal icon prices, the unit is dirt cheap.

They see 2 primary uses:

1 - sit back on an objective away from the front lines, prefferably in cover where Going to Ground gives them a 3+ save. It's as good as or better then power armor vs most shooting. Just try to keep them out of sight as much as possible and let them rack up the extra objective for you cheaper then basically any other effective scoring unit available to us.

2 - Support a front-line unit in an assault. They'll die horribly, but those extra attacks and bodies can make all the difference in breaking the enemy lines. Especially against enemies like guard that fold like a wet paper bag in the face of 15-20 MEQs charging them.

Now sometimes there's a squishy target around they can take on thier own and more power to them when the opportunity presents itself. They've also helped ding up heavy artillary with it's weak open-topped av 10 armor vs assaults. And best of all, they come in where you need a hand, making them very flexible supplemental troops. That flexibility is a big thing for messing with an opponent's plans or stacking the deck for your own. I can't stress that enough. Suddenly having 8-10 extra troops just show up where you want them without scatter can really mess up the other guy's day.

When the present codex came out, I was thoroughly disgusted with them and couldn't see a use for them. Now, I love the little buggers. Having a squad of 8-10 on call is a great boon to my army.

All that said, Piling all your summoning eggs into 1 biker basket is a massive mistake. One of the defining pros to LDs is the flexiblity in summoning locations. If you plan to field 3 bike squads with icons, or pile icons on troops / HQs, then ok. Now, a greater daemon from a little 3-man squad, that sounds like it might work at first. You could keep them hidden first turn or two and then turnbo-boost out. The catch is that they'd be silly-fragile and you want them near the enemy for the greater daemon, but if they get in close, they're about to be toast. Furthermore you have to move them into position a turn before the greater daemon shows up, but you don't know when that'll be so you need something that can weather some punishment if it has to. Bikes can do that, but the price tag goes through the roof to do it.

I'd favor the chosen with a rhino or even a terminator champ if you're fielding them. Something with durability that can get in close to drop the greater daemon where it'll do the most damage. I just don't see bikes pulling this off with a price-tag in the useful range.

Might be possible to try a super-ish unit though. Biker squad with naked champ and a biker lord / sorcerer tooled up for assault. It might work...

 

[Brymm]

Actually, my working army list right now is 1500 pts and includes 2 squads of plague marines in rhinos with icons and a jump packing lord with an icon also along with the bikes. I've tried it out twice now, with one battle being a raging sucess and the other being an epic failure.

Game 1 against a troop heavy gaurd player: My bikes turbo boost on turn one around a building next to some infiltraters. Turn two, summon the demons who charge the infiltraters (on an objective), the bikes drive and flamer a 20 man squad after passing a terrain test, then charge... there were many skulls for the skull throne that game.

Game 2 against a droppod heavy space marine force. I drive my bikes forward behind a building... and 5 sterngaurds with hot plasma drop behind them. They crash in specatular fashion. I do manage to summon the little guys off of my jump packing lord but they end up being out of assault range, but still in the range of a devestator squad running 4 missle launchers (who does that?!?). That was a scenario in which I could truly appreciate the difference between a 3+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save. I just had no chance of saving vs 15 wounds from rocket fire and another 7 vs bolter fire.
On the flip side, if those daemons had been within assault range of that devestator squad instead of 2 inches short, that game might have ended completely differently. The 10 little red bodies would have been amazing at sucking up wounds for my lightning clawed lord, who would have shredded that squad. But alas, he would have had to been in charge range too... but I digress. I will chaulk that up to bad play and not so much to bad army choices.

Or maybe a little of both. :beer:
Has anyone had success with larger bike squads? I've seen some stuff posted about Chaos Bikes costing more than loyalist bikes and some arguments that Chaos Bikes might not be worth it. Whats the normal setup for bikers?