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Now with STFU flames!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Time for a good ol' fashion debate. Remember, we're only debating this because it's fun to play with the wording of Games Workshop and common sense does not apply.

The other Terminator Armour + Bikes thread got me thinking about this, but I didn't want to hijack his thread and confuse the original poster.

We all know that Terminators cannot take Chaos Space Marine bikes - that's a given. We covered that in another thread. But what stops a Chaos Marine Biker Aspiring Champion from taking Terminator Armour?

A few points -

*Chaos Space Marine Bikes bought from the armoury are not the same as the bikes that CSM Bikers come with standard. If they were, then all CSM Bikers could upgrade to Plasma/Meltaguns, which is simply not the case. Also, armoury bikes are fitted with Combi-bolters, where the standard bikes are fitted with Twin-Linked Bolters. (Yes, I realize they are functionaly the same thing, but so are Laspistols and Autopistols.)

*The Aspiring Champion already comes with a bike, but all we know is that the CSM Bike from the armoury can not be combined with Terminator Armour. I find no such restriction on bikes that are standard for CSM Bikers.

As far as I can see, so long as the Champion does not upgrade his bike to the Armoury version, then he's not restricted by it being not allowed with Terminator Armour.

Any thoughts? Please keep in mind that common sense does not apply. Logic only. We all know that this is completely rediculous and asinine, thank you. But it is fun to find loop holes in the wording of the Codex, if should we never actually use it in a game. Nobody is actually going to field a Biker Champion with Terminator Armour, so you don't need to point it out.

All posts that refer to "common sense" as the complete basis of an arguement will be summarily edited or deleted.
 

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It says

only items marked with a * can be used by models in term. armour.

So beyond common sense there you go. If you are buying your aspiring champion Term. armour, you buy it from the armoury, and at the top of the armoury it says that line. So it tells you you can't. No loophole here.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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northoceanbeach said:
It says

only items marked with a * can be used by models in term. armour.

So beyond common sense there you go. If you are buying your aspiring champion Term. armour, you buy it from the armoury, and at the top of the armoury it says that line. So it tells you you can't. No loophole here.
The point Caluin is making is that an a.c. in a bike squad does not purchase his bike- he already comes with it. The limitation imposed by terminator armor applies to the armoury, though, it does not state that this limitation is intended to be universally applied to the entire codex- again, only the armoury. Equipment, then, that comes standard in a squad is not subject to the limitation of termi armor.
 

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I don't agree with that. He has to buy the Term armour from the armoury, so if he already has an item that cannot be used with the armour than he can't buy it.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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northoceanbeach said:
I don't agree with that. He has to buy the Term armour from the armoury, so if he already has an item that cannot be used with the armour than he can't buy it.
Of course, that's sound reasoning in terms of the spirit of the game. I'd like to know, however, where it states this premise in the rules. Logically (I mean philosophical logic and program-based logic for computers) you have to state every little obvious thing, or else there becomes a loop-hole.
 

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The only thing I could find remotely relevant (I admit it's somewhat tenuous):

CSM FAQ V3.0 said:
Q. Can Terminators use special movement modes?
A. There is no asterisk next to Daemonic Speed, Chaos Space Marine Bike or
Daemonic Fight, so No.
 

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Slave to the flesh
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In a perverse logical way Caluin is right, if you were to literally follow the wording. Terminator armour and bikes? cool!

Logic would dictate that the bike would have to be much bigger as even power armoured marines only just fit.
 

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Hmm, I can't think of anything I've ever read that would limit this. Not even gonna try to argue this one. Good Job Cal.

While I wouldn't play him, you just gave me a little modeling project.
 

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Well, like Caluin was saying: a bike bought as wargear isn't the same as a bike that the model inherently has. It's like this in all armies actually. Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes are Wyches on Jetbikes. Wyches have a 6+ save and Reaver Jetbikes have a 4+ save. Where does this extra armour come from? The Reaver Jetbike, as is described in the armoury, does not indicate any bonus to the model's save. As such, a character taking a bike does not get a 4+ save (unless he already has one, of course). The same goes for Eldar. Guardian's have a 5+ save and Warlocks have a 4+ save, yet Guardian Jetbikes units have a 3+ save and there's a specific entry for Warlocks on Jetbikes -- which gives them a 3+ save. Farseers, however, have no such entry and will have a 4+ save if they take a bike. The relevance to Chaos is simply as I have said: units or models that inherently have a piece of gear are different from units that can only take it as wargear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Addoran said:
The only thing I could find remotely relevant (I admit it's somewhat tenuous):
CSM FAQ V3.0 said:
Q. Can Terminators use special movement modes?
A. There is no asterisk next to Daemonic Speed, Chaos Space Marine Bike or
Daemonic Fight, so No.
Yeah, I found that one too, but figured it was specfically talking about the Bike bought from the armoury. It comes close, but not quite to answering this.

boydgarret said:
Of course, that's sound reasoning in terms of the spirit of the game. I'd like to know, however, where it states this premise in the rules. Logically (I mean philosophical logic and program-based logic for computers) you have to state every little obvious thing, or else there becomes a loop-hole.
Exactly. Obviously no one would use a Aspiring Champion Biker wearing Terminator Armour. You'd be laughed at all the way out of the store. But if you take a cold, hard calculated look at it, you have to wonder where in the rules does it say you can't make this combination? Things such as this is why Army Builder says you can do things that you obviously can't. A computer thinks logically, and only knows what it is told.
 

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The pickings are pretty slim for specific rules arguing against it. You're left only with inferences, such as the fact that a IC cannot buy both and a Terminator champion cannot buy a bike. Which I understand do not specifically mention the AC from the bike squad.

But as a sideways argument, under the description of Terminator armour its says that you are prohibitted from sweeping advances(of limited importance now I know, but it is essential to my point), while we know that the rest of the CSM bike squad could at the time make sweeping advances. So, if you gave a biker AC Terminator armour he would be slowing down the rest of the squad by denying them the sweeping advance since in any case where one unit without a special movement ability joins one with it, they are typically slowed down to the speed of the slowest member

Which under the previous editions set of rules(Under which the CSM codex came out I might add) was one of the great advantages of your bike squad. While, again this does not specifically state that you cannot do such a thing, it at least indicates a penalty for doing so, and so we can infer at least in some sense that such a combination is regarded unfavourably by the game designers.

Another perhaps sideways argument rests on the fact that now that Terminators are expected to be placed on the larger midsize round bases and that bikes are placed on cavalry bases, we can't be sure which base would be proper for such a terminator armoured biker champion. We would therfore have no way of knowing whether we were in error once we had chosen one of the two leaving us with in effect an illegal model.
 

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The armoury dosn't say models in termy armour cant BUY items not marked with *, it says they can't USE items not marked with an *, therefore if you equip a biker Asp Champ with termy armour, while he has a bike, he cannot use it.

As to the bikes being "different" thats a pretty weak argument.

IMHO, this thread will go no-where. As such it gets the dancing padlock.

Any views on why it should be unlocked feel free to PM me.

 
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