[Seraphim_Guard]

So, upon realizing that I just couldn't help myself and wanted to play a Space Marine army on the side of my Guard, I bought the AoBR set because it seemed like an amazing deal. I assembled everything, primed them, and then got caught up painting my demolishers and largely forgot about them.

Recently I have been giving more thought into starting the SM army again, but the vanilla 'dex just isn't cutting it for me. I looked around, found the BT 'dex, and instantly fell in love. I know now that this is the chapter I want to play.

My questions here are rather complex, but I will try to keep it short:
1. I am not so much interested in an overall guage of how competitive the army is, because my guard are awesome and if I want to win i can play them, but I would like an answer as to whether 10 man initiate squads in rhinos are good.

2. I notice that they can all have BP+CCW for free in these squads. This sounds like an awesome thing to take advantage of. Only problem, of course, is that none of the AoBR marines come with this except the serg. Can I salvage any of them or are they a lost cause? Going forward, how in the world do I get all these BP+CCW combos? How many come in tac squad boxes?

3. What out of the AoBR set is good for a BT army? Near as I can tell, if I cut off the arms ont he termies I can make them into assault termies relatively easily, the serg from the tac squad and the flamer-wielding one are both useful, but I am not so sure about dreadnaughts and the captain... do BT armies benefit from another HQ in the form of a commander?

4. Most basic: where in the world do I go from here? What should I buy next? I am thinking my eventual army will have at least one LRC and a couple rhinos in it, but beyond that I am pretty much clueless and a cursory search has revealed very little discussion on these guys that isn't at least a year old.

Thanks in advance!

 

[EmoJosh]

My questions here are rather complex, but I will try to keep it short:
1. I am not so much interested in an overall guage of how competitive the army is, because my guard are awesome and if I want to win i can play them, but I would like an answer as to whether 10 man initiate squads in rhinos are good.

I think they're quite good in Rhinos. You have the option of taking the big squad and footing them but it's just to easy to whittle them down before they hit. Also makes it easier to use a special weapon mounted.

2. I notice that they can all have BP+CCW for free in these squads. This sounds like an awesome thing to take advantage of. Only problem, of course, is that none of the AoBR marines come with this except the serg. Can I salvage any of them or are they a lost cause? Going forward, how in the world do I get all these BP+CCW combos? How many come in tac squad boxes?

I think BT are actually better off with Bolters. You hit other MEQs on a 4+ with re-roll if you take the only good Vow, you already have the advantage. Some things you DON'T want to charge though, and that's where Bolters are handy. If you really wanted to do it, just get sword and pistol bits and glue them to waists or back. Than you can run as either or.

3. What out of the AoBR set is good for a BT army? Near as I can tell, if I cut off the arms ont he termies I can make them into assault termies relatively easily, the serg from the tac squad and the flamer-wielding one are both useful, but I am not so sure about dreadnaughts and the captain... do BT armies benefit from another HQ in the form of a commander?

BT armies should never take an HQ not named the Emperor's Champion. The Commanders aren't up to snuff because of the out of date Codex and Chaplains are only good if you'r rushing Raiders. You coudl use the Captain as a Chmapion, he's a great model and is wysiwyg. I'd use the Dread as well, Drop Podding Dreads with MMs is a big boon, especially for a BT army who has trouble with over-priced Speeders and Bikes.

4. Most basic: where in the world do I go from here? What should I buy next? I am thinking my eventual army will have at least one LRC and a couple rhinos in it, but beyond that I am pretty much clueless and a cursory search has revealed very little discussion on these guys that isn't at least a year old.

I'd build up squads as you go, get the men and their Rhino, build them and paint them. Once you have your Troops, move on to your center pieces. It's really hard buying an army and painting it all after it's assembled (I'm guilty of this).

As for what to use in a list, I'm partial to a few Dreads, at least 3 Troops and than some Heavies to round out, Vindicators are good.

Hope that helps.

 

[Blargg]

I think BT are actually better off with Bolters. You hit other MEQs on a 3+ if you take the only good Vow, you already have the advantage. Some things you DON'T want to charge though, and that's where Bolters are handy.

You're the first person I've ever seen say such a thing, care to elaborate? Do you play BT often? I am quite interested in this unorthodox tactic.

 

[EmoJosh]

I'm not the person who thought of it, I picked it up from a guy on here. Sadly his name escapes me or I'd give due credit.

Basically you have the same profile as another Marine, but you hit on 4's with re-roll, he hits on 4's. You have the statistical advantage, especially with your PF or PW.

Now imagine some Genestealers. You do not want to charge that, you're hitting 4's with re-roll and wounding on 4's, he's off 3's and 4's with Rending and he's faster. So you Rapid Fire the threat and maybe take the return charge, if there is one, which you can deal with due to likely superior numbers.

It doesn't cost you anything to run Bolters. BT are not an all conquering CC army, they're actually not very great at delivering charges unless you run LR spam. So why not play a charge game against IG or something you have too and play a shooting game with slightly superior CC abilities over other armies, like vanilla marines? Makes sense to me, gives you a more well rounded approach.

 

[Blargg]

Basically you have the same profile as another Marine, but you hit on 3's, he hits on 4's.

Explain this?

 

[EmoJosh]

I'm sorry I meant to say re-rolling hits, I apologize. I'll go back and edit that. Rules lapse on my part. The point still stands however, sorry for that mess up.

 

[Seraphim_Guard]

Thanks for the answers Prince.

Darn, you had me excited that BT Initiates had WS5 for a moment there . Ah well.

Would you say vinidcators are better than preds than? Are BT preds worse than normal SM preds?

Any bike squads? Going to be honest, I hate the models, but if they are good I might field them anyway. I rather like the speeder models though, and they are fluffy for BT, so if the BT have solid speeders I;ll prolly run some o' them.

 

[kevin vanrooyen]

Would you say vinidcators are better than preds than?
I prefer the vindicator. Temmplars don't have great ranged AT and ranged templates so a nice demolisher cannon pie pllate is always nice.

Are BT preds worse than normal SM preds?
They're the same rules wise. BT predator destructors (AC 2 HB are more expensive tan their codex equivilents) while annihilators (TL LC and 2 LCs) are cheaper.

Any bike squads? Going to be honest, I hate the models, but if they are good I might field them anyway. I rather like the speeder models though, and they are fluffy for BT, so if the BT have solid speeders I;ll prolly run some o' them.
Bike squads are one of the best options in Codex Space Marines, however BT bikes are much more expensive and don't have a sergeant to lead them. I'd stick with speeders if I were you.

The Emperor Protects

 

[EmoJosh]

I hate Predators personally. The inability to move and fire everything hurt them so much, I'd always take a Vindie if I could. Busting armor is hard for you so a template that people are afraid of goes a long way.

I don't like Bike Squads but Attack Bikes are amazing. Either those or Land Speeders are almost mandatory for Marines, sadly you have to overpay but they're still great.

 

[Seraphim_Guard]

That makes sense Prince. Sadly, I have been playing around with lists and I can't fit 3 squads in rhinos in in 1500 pts and still have room for a vindicator if I want to include a 5 man assault termie squad w/ FC in a LRC (which I do). Would it be too horrible to run the crusader squads in drop pods? They are far cheaper in the BT 'dex than [email protected](no fair that C:SM gets 'em at 35, ah well).

Still looking for advice as to whether bolter or bp+ccw is better, as although Prince makes excellent point I can think of instances where it might be better to have the extra attack in cc than be able to fire the extra shot (mobs of 30 shoota boyz?) With bolters, after all, I can only kill 10 things no matter how well I roll.

I am also having trouble fitting in an attack bike squad. It is pretty much coming down to either a MM dread in a pod or a two-bike attack bike squad w/ MM. Not really sure what is better.

 

[EmoJosh]

I think one squad in a Pod is fine, especially with a Melta.

I'm not a big Land Raider fan, personally I'd say ditch it and rush more Troops and scary tanks. Putting so many points in one basket always makes me nervous, I've seen so many LR's ruined early and it's a gut blow. They are fluffy and fun, but just not competitive if that matters.

I'd take 2 Bikes in separate squads and run them behind your armor. The Dread is okay but you need a decent scatter, sometimes you won't get that.

 

[Seraphim_Guard]

If I don't take the LRC, can I still run the termies? Maybe in a rhino? I could take 1 10 man squad to 9 and put the champ in that rhino instead of the LRC.

I can't take 1 bike attack bike squadrons, BT is 2-3 @ 50 pts/model.

 

[EmoJosh]

Wow BT just can't catch a break. Sorry they're one of the Codexes I don't know backwards. Maybe scrap those than, Meltas in Rhinos and something else will do fine, maybe Vindies, something.

I think Termies are great with an Ac and Deep Striking, you can even run 2 ACs because your book is old. Maybe slap a Teleport Homer somewhere and let them go to town on side/rear armor. Still good in CC too and awesome shooters. Something to think about.

 

[Kelter Skelter]

I'm confused how BT get re-rolls with their bolters.

With bolters BT are just space marines that have to take morale tests everytime they lose a single model.

You're better off with an assload of attacks and re-rolls in CC rather than some bolter shots and then not being able to assault then getting assaulted and being down 2 attacks per model.

In other words:

BP+CCW = 10 BP shots, assault with 30 attacks(usually 29 because of PF) that reroll.

Bolters = 10-20 bolter shots(depending on range) then waiting to get assaulted and only having 10 attacks in assault(usually 9 because of PF) that reroll.



You have more tactical advantage with the range of bolters but, that only gives you an extra 12" without being able to setup a firebase because every casualty makes you move.

Bolters blow for BT.

 

[EmoJosh]

They re-roll on CC with one of their Vows, the Bolters get no benefit. Basically, you are a normal Marine that beats up other Marines in CC more often than not. With BPs, you lose against some armies because you are a 100% aggressive build and can't be aggressive. That's why Bolters are a better overall idea than Pistol and CCW imho.

 

[Kelter Skelter]

but you're still going to reroll in CC either way

i'd rather have 29 rerolls instead of 9

with our terminators getting 2 autocannons you have other options for firepower

 

[EmoJosh]

Well you're only getting 10 more attacks not 20. Do whatever you like, but for my money a BT army that wants to be take on all comers is better off with Bolters. There's pretty few opponents when you need the extra attacks, MEQs is basically it. I like increased flexibility against hordes/CC units and still being better than most Marines out there by a bit.

 

[Kelter Skelter]

i'm adding the extra 10 because if you rapid fire you're the on that's going to be getting charged

 

[EmoJosh]

Yes but the point of that is so the charge is manageable from units where it usually wouldn't be. Also, Rapid Firing doesn't mean you wasted a charge opportunity, maybe you hopped out of a transport or were only within 7-12". Bolters do not remove the option to be the aggressor, they give the option to make other units manageable.

That's why I like them, you have more options and only weaken one in the trade.

 

[Kelter Skelter]

I can see how it could be benificial but, I don't feel like it's a big enough advantage to say Bolters are way better than BP+CCW.

Plus it's just not as fun.