The BT's don't use veteran sargs so you can only get 2 attacks (1 in profile + 1 paired weapons). Is it a disadvantage to not get 3 attacks like other space marine chapters?

Also, the new BT codex is out and there can only be 1 powerfist in a squad. In the old codex they could get 2 powerfists in a (assault) squad. I was under the impression that 2 powerfists were allowed to balance out the lower number of attacks. Also it would balance out the other lackings the BTs have versus the other SM chapters.

I was scared to go against BT until I learned that they only get one power weapon / fist per squad, and only 3 attacks on the charge.

SW are the true close combat kings, they get drunk and can have 3 fists a squad.

 

I was scared to go against BT until I learned that they only get one power weapon / fist per squad, and only 3 attacks on the charge.

SW are the true close combat kings, they get drunk and can have 3 fists a squad.

SW are the cheez! Blood claws get +2A on the charge and paired weapons. Add 3 powerfists to that and then it becomes cheez!

 

correct, i do think that the new black templars rules have cut down their assault capability somewhat. GW is nuts to do that! Black Templars have to rely on assaults to win and theyre cutting squads down to one hidden fist with one less attack! Jeez, those guys...
And yes, the way it is, space wolves are the masters of CC. like 10+ models, plus wolf guard, thats a huge number of hidden fist attacks...

 

They have taken away some of thier sting but what they have taken they have given back. A crusader squad can now be 20 models strong giving a total of 30 WS 4 attacks and 30 WS3 attacks on the charge, also they can take a crusader as a transport option for nearly every squad in the army.

 

the fact that almost every squad can have a crusader isn't worth the fact that we can only have one pf in our squads nowadays. the crusaders are very expensive and I would prefer to have 2 pf in a squad then having a crusader for every squad

 

I recived the Codex today and must admit that I´m shocked. What were the rulez boys thinging/smoking/swallowing when they designed the new BT Codex.

Compared to regular Codex SM there are really small advantages but immens disadvantages:

ProBT:

• Zeal
• Some Moral Issues
• LRC as Transport
• Vows (but each vow has an disadvantage of it´s own)
• Emperors Champion
• LRC blessed Hull
• bigger Squadsize (but imho Neophytes are not really worth it)

Contra BT:

• No Librarian
• No Psycic Hood
• No Scouts / No Scout bikes
• No Whirlwind
• No Devastators
• No Sergants
• Zeal (yes imho more a disadvantge than an advantage)
• higher Points Cost per model
• must take EC (costs it´s pts too)
• Abhor the witch
• kill them all

The absolute worst of all is the new zeal rule, if the old one was kinda "not feeling right" this one is "definitaly stupid", when up to 19 men (10 Paladins and 9 Neophytes) run away from the battle as one Neophyte dies from shooting !!!! :x

 

The absolute worst of all is the new zeal rule, if the old one was kinda "not feeling right" this one is "definitaly stupid", when up to 19 men (10 Paladins and 9 Neophytes) run away from the battle as one Neophyte dies from shooting !!!! :x

It was my understanding that the zeal rule meant that they aren't running away from combat, but charging headlong into it.

 

Black Templars are more balanced now. The whole dynamic of the list is geared towards the offence, and no one advantage is devastating like it used to be.

All squads can take pistols and combat weapons and always hit on 3's. That's fantastically good considering most opposition will be WS4. With a veteran sergeant you lose one power fist attack per squad - it's not *that* bad.

Drop podding in a unit with a chaplain with a cenobyte servitor or two is also going to put the enemy in a world of pain, no matter what they try.

BT's were insanely good before - it's good to see that GW can achieve some sensible balance with a new codex.

 

With a veteran sergeant you lose one power fist attack per squad - it's not *that* bad.

True, but my beef is that BT's can only have 1 PF per squad.

Someone tried to tell me that having a cheaper points cost for the model with the PF, i.e. there is no need to buy a veteran, was the bonus for not getting the extra attack. I almost smacked him upside the head when I heard that. He also went onto mention that other space marine chapters, bar the SW's, only get 1 PF per squad so why should BT's be any different? I have to admit, it was then I smacked him upside his head. How are those good things for the BT's?

 

True, but my beef is that BT's can only have 1 PF per squad.

Someone tried to tell me that having a cheaper points cost for the model with the PF, i.e. there is no need to buy a veteran, was the bonus for not getting the extra attack. I almost smacked him upside the head when I heard that. He also went onto mention that other space marine chapters, bar the SW's, only get 1 PF per squad so why should BT's be any different? I have to admit, it was then I smacked him upside his head. How are those good things for the BT's?

Your friend is correct, truthfully.

Before BT, who else had the kind of CC advantages that SW do? Even Blood Angels, who are supposedly CC-oriented, are absolutely AWFUL in CC compared to 3rd edition BT. SW and BA were the combat kings long before a BT codex was even a thought.

Why should they recieve loads of advantages, while the first foundings are left with outdated army lists?

 

tsk tsk, your hitting on 3s is nothing compared to a death company, in the new rules, space puppies have always been the best, and always will be, somebody at GW loves them. Bts, are now a hord space marine army, which is an odd mix, but deadly if used properly. And Zeal is probably one of the best movement bonuses, besides fleet of foot, in the game, it also makes a lot more sence. And that powerfist is way better and charactor killing, then normal space marines, a buffed out chaos lord, with 6WS will be stopped pretty fast, with those attacks. I do agree, 1 powerfist in a squad in to few, especally a 20 man squad. They really should have made it more like, 1 fist for every 10 models, rounding up, so you could have 2. Secondly, blood claws are crap, but so are the scouts mixed in with BTs. BTs will have maxium effect with about 8 men per squad, maxing the number of fists for effectiveness, since your fists are half what a normal marine would pay for one, and your more then likely to outnumber a normal space marine, you can probably field 2 or 3 more tactical squads, allowing for double the number powerfist attacks, with better hitting percentages, for less points, your still a desent army. Do Bts have verteran squads? if so how did they fair?

 

I checked Codex armeggedon and Codex black templars last night to check out some of the changes. Now admitadly the assault squad can only have one power fist however it can now have 2 plasma pistols or flamers with the power fist instead of having to choose one or the other. Perhaps not as good but it's still a fair trade off.

Also a Black Templars bike squad can have 3 Power Weapons now instead of the previous 2.

As for the Sword Brethern they are almost identical to Space marine vets except they can take storm shields or if they have terminator honours they can add a Combat shield to thier equipment for an extra 5 points.

 

The new BT are far more balanced than the old no brainer army, it now requires skill to play, not like every beginning player sdtarted with lot's of BT's, dump them in a rhino and just race to the other side.
It's far nicer to play with and against now with the new rules, the EC is far more dangerous and BT chaplain are deadly.

 

I always found that Black Templars having only 1 powerfist was not too much of an issue. Black Templars still used to win games with only 1 powerfist, and they will continue to perform the same.

Especially with the improved 'Suffer not the Unclean to Live' vow, things like Wraithlords and C'tan will be a little easier to handle in a wide scale assualt.

The loss of two powerfists in an assualt squad will be felt though, since it gets rid of the haymaker punch I used to give those big nasty creatures, but getting two plasma pistols/ flamers is a consolation. I guess its for the best, since it was hard to come up with the extra power fists for those assualt squads which didn't come with the box.

 

The only thing that bothers me, is they have a trait system, in a sence now, which really seems out of place, since codex chapters, shouldnt need traits, or at least, in my opinion, i guess it would be cool for succesor BT armies, but doesnt that seem unfluffy? as far as i know, the BTs just keep growning, more like a legion then a chapter, though it sounded like they have only a few more chapters, then is "legal" under imperial or what ever law.

 

Just wait until GW gets their hands on the SW and BAs. Then there will be balance in the universe. Until then, grab some SWs and go nuts.

BTs did lose the power fists, but I doubt anyone is shocked. What did they gain? Cool models, character, and truely unique squads. Leave the power stuff to typical SM squads with small numbers and enjoy the BTs.

 

cosidering what happened to BA and SW and what they ahve to bear until their codecies are reviewed.. I think ONLY? having 1 power fist in a squad is not so terrible.

Looking at Ba, and I have been recently, look at their setbacks: sure they still got DC, but any oppopnent with ordinance can sort that (can you say defiler?). The used to be the only ones with furious charge, between codex chaos and cosex SM now pretty much most things in powered armour get it.

Difference is your power fist got reigned in, wheras in the FC case, instead of toning it down everyone else got toned up

 

I like the codex alot!... i think.., want to make sure that I can create a list that can avoid the "Rush-only-tactic".

That bothers me....
1: Righteous Zeal..I hate that fallback loose the 25% casualties rule aswell ie in your 20 models strong squad: "Hey they shoot Brother Bo! run for your life lads!". They are actually real cowards then it comes to enemy fire. Now I have to make sure that wont happen by buying heroes for half of my pts.

2: The gorgeous pictures shows that the holy bolter is still no.1 (the CC variant comes as a steady no.2) but the rules tells me to go all CC... I WANT MY BOLTERS!

 

The new righteos zeal is ALOT bettereven with the spontaneos fit of falling back they have now. Even with a basic leadership of 8, most of your leadership tests should get passed. Taking characters is no big deal since its not much of a change from before. Black Templars have always been character heavy from their lack of sergeants. Also, the fact that its a consolidate move will mean that it isnt affected by difficult terrain either.

I mean, you should still be using cover or blocking terrain in your advance, just because a casualty will make you run forward doesnt mean you actually should want to take casualties. But at least you will always get something back for your losses. Its a known fact that an assualt can't be staged without *some* casualties at some point.

Bolters are even better than before now, since you can remain stationary to fire in your turn, but still be running forward with the rest of your army! That means lascannons and plasmacannons (technically) firing on the move.:w00t: You can mix up your squads now too, although I would recommend picking cc or shooting and commiting most of your squad to that area.

 

Right on Ebon Hand. I first heard about the new Zeal rules and was sad. Then I sat down and thought about it... it's awesome. Put in a Commander w/ Standard Bearer or a Chaplain (especially Grimaldus) and you're pretty much going to zoom up the field everytime you lose somebody.

I've been wondering about something vs. Alaitoc Eldar. If they shoot at us, will we need to make a morale save if we lose anybody? It'd almost make me happy to see them.

 

I love it too. Now Standard Bearers not only work, but are extremely important to the Black Templars, at it should have been from the beginning.

I'm guessing you mean from Pathfinders? As long as its in the shooting phase, Righteous Zeal will trigger if anyone is dropped by their foul alien bullets. But if its a sniper rifle, they will have to take a pinning test first, then take a morale test. Unless you made a vow to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor... 8)

 

against alaitoc you defenetly take uphold the honour the emperor

 

Speaking as an ork player, I too approve of the new zeal rules.
Anything that gets the black buggers from their side of the table to mine that much faster is always a good thing. :yes:
However, to get back on topic... I don't consider the lack of powerfists to be that bad of a thing, unless you spend your spare time trying to kick monsterous critters down a notch or three. Otherwise, the sheer amount of attacks you can get will take care of everything else.

 

Well... The Black Templar have been screwed over with the new Codex. The lack of a second Powerfist is only ONE of the many things that make the BT's... Bleh. I don't have the same respect fot them any more.

Sure, they've become more balanced, but... They don't scare me anymore. I'm not a Black Templar player, but I remember being worried and all of that fun stuff before fighting the Black Templar. Now... They're just another Space Marine army with a whole bunch of weaknessess IMO. Yeah, they've got some good fluff and a few interesting options, but overall... I'm sorry to say it, but IMO, the Black Templars are too weak. I can't see them matching up against players that have a clue about what they are doing.

 

They're just another Space Marine army with a whole bunch of weaknessess IMO.

Winner! That should be the point.

And advantages, of course. The whole problem with the 3rd ed model for space marines was that the "special" chapters (SW, BA, updated DA, old BT) tended to be unconditionally better than their "vanilla" counterparts.

So what happened? Most people ended up playing a variant because they had all the funky toys that made them extremely good over their basic cousins. Even if you wanted to play close to vanilla marines, you may as well have just gone for DA - they had all the same stuff as codex marines, with the added bonus of not running away that often.

You should be getting something different with each chapter, not something better.