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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

I've been playing Warhammer 40k since 1st edition and I'm currently trying to get to grips with 5th Edition. I'm rather dismayed as to what they've done with Missile Launchers. As I understand it, you no longer roll to see if you hit on your BS, instead you roll the artillery scatter dice and a D6, which means you only really hit accurately 1/3 times. This being the equivalent chance of hitting with BS 2, I'm wondering if there's any point to having missile launchers in my armies unless I'm up against opponents with large squads.

Does anyone else out there think that Blast Weapons have been nerfed by the new edition?
 

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Torn ACL FTL
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Blast weapons have actually improved. Any model touched is hit, there's no more partials. Also, when scattering you roll 2D6 and subtract your BS so with Space Marines anything 6 or less isn't going to be a huge scatter. Best part, you'll never "miss" since shooting into a crowd will net you hits even with scatter.

Blast away.
 

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Drills baby.
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Indeed. For a Space Marine, the average scatter distance is 3", which isn't terrible when shooting at large units. Especially now that partials counts as hits. It even makes grenade launchers useful!

Some have suffered from it though. The Fire Prism isn't a very good tank hunter these days, because scattering the focused shot will usually result in the strength being halved. Oh well.
 

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Ender of Threads
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This particular change has been very well received, even if just for the simple fact that it finally puts an end to missiles flying off target and disappearing into the void when they really should have blown up SOMEWHERE.

As the others have said, it's really not that bad - your average marine still hits on either of the direct hit faces on the scatter die, and your average Marine has any roll of 4 or less turn into a direct hit regardless of scatter. For armies like Orks it's not that great for accuracy, but come on... Orks? Accurate?!?

To top it all off, the end of 4+ partials has easily doubled the number of hits from blast weapons while reducing time spent fiddling with the template trying to decide how many partials there are. Now, it hits, they're touched, they're hit - end of story.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
An improvement of the "where'd my Miss-ile go?" of 4th Edition perhaps but I'm seeing a lot of Astartes-centric arguments here, I think it's safe to say that they are the least affected by this rules change. Space Marines are pretty much the cream of any troop in the universe, so considering the average roll on 2d6 is actually 7, that means you should expect at least an average 3" deviation minimum for marines and a maximum of 8"! That's a sophisticated laser guided missile system they're supposed to be using, not a bazooka!

Orks are going to have a problem but then it's a given that orks can't shoot straight, you account for this in your army choice. This rule screws your average BS3 unit, in particular Eldar.

I like Missile Launchers because of their tactical diversity but if it wasn't for the twin-linked re-roll, I'd be tempted to cut them off my wave serpents and replace them with something more reliable like starcannons, not something I like doing either as I find them somewhat excessive.

Back in 2nd/3rd Edition, if you hit you hit. If you missed, the shot would deviate according to the scatter/artillery dice or misfire if you were really unlucky. Aside from the Armour Penetration rules, I think that was a better system.
 

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Ender of Threads
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Orks are going to have a problem but then it's a given that orks can't shoot straight, you account for this in your army choice. This rule screws your average BS3 unit, in particular Eldar.
Not really... A hit is still a hit no matter who's shooting, and the only difference between BS4 and BS3 is an inch of scatter. Granted, it's plenty of rope to hang yourself with if you're trying to snipe off a target that's only got one or two models, but if you're lobbing these things at any decently sized unit you're still going to score hits more often than not.

In fact, the handy instinct to spread out that most players faithfully follow to avoid giving Ordnance shots a disgusting amount of free hits works in your favour here - while it does reduce your maximum potential hits, it spreads the squad out so that any half decent scatter roll will still find targets among the spread out troops.

I don't know what else to say... I'm quite a fan of the new rules, but I guess that's me and this is you. Hopefully your luck will turn around.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
In this case, it was a squad of 10 Sisters Of Battle clustered round an objective. Missile banana'd 6" inches off target and hit nothing but air from a distance of about 18". That's the equivalent of shooting and missing from 36 yards away!
Admittedly, I didn't use my twin link re-roll (didn't know about it, like I said I'm only just getting into 5th) but it just doesn't make sense to me that one of the most advanced race in the universe can't come up with an accurate blast weapon. Eldar don't even get Crystal Targeting Matrices anymore 8(
Compare if you will the Exorcist, a Heavy D6 S8 AP 1 Missile Launcher where the lack of blast effect is irrelevant thanks to a good probability of high rate of fire and anything getting hit falling over in short order.

Seems to me that 5th Ed. is all about the direct fire, weight of dice and re-rolls.
 

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Drills baby.
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You do know that the Eldar codex was written for 4th edition, right? The edition where blasts dissipated into thin air if you missed?

And the CTR was never close to being very good. It was... weird. Very weird. Now if you would complain about Starcannons not having 3 shots any more then I could at least understand that.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I am aware, yes. However in 4th Edition, I had a 50% chance of being bang on target, now it's only 33% with a significant margin for error on the miss. As I mentioned before, I've always considered Starcannons excessive. I actually welcomed the reduction since they ranked among the distinctly twinky elements of the Eldar army lists over the years (remember Craftworld Iyanden having Wraithguard and Wraithlords as Troops?).
CTR was great if you knew how to use it ie pop up attacks. It meant your entire force if mobilised could hunker down behind terrain and make it particularly difficult to get hit by anything except guess weaponry. Perfect for a Wild Rider Host.

I'll play a few more games with Missile Launchers to see how I feel about them on balance, though it's something that's likely to be addressed as a house rule with the group I play with.
 

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LO's Resident Time Lord
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It's true that the rules for blast weapons have changed, but you're only looking at how it affects MISSILES. The rules changed for blast weapons in general. One thing that changed dramatically was the elimination of the "partial hit" rule. This made flamers worth taking again, while at the same time it made missiles less worth it (at least by your estimation).

At the same time, the newer rules made vehicles a LOT tougher to crack, especially AV14, and they gave cover saves to... well... everything. The reason? GW wanted to make the game into more of an aggressive, in-your-face game, discouraging players from standing off and shooting, which admittedly can make for a static, dull game. Now, the trend is not to pack your army with missiles, but pack the troops with flamers and stick 'em in cheap transports. No, that's not just marines. It's Sisters of Battle (who made out BIG time with this!) and also IG. I haven't looked at the new nids yet, but I know they have flamer template weapons, too, so they'll be loving it. Yes, the Eldar took a hit, but their codex was not written too well in the first place. Ditto for orks, but I wouldn't be surprised that next time around you'll see cheaper transports and more opportunities for flamer-type weapons. When Blood Angels, Necrons and the Dark Eldar come out, mark my words, you'll see the same thing, or something similar.
 

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Scourge Lord
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4E accuracy for BS2 blasts: 33%
5E accuracy for BS2 blasts: 33+8 = 41%

4E accuracy for BS3 blasts: 50%
5E accuracy for BS3 blasts: 33+17 = 50%

4E accuracy for BS4 blasts: 67%
5E accuracy for BS4 blasts: 33+28 = 61%

4E accuracy for BS5 blasts: 83%
5E accuracy for BS5 blasts: 33+42 = 75%

And that's not factoring in scatters of 1-2", which are fairly common and usually hit a few models.
But it's pretty clear that the last ones who should be complaining about blast weapons are Orks, Guard, or Eldar.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Can you explain what your numbers represent Krovin? I don't understand what it is you're adding to the basic 1/3 chance of rolling a "Hit" as a comparison.

Flamers would be good I agree Canew, however despite being a simple in game upgrade it's a significant expense to buy the metal Storm Guardian parts when almost everyone else gets flamers on their sprues as part of a normal box set. I'd welcome their inclusion in the basic Guardian box. The reason I'm specifically talking about Missile Launchers is purely context: I don't have any other blast weapons in my Eldar army.
 

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LO's Resident Time Lord
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Can you explain what your numbers represent Krovin? I don't understand what it is you're adding to the basic 1/3 chance of rolling a "Hit" as a comparison.

Flamers would be good I agree Canew, however despite being a simple in game upgrade it's a significant expense to buy the metal Storm Guardian parts when almost everyone else gets flamers on their sprues as part of a normal box set. I'd welcome their inclusion in the basic Guardian box. The reason I'm specifically talking about Missile Launchers is purely context: I don't have any other blast weapons in my Eldar army.
It's a problem, without a doubt, but mech Eldar do ok. Put some dragons in a serpent, and you won't need missiles to take out vehicles. Use a lot of multi-shot weapons like scatterlasers to take out hordes. Edlar on foot are harder and harder to use effectively these days.
 

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The Future
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Can you explain what your numbers represent Krovin? I don't understand what it is you're adding to the basic 1/3 chance of rolling a "Hit" as a comparison.
I think the second numbers are the %age of rolling a small enough distance for scatter that the units BS will reduce to 0 - in effect a hit.

That's a point actually - you are reducing the amount you scatter by your BS aren't you?
 

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The Future
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Can you explain what your numbers represent Krovin? I don't understand what it is you're adding to the basic 1/3 chance of rolling a "Hit" as a comparison.
I think the second numbers are the %age of rolling a small enough distance for scatter that the units BS will reduce to 0 - in effect a hit.

That's a point actually - you are reducing the amount you scatter by your BS aren't you?
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
It's a problem, without a doubt, but mech Eldar do ok. Put some dragons in a serpent, and you won't need missiles to take out vehicles. Use a lot of multi-shot weapons like scatterlasers to take out hordes. Edlar on foot are harder and harder to use effectively these days.
Yeah, my entire force rides on the back of something. I use Wraithguard supported by a warlock mounted in a wave serpent as my heavy hitters, though swapping them out with Fire Dragons might be worthwhile now AP 1 gives you +1 Damage as well as 2D6 Armour Penetration for the melta effect.

Working out cumulative probability isn't that straight forward unfortunately. As far as I can remember from my A Level Statistics, you don't add the probability of success once you've already recorded a success. So a straight hit is still 1/3 chance. However, to then score a hit after failing would be:

2/3 (the chance of failing to hit) multiplied by the chance of rolling your BS or under on 2D6:
1/36 for BS 2
3/36 for BS 3
6/36 for BS 4
10/36 for BS 5

So the chances of hitting after failing would be 2% for BS 2, 6% for BS 3, 11% for BS 4 and 19% for BS5.

Add that to your 1/3 chance of hitting is your basic chance of hitting OR "missing" on target. Therefore BS2=35%, BS3=39%, BS4=44% and BS5=52%

In this case, Blast Weapons for Space Marines have reduced in accuracy (defined as a shot landing exactly on target) by 22%, whereas Eldar have lost 11%. Orks have actually improved if anything by 2% but that amount is negligible for the purpose of dice rolling and anyone lucky enough to have BS5 is losing a whopping 31% accuracy!

In D6 context, the discrepancy between 4th and 5th Ed. means Orks aren't affected, Sapce Marines are -1, whereby anyone with BS 5 is getting an effective -2 to blast weapon hits!
In conclusion, it doesn't look like Eldar have suffered as badly in the convertion but it has drastically affected the accuracy of anyone BS4+

Just as well I'm planning on a new Ork Army soon then ^_^"
 
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