[Mathlete]

Ok, was thinking about what powers you get a 2+ inv save from - in the codex it says "The Daemon has a 2+ inv save against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons". So a standard way of reading this would be to say that wounds caused by say Bolt of Change, or Avenger. However, I think that RaW opens up some interesting ideas;

Doom/Guide
10 guided Dire Avengers blade storm 40 shots at your doomed flesh hounds, hitting thirty times, and then another 7 with guide, and wounding 16 times, and then again 10 times with doom. The 7 guide hits are caused by a psychic power, and the the 10 doom wounds are caused by a psychic power. Would you argue for a 2+ inv save?

Null Zone
4 Devastors fire lascannons at your Bloodthirster, hitting three times, wounding three times. You save two of these. Would you argue that you get a 2+ save for the reroll against the other wound? Possibly you'll have to reroll the passed 2+ again?

Warp Time
Any hits or wounds that are rerolled by the CSM player are caused by psychic powers.

Lash (A real stretch of the rules)
If a lash is used on a unit to clump them together, or brought out of cover, if that unit is then hit by a blast template or enemy fire, those wounds are indirectly caused by a psychic power.

Basically any power that causes you to take a wound by RaW would allow you to take a 2+ save.

Now I'm not saying I'd do this in a friendly game, but I might in a tournement, espcially if my opponent showed a proclivaty to rules lawyering.

Discuss.

 

[ikbuh]

I think it would have to be an actual point of damage directly from a psychic power for example Warp Blast. I would have to argue that you don't get it from Guide/Doom because those powers are not dealing damage, the shuriken launchers are. Doom would be the only thing worth arguing because it's something put on your units (whereas guide does not directly effect you) which is affecting damage, but it's still not directly causing damage.

Lets look at it from this perspective: An eldar player does the same thing to a unit of Sisters of Battle, who have Shield of Faith (5+ save against all powers used on them). Without question they would get to save against Doom because the power was used on them, but would they get a save from Guide? No because it was used on a bit of eldar, even though said guide led to, we'll say, 3 wounds.

As for Doom and BotBG, I still say no because while Doom has led to wounds it did not cause the wounds in the same sense that My sisters would not get to resist Guide.

 

[Mathlete]

With regards to Doom and Guide - both effect dice rolls, guide to hit, doom to wound, and both can result in further wounds for a model/squad. As they are both psychic powers, then these wounds were caused by a psychic power. If the psychic power didn't go off, the wounds would not have been caused. Going by the codex "The Daemon has a 2+ inv save against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons" - a doom wound is caused by a psychic power. While the shuriken catapult might have been the thing doing the wounding, without the psychic power there would be no wound. Ditto Guide.

My "normal" reading of the rule would be the same as yours, and in a normal pick up game would be as such. But in a competetive tourney, I would definetly push for a 2+ save vs. any wound caused due to the interference of a psychic attack - so any time a psychic test is taken, passed, and causes a BotBG model to take a save, I'd be doing it on a 2+.

Without the SoB book in front of me I can't comment on the wording of the rule. This theory hinges on the wording in the daemon codex.

 

[mynameisgrax]

The above posters are correct. When they say 'caused by' they mean the actual weapon/ability/power that was used to cause the wound. So it would work against psychic shooting attacks and force weapons, but really nothing else. It's a little strange that GW just didn't say that, and clear up the confusion.

 

[Mathlete]

Just for the threads sake, how're you getting that the wound has to be from a psychic power (i.e. from doombolt), and not the result of a psychic attack (i.e. doom)? From RaW I can't see it, and RaI is difficult to fathom - after all, it's the only psychic defense in the army.

 

[danceman]

Mathlete; you've answered your own question, sort of. While it was a psychic power who granted the model with the shuriken catapult the re-roll it was infact the attack from the shuriken catapult who caused the wound. Ergo, no 2+ save because the wound was not caused by a psychic power or force weapon.

So the operative word here is 'caused' and if going by RAW you would have to supply a rule which supports the idea that interferring psychic powers grants abilities/weapons a psychic nature in the first place. There is no such rule.

But to make things easier, just ask yourself these questions; "Is a shuriken a psychic power or force weapon?" and the answer is; no. "Did the Shuriken catapult cause the wound?" and the answer is; yes.
And since the wording on BotBG is; "The Daemon has a 2+ inv save against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons". Therefor, you do not get the 2+ save from these attacks as the wound need to be caused by a psychic attack where in the case of the shuriken catapult it was caused by a standard weapon with no psychic power properties at all.

In short, I seriously advice against even trying to make the case for the 2+ save at a tournament.

 

[ikbuh]

But to make things easier, just ask yourself these questions; "Is a shuriken a psychic power or force weapon?" and the answer is; no. "Did the Shuriken catapult cause the wound?" and the answer is; yes.
And since the wording on BotBG is; "The Daemon has a 2+ inv save against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons". Therefor, you do not get the 2+ save from these attacks as the wound need to be caused by a psychic attack where in the case of the shuriken catapult it was caused by a standard weapon with no psychic power properties at all.

In short, I seriously advice against even trying to make the case for the 2+ save at a tournament.

This.

To add an example of a 2+ to your example:

Is Warp Blast a Psychic Power or Force Weapon? Yes.
Did Warp Blast cause the Wound? Yes.
2+ Save

 

[Mathlete]

Ok, lets take the shuriken argument to its logical conclusion. 20 shots from anything roll to hit from a guided unit. 10 hit, and when the ten that miss reroll, five more hit. Of the first ten hits five wound, of the 5 guided hits three wound.

"if going by RAW you would have to supply a rule which supports the idea that interferring psychic powers grants abilities/weapons a psychic nature in the first place."

If I was asking for a 2+ save against all the shots, there would need to be a rule written as you suggests. I'm not saying all shots from the weapons count as effected by a psychic power. I'm saying that guide, a psychic power, causes hits that would not have exsisted without the psychic power. So the three guided wounds are directly caused by a psychic power. Without the power these wounds do not exsist. The BotBG rule states "The Daemon has a 2+ inv save against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons". Ergo a flesh hound would recieve a 5+ save vs the five non-guided wounds, and a 2+ save vs. the three guided wounds.

Now replace guide with doom, or with warptime and you get the same results.

It's another example of poorly written rules by GW. Now, a seriously unreasonable player could take this to a rediculous degree, saying that wounds caused due to lash clumping, or from models that have previously avoided death due to making a fortuned save, or any number of examples where a psychic power played some part would cause a 2+ save, but I'm not arguing for that. Though arguments could be made. I leave that for someone with more balls and less friends.
----------
"Is Warp Blast a Psychic Power or Force Weapon? Yes.
Did Warp Blast cause the Wound? Yes.
2+ Save"

Doesn't mean that the following isn't true;

Is Fortune/Doom/Warp Time a Psychic Power or Force Weapon? Yes
Did Fortune/Doom/Warp Time cause the wound/s? Yes
2+ save.

Saying that wounds that are resultant from a psychic power granting a reroll from hits or wounds are not hits or wounds caused by a psychic power isn't true.

 

[CrownAxe]

"Is Warp Blast a Psychic Power or Force Weapon? Yes.
Did Warp Blast cause the Wound? Yes.
2+ Save"

Doesn't mean that the following isn't true;

Is Fortune/Doom/Warp Time a Psychic Power or Force Weapon? Yes
Did Fortune/Doom/Warp Time cause the wound/s? Yes
2+ save.

Saying that wounds that are resultant from a psychic power granting a reroll from hits or wounds are not hits or wounds caused by a psychic power isn't true.

Except Doom/Warp Time didn't cause the wound, the unit's weapon/attack did

 

[Mathlete]

All the BotBG rule says is that it has to be a wound caused by a psychic power. Crownaxe is only stating that the wound's caused by doom rerolls etc are not caused by psychic power, but you've not shown how this is the case. To me, it seems obvious that a psychic power that allows, for example, failed wound rolls to reroll is causing those successful rerolled wounds.

In pure game terms; Would the wound exist without the psychic power? No. Therefore, the wound is caused by a psychic power.

Not being rude, but the people in the no camp haven't said anything within the rules that refutes my initial idea.

 

[CrownAxe]

In pure game terms; Would the wound exist without the unit's weapon/attack? No. Therefore, the wound is caused by a unit's weapon/attack.

Not being rude, but the people in the yes camp haven't said anything within the rules that refutes my initial idea.


The unit's weapon/attack does not become a psychic power when you cast Doom/Warptime does it?

 

[danceman]

I see your point but within the framework of the rules it just doesnt ring true. The psychic power didnt cause the wound. This is a very important bit in the wording, 'cause' and 'wound'. These two words always adress the wound itself, the wording is very specific with the fact is it 'the wound' which has to be 'caused' by the psychic power itself, which it hasnt.

In pure game terms; Would the wound exist without the psychic power? No. Therefore, the wound is caused by a psychic power

This is a false assumption. The model with the special save is not the target of the psychic power. The target is the model attempting to wound the model with BotBG. The attack causing the wound is not depandant on any kind of psychic power and it is 'the wound' which has to be caused by a psychic power.

Like for example the example with the lash, why would you possibly get the save because something pushed it out in the open. As with anything, for how long does these passive/retrospective/indirect psychic powers last? I mean the psychic power shot a unit in turn 1 which caused them to lose the combat in turn 4, so naturally they will get their 2+ saves now since the psychic power caused them to be fewer in numbers. This is why you're initial idea doesnt work since there is nothing which suggests it in the first place and as I've presented in the example just now you can justify anything with it.

Dont worry, you're not being rude at all. Right now though I dont know what else I can add to the discussion even though I've provided sufficent rules to refute the idea. The way I presented it above is how I've played it and I've never heard anyone do it any differently, including tournaments and similiar events. If you're still not convinced I would ask the tournament organisers of the tournament you would be attending to avoid any unnessecary rules-argument during a game.

 

[nakaruru]

This is coming from my eldar point of view so that may bias my thoughts. How is doom or guide causing the wounds? they allow rerolls not cause wounds, no where does it say that the doom is causing the wounds it is still the shots or attacks of the unit that are wounding ( if not then do rerolled powerweapons no longer ignore armor? it is a similar idea as the reroll wounded not the power weapon ). If you had a defense against the doom it would be made when the doom was cast.

If we take your stance it leads to truely bizaar chances at the 2+. For example a fortuned council wins combat you are forced to take no retreat saves. Now if the council passed 2 saves because of the fortune you would get 2 of those no retreat saves at 2+. No where did the power directly effect your unit. What about the bonuses of enhance? Surely the added WS and I made you take more wounds from attacks and do less wounds so you took even more no retreat wounds. Embolden made a unit stay in combat with you so do you now get 2+ saves against anything that unit does? How about a tank that survived you shooting at it because it had a fortuned cover save? do you now get the 2+ save against it? If it was a transport do you get 2+ saves against everything that was inside?

I do understand wanting BotBG to be more useful but if it effected anything that a psyker ever touched then it would cause way to many problems.

 

[Mathlete]

How is doom or guide causing the wounds?

By allowing to hit/ to wound rolls that would normally fail to be successful.

While it might not be the psychic power that hits and wounds, it causes other attacks that would not be successful hits or wounds be successful.

if not then do rerolled powerweapons no longer ignore armor? it is a similar idea as the reroll wounded not the power weapon

Doom treats the weapon that is hitting and wounding by it's standard rules, so rerolled power weapons would still ignore armour saves.

I'm not up for arguing for fortune - it's too complex to keep track off and clouds the situation. Enharnce doesn't count as a psychic power as no psychic test is taken, same with destructor. But enchance is similar to something like Hammerhand, which would allow for a 2+ save, as it's a psychic power.

Actually, that's a good example - hammerhand doesn't effect the BotBG unit directly, but I don't think anyone here would argue that you'd get a 2+ save vs any attacks from a character with hammerhand.

Same with Warptime - it effects the whole model. It's rerolled attacks become psychic attacks because of it.

The model with the special save is not the target of the psychic power. The target is the model attempting to wound the model with BotBG. The attack causing the wound is not depandant on any kind of psychic power and it is 'the wound' which has to be caused by a psychic power.

Doom does target the unit. If a doomed unit suffers 10 out of 11 initially succesful wounds, then these 10 would be saved against the unit standard armour save, but in my reading, if the one failure is then rerolled successfully, that 1 wound is "caused" by Doom. It doesn't exsist if the psychic power doesn't. Therefore you get a 2+.

I mean the psychic power shot a unit in turn 1 which caused them to lose the combat in turn 4, so naturally they will get their 2+ saves now since the psychic power caused them to be fewer in numbers. This is why you're initial idea doesnt work since there is nothing which suggests it in the first place and as I've presented in the example just now you can justify anything with it.

This is the best reason I've come up with so far too - it compicates the game to such a degree that it makes the power completely unwieldy. That and it's very cheap as an upgrade. But as I've said before, it's the poor wording on the rule that makes it exploitable.

The one I've been using on the no side is this; if a unit of flesh hounds loses a combat by four, and two of those wounds were caused by a doom-like power, then those two wounds would be subject to the 2+.

The arguement basically boils down to the word "cause", and when a psychic power does or doesn't cause a wound. In my opionion, if the wound wouldn't happen if not for a psychic power, that wound is caused by a psychic power.

I'd just like to say that I use BotBG the way you guys have described.

 

[ikbuh]

if not then do rerolled powerweapons no longer ignore armor? it is a similar idea as the reroll wounded not the power weapon

Doom treats the weapon that is hitting and wounding by it's standard rules, so rerolled power weapons would still ignore armour saves.

You said it yourelf. Are shuriken launchers psychic powers? No? No 2+

Doom does target the unit. If a doomed unit suffers 10 out of 11 initially succesful wounds, then these 10 would be saved against the unit standard armour save, but in my reading, if the one failure is then rerolled successfully, that 1 wound is "caused" by Doom. It doesn't exsist if the psychic power doesn't. Therefore you get a 2+.

You have contradicted yourself by saying that Doom uses the standard rules for the weapon, but then saying that those wounds are then caused by a psychic power. If I'm not mistaken, doom does not have a Strength/AP value thus it is incapable of causing wounds ergo no 2+ save. What doom does have, is a weapon being fired, said weapon has a Strength/AP value, and would therefor use the rules of the weapon.

 

[Mathlete]

Firstly, disabuse yourself of the idea that it matters about whether it's a weapon, or a psychic power that intiates the wounds. If the wording was "wounds directly caused by a psychic power" this side of the argument would be harder to do. The wording of the rule is "The Daemon has a 2+ inv save against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons", so whether the shuriken catapult becomes a psychic weapon or not is neither here nor there.

I don't think I have contradicted myself. I've stated that while doom doesn't, for example, cause the farseer to fire lightning bolts across the battle field, it does effect the dice rolls to wound. It's a psychic power that causes more wounds then would be present without it. Therefore, these extra wounds are caused by a psychic power.

The important words, again, is caused by. If something is caused by something it makes it happen right? A wound caused by doombolt counts. The ability to reroll wounds caused by doom doesn't? But both are psychic powers that have caused wounds to happen, right? If doom is not causing these wounds, then what is? It's not the shuriken catapults that already failed to wound. If doom doesn't cause these wounds, then what is it doing within the rules.

There isn't a smoking gun here, just two different interpretations of the rules. I can't say that my reading is RaI, just as you guys can't, but it is RaW.

 

[Wakkawakka]

Just my two cents.. here is how me and my group decided how to do it becuase of poor wording.

BT w/ Blessing

Bt gets doomed

Guided dire avenger shoot at BT. 30 shots.... 20 hit with first. 5 more with rerolls. Seperate the two piles

with the set of 20, 3 wounds (3 + armor). 2 more with rerolls (2+). set of five, 1 wound(2+), and 1 more with reroll(2+).

at least that is the way we worked it out with guide + doom. as for some the other ones like warptime we ruled the same way. Something like enhance..... why? its neither causing nor dealing wounds in any way. just makes them fast, no save for it.

 

[danceman]

Therefore, these extra wounds are caused by a psychic power.

No, it is not nor is does it anywhere in the rules indicate this is true. The wound is caused by the wounding effect of the shuriken catapult/battle cannon or whatever the source is. You are focusing on the word caused but forgetting the 2nd keyword which is, wound. Both these requirements needs to be met. You are not causing the wound with a psychic power BUT the wound comes from the Strength value of the weapon used vs the toughness value/Armour value of the model the weapon fired upon.

so whether the shuriken catapult becomes a psychic weapon or not is neither here nor there.

This is why it isnt. Since there are nothing which indicate that attacks from said re-rolls make subsequent attacks psychic in nature there is no logical reason to assume they are.

So I would not call your interpatation RAW, you need to apply rules as they are written and there are nothing in the description of either rules which suggest a sort of 'remains in play' effect of psychic powers nor is there anything which suggest indirected effects or any lasting effects of psychic powers in the way you speak of here.

EDIT: As per the post before shows, claiming RAW on this is a very dodgy position.

 

[Mathlete]

The wound is caused by the wounding effect of the shuriken catapult/battle cannon or whatever the source is. You are focusing on the word caused but forgetting the 2nd keyword which is, wound.

You are not causing the wound with a psychic power BUT the wound comes from the Strength value of the weapon used vs the toughness value/Armour value of the model the weapon fired upon.

I agree.

Without doom; 10 wounds, wounding on a six, result in 1 wound. This wound is saved on the normal save.

With doom; 10 wounds, wounding on a six, result in 1 wound. These 9 failed wounds are rerolled, resulting in a further 2 wounds. These two wounds are wounds that directly result from a psychic power.

The BotBG rule doesn't say anything about the power needing to be a psychic attack, like Mind War. Wounds that directly result from a psychic power are caused by that psychic power. The wounds can be caused by a shuriken catapult at the same time; it's not mutually exclusive.

Since there are nothing which indicate that attacks from said re-rolls make subsequent attacks psychic in nature there is no logical reason to assume they are.

Except that the wounds are the direct result of a psychic power's interference. They are caused by the psychic power, as without the psychic power they do not exist.

So I would not call your interpatation RAW, you need to apply rules as they are written and there are nothing in the description of either rules which suggest a sort of 'remains in play' effect of psychic powers nor is there anything which suggest indirected effects or any lasting effects of psychic powers in the way you speak of here.

There is nothing that suggests that these types of powers don't. The BotBG rule only says wounds caused by psychic powers. I read that as any wound resulting from the interference of a psychic power. Your reading isn't.

To be honest, we're getting no further. Has anyone come up against my reading in game, maybe get a ruling in tournement?

 

[nakaruru]

So how is enhance being overlooked now? It is a psychic power (don't believe me look it up ), it is always active and requires no roll. The enemy attacking with better WS and I it will make them cause more wounds. From your arguements it should be effected. Also you bypass the fortune arguement I put up before. Once again a psychic power is indirectly causing more wounds. You seem to point to doom because it rerolls wounds, so you can say it caused the extra wounds but guide and enhance can actually increase the total number of wounds taken by a larger amount.

Doom allows rerolls it doesn't cause wounds. Can you show me where it says that the rerolled wounds are caused by doom? I can't find it. Simple arguement if I doom something does it take wounds? how about if I shoot something? It seems to me only one of these two things causes wounds.