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Discussion Starter #1
I have started a Bret army recently, and my god are they powerful!
I don't care what people say they are a good army.
I have had 5 games with them so far and won all of them. They seam to do better than they should, just like other armies.
I have two big lances of knights of the realm, 60 men at arms, 32 archers, 2 trebs, 4 peg knights and characters.

They thing I have been wondering is why people think they are a bad army?
I know cav is not as good as it once was and that Brets have had little love over the years, but hey they work!

They armies I went up against are all decent list/armies bar one.
A Nurgle daemon army, MoT warriors, white lion horde high elfs, beastmen and avoidance wood elfs.
Each game bar the one vs warriors was so one sided in terms of me winning.

More people should try Brets, as the only player of them in my area no one knows how to beat them!
 

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Honestly, it's just that mathematically Brets get less for more points. What you do with Brets, you can do with Empire, Warriors Of Chaos, High Elves etc. for less points and they'll be mathematically better. Bretonnians are fun, and done well they are tactically viable, (but then, every army is tactically viable really... there's shockingly good game balance in Warhammer).

If you're running with Bretonnians and you're having fun, can win semi-reliably, and have an army you're pleased with; great. As a fellow Bret player, I wish you luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Its not a case of stats and points more of rules and items that are unique to them.
The lance formation on the charge with 18 knights is evil to behold, breaking a unit of 50 gors.
Small frontage, lots of attacks and lots of ranks makes them better than most cav.
 

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Lucas said:
I have started a Bret army recently, and my god are they powerful!
Welcome to Bretonnia! May you keep the Lady's blessing and your lances never break!

Congrats on your success and enjoyment with your current army of noble knights, I have been collecting Brets on and off for nearly twenty years and they were good back then and still today (they could use a little love though... *cough* plastic *cough* grail knights *cough*).

I too am alone in my area when it comes to the Brets, and several times I have faced an opponent who started the battle by stating "I didn't think anyone played these guys anymore"... perfect.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I see it this way, a bunch of guys on horses doing better than a bunch of guys on horses.
Its like Ogres they are just 3 wounds Orcs but do better than they should.
 

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Brets are definitely solid, more-so than people give them credit for, at least.
I do agree with Tornado however, that most of what Brets can do, you can find in another army and find them doing it just as well or else better, even if "better" just means "cheaper".
The other thing that keeps people on the "let's bash Brettonia bandwagon" is the fact that a lot of their book really is crap, and I don't think that even a fan (such as yourself) would be willing to argue that. When you can say that about an older (and therefore slimmer) book, it becomes a real downer.

What the Brets do, they do very well. It's incredibly easy to tailor against Brets though, or otherwise knock out their one-trick-pony. I think the fact that people don't, has a lot more to do with them being the underdog. People think, "oh man, I've gotta beat Daemons/WoC/Elves" and totally forget that Brets are even a thing. When people don't tailor, a well played and well-honed Bret list can go toe-to-toe with most folks' "all rounder" army. It's just harder for the Bret player.

That said, be careful about the Lance. A 3-wide Bret Lance still gets hit by a 5-wide formation of any Infantry. You also don't get as large a bonus to your attacks as you used to (and the book was "pointed out" for), since your entire second rank gets to make attacks now. So unless you have 9+ knights, you're not benefitting.
--As an example of what Tornado said, compare that to High Elf Silver Helms in a 3x3 formation, getting 100% of their attacks and with ASF and better attack stats, for roughly the same cost. All they lose out are the ranks.

I've found that it's better to use small formations of Knights - usually something like 3x2. Rather than get a single hard hit on the charge, having lots of small units lets me clear/avoid chaff (which nets me points), spread Lore of Metal punishment over a wider area, and get several successive charges off against multiple facings of an enemy unit.
 

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I also favor smaller lances and combo charge. You get a free champ, so that is an extra attack. Most of my ponies are set up with a lance of 3x3 coupled with a 3x2 and will charge in unison, as they will both fit in the front of most units. If one fails the charge, well he may try to flank the next turn or just jump in the front. This means only one fellow does not strike on the charge and the extra champ helps. To save on points, I may not even go with a banner & musician on the smaller lances.

Also, huge lances just seem to scream "Hit me with all of your magic, cannon and missle fire, please!"
 

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It's good to see some fellow Bret players! They were my first and favorite Fantasy army. They work well at what they do, but as was said above other armies can do them cheaper. What can be said is that Bret heroes are some of the most customizable in the game, as they have a ton of magic items since they are still running an older codex. (Seriously, is anyone else upset that armies now only have like 6 magic items?) They are kind of a one trick pony in what they can though, and that along with the points problem, make it more of problem of other armies being more flexible? I haven't played many games of late, however, what I see is that other armies can be a lot more versatile. That being said they are definitely still holding their own after going soo long without an update.
 

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I know this is really old but I love brets.

2 things not mentioned.

We all talk about points but in truth there not that bad, true silvers are point cheaper than a KoTR and empire are 2 points cheaper but Brets get The lance and the more important thing the protection of the Lady (intruth of equal importance) sure 9 silvers can fight in a lance but do they break stead fast, No they don't. Oh you have a hight strength to lower my armour oh wait now I have a 5+ ward save, don't mind if I do.

Lucas you said about 18 knight bus KoTR can only be taken as 15.

I have recently discovered 1 more thing Questing knights if you take them and put 3 pallys in the front rank with a 1+ save (2 of which re roll) your opponent has to hit them meaning your str 6 guys smash without taking any hits back :)
 

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I know this is really old but I love brets.

2 things not mentioned.

We all talk about points but in truth there not that bad, true silvers are point cheaper than a KoTR and empire are 2 points cheaper but Brets get The lance and the more important thing the protection of the Lady (intruth of equal importance) sure 9 silvers can fight in a lance but do they break stead fast, No they don't. Oh you have a hight strength to lower my armour oh wait now I have a 5+ ward save, don't mind if I do.
The question is what you want in a unit though. You're trading ASF, +WS, +I, and +Ld for a 5+ Ward and the ability to fight in a Lance. And compared to High Elves in particular, the lance isn't that useful. Elves can easily run 18 Silvers - sure, it costs a little more, but it's something Brets can't do without reforming on the second turn (meaning no charge until the 3rd turn). The result is a unit that actually loses ranks slower than the Knights, although it does start with fewer of them (offset however, by WS5 Rerolls)
With Empire Knights, there are tons of characters you can add who will boost their abilities into the stratosphere, while Brets have nothing like that themselves. Further, Empire Knights aren't just a little cheaper than KotR - they're massively discounted over Questing Knights, and have a better armor save. They can also fill either role (lances, greatweapons) in Core, which is a big deal.

I have recently discovered 1 more thing Questing knights if you take them and put 3 pallys in the front rank with a 1+ save (2 of which re roll) your opponent has to hit them meaning your str 6 guys smash without taking any hits back :)
Most armies have a way to do this. It's what I do with my Empire Knights - it's not all characters up front, but there are enough of them that very few attacks will carry back to my regiment.

Ultimately though, the weakness of the Bret book isn't the Knights, points, statlines, or anything like that. Because both you, and the OP are correct: Bret Knights are vicious. The problem is that the book is very one-dimensional. Since there are 3 units fulfilling the "Knights with Lances" role, the competition is fierce - only one of them is really worth taking. There's not much deviation from the list, because only certain units work - the rest are rubbish. To say that Brets are good isn't a lie - they can certainly win games. But so can Tomb King armies if they're built correctly, and so will Beastmen. The trouble is that if you slip up even a little bit in how you've built your list, you're going to get wrecked, it seems.
 

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Yeah they can only be used one way really but that way is soooooo good they are one of my favourite armies they are characterful and painted they are beautiful. They do lack some decent choices and doubt they will get a new book as what chould you add foot knights revamp grail knights.

Aren't silvers only Ws 4? True asf is great and it annoys me that brets don't get access to light magic which would be really good for them.

It think that the brets could do with a few changes. Broad swords for +1 str on kotr and grail knights, lance breaks steadfast on the charge and access to all 8 lores of magic.
 

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I think that a lot of the best changes for Brets would be the historically accurate ones.
Add crossbows, perhaps even with pavises like the old Braganza's Besiegers unit. Keep their shooting cheap, but make it good - they'll never be able to play a Gunline army, but they could at least have a reasonable shooting phase.

Give them foot-knights, and put them in Core, with a wide range of weaponry available (Greatweapons, Halberds, flails/maces, HW&S) and price them right at the mid-way point between KoTR and [email protected]

Dump off Questing Knights altogether - make Greatweapons an option for all Knights except Errants (no reason really, except to differentiate them between KotRs).

As for "Fantasy-themed" stuff:

Make the Grail Relique a strong area-buff like the Empire Luminark/Hurricanum.
Give them all 8 Lores or at least the traditional "good" lores (Life, Light, Heavens, possibly Beasts, Fire, Metal as well)

Ditch the Lance Bonus as we know it. Knights now fight in 3 ranks on the charge, and gain ranks at 3-wide (horde at 6-wide). No real need to break Steadfast on the charge. Impact Hits of some kind would be cool, but again - unnecessary in my opinion.

Part of my "Kingdoms of Men" project was being geared towards a rewrite of the Bret list. The idea was that you could build a rough estimate of a "Bretonnian" army from the book, with all of the major choices included, and it would be like an updated Bret list. The project stalled out when I was trying to implement the idea of having multiple 'army-types' in the same list, with some kind of selection restriction (the real idea being that players could use Historicals collections to play WHFB, or create their own 'fan army' from the templates) was really hard to put into words. The second big reason that it stalled, is that 9th is right around the corner, and it might all become entirely redundant (and something I'm no longer interested in) if GW completely upends the game.
 
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