[Colonel Graff]

Just like the title says: design the most effective 2000 point Guard army. It must be able to win against other win-at-all-costs armies. Hopefully my theory about the lack of cheese available to guard is wrong.One other entirely secondary consideration is the ease of play - this list should be able to finish a game in two hours, and play well on a 6' by 4' table. In other words, the list would be played in a tournament setting, so things like time, table size, and objectives should be taken into consideration.Remember, there are no points for composition or fluff, just winning.

 

[Certs]

i think some consider the guard in general cheesy, though i'm not saying they are. but my last trip home saw a standard 1500 list of 80-90 guardsmen and 4-5 tanks go about 24-1-2 doing normal missions on a regularly set-up board.

now, if you mean are there things we can exploit specifically that are available on the army list there really isn't much out of what players usually take; it's not like some other armies where you can min/max on assault cannons (or the old eldar and starcannons). but in general, just taking a balanced imperial guard army in and of itself is competitive enough for most other lists to contend with. w/ the large amount of gun-troops we can put on the board combined with 3-4 tanks with av14 pointing at the enemy's guns. IMO, at most, specializing your guard list towards a specific theme/playstyle opposed to the guard norm tends to give the enemy more of a chance to beat you.

well sometimes it just feels like the more guard infantry you bring, the better you'll do (i think someone else once posted that a tendency of the more veteran guard players is moving towards all-infantry armies).

 

[InquisitorAffe]

All infantry gunline led by Creed. Toss an honorifica on a JO somewhere too in cast you face someone with a lot of templates and need to spread out. Couldn't be simpler. The 'optimal' balance of las/missile to heavy bolters is debatable, but it's mostly academic. Some people take a Basilisk or two with indirect, which can be handy if you need to deal with someone hiding on an objective.

Only challenge is painting them all.

 

[taipan338]

Originally posted by: InquisitorAffe
Only challenge is painting them all.

I feel the pain man.....

 

[Cadaver Junkie]

Its pretty simple to cheese out a guard army.

Here's a list of a couple of things you can include in 2000 points.


1: 7 Deep striking demolition charges. This includes 2 cheap as chips special weapon support squads, and 5 last chancer sub units.

2: All officers (bar, maybe, one) are JO's, with 4 plasma guns, also deepstriking.

3: An infantry platoon, maybe heavy bolters/autocannons/missile launchers and plasmaguns, so that you can also take

4: A 50 man conscript squad, with an attached independant commissar. Give these guys flamers, or, especially if you are in a cityfight tournament where you have the ammo dump stratagem, give 'em 5 heavy bolters instead. Choice! (they have to kill 45 conscripts before they start hitting the heavy bolters, especially if the one officer you don't deepstrike has a standard bearer and Iron Discipline). Who cares if they have BS2, with the lasguns they are better than standard guardsmen (i'm serious), and with the heavy bolters its still a lot of dakka.

5: At least 2 basilisks with indirect fire. One in each corner, if you can safely manage it.

Oh, and 6: Dont forget to take min max plasma vet squads and deepstrike them too.

Then you can start the filler.


There's also this option:

1) Take a JO with a standard bearer. Give him a mortar. Take 2 mortar heavy weapon teams.

2) Take another JO, this time part of a heavy weapons platoon. Give him a mortar, and take 3 mortar support squads.

3) Repeat step 2 another 2 times. Tally so far: 37 mortars, 15 scoring units. And you are still under 1000 points.

4) Take a bunch of sentinels with lascannons/multilasers, deepstrike these things if you have to. You need some anti-tank guns.

5) Take whatever troop choices you want. If you feel like it, do the conscript thing, its always fun no matter the army. In fact, why dont you also take the 7 deepstriking demolition charges, if you can fit it in. arty:

Only hindrance might be finishing in 2 hours, but I sure you can find a way around that problem...that and the fact that you will be really making your opponent angry with all those scatter shots, but hey.

Enjoy!


(I guess my point is, guard CAN be cheesy, should you think about it just a little!)

 

[Commisarlestat]

Some good stuff there cadaver. Unfortunately there are lots of ways of taking that army down. Simply deepstrike yourself, Chaos fast assault units and you are done. Thats just the first problem I thought.

Also you said that conscripts are better than guardsmen with lasrifles? Please explain this logic. For the points conscripts, guardsmen and vets all cause the same lasrifle damage.

A

 

[SimulatedSnowman]

Some good stuff there cadaver. Unfortunately there are lots of ways of taking that army down. Simply deepstrike yourself, Chaos fast assault units and you are done. Thats just the first problem I thought.

If you can come up with a legal army that is completely and totally unbeatable, I'll be massively impressed.

Also you said that conscripts are better than guardsmen with lasrifles? Please explain this logic. For the points conscripts, guardsmen and vets all cause the same lasrifle damage.

I'm assuming that what he means is the volume of fire put out by conscripts outweighs the slightly more skillful fire of a regular guardsman on a per point basis.

 

[Fenix1776]

Point for point a fearless 52 wound squad is pretty effective.

 

[SimulatedSnowman]

Point for point a fearless 52 wound squad is pretty effective.

Yeah that too!

Still, I can't get over the fact that grots... GROTS have a better BS than conscripts.

 

[Commisarlestat]

but point for point a guardsman is actually exactly the same and so is a vet. conscripts are worse when it comes to the other weapons as they pay even more!
TBH you have same chance per point so its just more flesh!

A

 

[Cadaver Junkie]

Some good stuff there cadaver. Unfortunately there are lots of ways of taking that army down. Simply deepstrike yourself, Chaos fast assault units and you are done. Thats just the first problem I thought.

A

Yeah, true- but there are problems with every cheese list. For every army out there, there is always a way to easily bring it down, if you have the right stuff.

And about deepstriking yourself, well, then it just comes down to a gamble, as in, who can deepstrike second. I wouldn't really be worried by chaos fast assault units with these builds anyway

but point for point a guardsman is actually exactly the same and so is a vet. conscripts are worse when it comes to the other weapons as they pay even more!
TBH you have same chance per point so its just more flesh!

A

Well, its true that heavy/special weapons cost more with a conscript, so with these they aren't as strong, but as I said - still a lot of dakka!!!

As for the lasgun, on average accuracy, yes, they are equal with normal guardsmen, but point for point you get more warm bodies on the field! You still hit marines in hth on 4's, you can still benefit from close order drill, and there's always the chance you can actually roll well and kill more of the enemy than the same points worth of normal guardsmen. So yeah, much better, in my opinion!

Point for point a fearless 52 wound squad is pretty effective.

Not actually true - they only ignore the first failed test, after that the commissar leads the squad, and they can break as normal (albeit they get to use the commissar's higher ld before doing so). True story. Well... Its in the FAQ (he executes a model then takes over the leadership of the squad).

Many people might disagree, but hey, thats how I interpret it anyway. But still - awesome unit!

 

[Andusciassus]

Just a little Conscript comment while passing by, they do not benefit from the Standard. Still pretty mean with the IC commissar though.

 

[Fenix1776]

Not actually true - they only ignore the first failed test, after that the commissar leads the squad, and they can break as normal (albeit they get to use the commissar's higher ld before doing so). True story. Well... Its in the FAQ (he executes a model then takes over the leadership of the squad).

If there is no squad leader the commissar kills a single member of the unit. There is no leader to replace and so the cycle continues. At least that's how I understand the FAQ.

However, I was thinking more along the lines of adding Gaunt to the platoon and keeping him in the back of the squad until combat is reached. Then he can slowly move his way forward, and we don't have to contemplate the poor rules writing

 

[Cadaver Junkie]

Just a little Conscript comment while passing by, they do not benefit from the Standard. Still pretty mean with the IC commissar though.

Yeah true - I forgot! Ah well. Still heinous!

If there is no squad leader the commissar kills a single member of the unit. There is no leader to replace and so the cycle continues. At least that's how I understand the FAQ.

However, I was thinking more along the lines of adding Gaunt to the platoon and keeping him in the back of the squad until combat is reached. Then he can slowly move his way forward, and we don't have to contemplate the poor rules writing

Your latter idea aint so bad - could work well!


As for the former, the FAQ simply states that the unit is treated as passing the moral test once the commissar executes a grunt if there is no higher ranked soldier, that this is how you apply this part of the summary execution rule.

Now, I dont have the codex on me atm, but i'm pretty sure that the wording of the rule summary execution itself states that the commissar then takes over the leadership of the squad he is in, after the execution.


You need to remember that there are two parts to the summary execution rule, first there is the explanation of the execution and morale passing (which needed clarification in the FAQ), followed by the second part where the commissar assumes leadership of the squad. The FAQ does not stop the second part from occuring.

This means that yeah, the execution thing only works once. If you use this particular set of logic anyway (i'm pretty damned sure i'm correct, but there are others who are equally sure that they are correct, I guess its just something you should discuss with your opponent before the game).

 

[Fenix1776]

I give my opponents the Steve Jackson ruling on that set of rules (AKA dice off). Mostly because the rules concerning this particular issue are very gray and I'm more interested in having a good time than arguing about semantics when I get my army out.

;Y

 

[Commisarlestat]

I remember the commisar execution debate, that went round in circles for about a month. We ended up with both of the explanations given being equally viable so said to dice off if there was any disagreement.
I'm on the continual execution ruling myself as the single execution ruling can be taken a step further to make the commisar top himself, nasty business these commisars! I should know hehe,
*sweeps storm cape aside and produces pistol, knocking glass off table in process*
smooth sidles away to shoot some conscripts for breaking munitorium property....

A

 

[Fenix1776]

Tank Shock Option:

3 Heavy Bolter Russes
3 Hellhounds w/stubber, extra armor, smoke
3 Full Grenadier Squads w/two plasma and power weapon vet. Chimera w/multi laser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber, extra armor, and smoke
3 Drop Troop Vets with 3 melta guns
1 Command Squad w/sharpshooters, JO & 4 Melta guns. Chimera w/multi laser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber, extra armor, and smoke

This puts 10 sets of tread on the board. Relatively small numbers of infantry but lots of special weapons. Vets and officer retinue to take out tanks with meltas, Leman Russ Main Battle Tanks, Hellhounds, and Chimera's to lay the hurt on infantry. Solid list with good cheese potential.